202 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Karl Streiger, on 05 April 2018 - 04:07 AM, said:

you really know how to burn through "my time" - I had only made a very very very short attempt in creating aerospace fighters and totally failed.... just in the concept phase.

a aerospace fighter needs fuel lots of fuel, it need to be hypersonic capable or need a special profile to make the entry in one piece.... heck I bet that 90% of the BT aerospace units would only make it as burning debries onto a planet.....

but I will try....by Blake I will try.

You're welcome?

But I seriously think you like the challenge, I mean you did such a wonderful job with the Yellowjacket, I'm sure you could do wonders with the Corsair.

[Metus regem]

Karl, I've got a better challenge for you, if you want to take it on...

Thanks to the "BT trailer" thread, how about doing a good ol' Leopard class dropship?

Bet you could make one that actually makes sense....

[Koniving]

Scale as well as top and side views are on the BT trailer thread.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 06 April 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

Scale as well as top and side views are on the BT trailer thread.

True, but I think Karl could do a better job, I mean he did such a wonderful job with my yellowjacket.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 06 April 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

True, but I think Karl could do a better job, I mean he did such a wonderful job with my yellowjacket.

Tempted to do a "Strike" style campaign in Battletech, using a helicopter.
Yellow Jacket seems suited for the occasional sortie...

Edited by Koniving, 06 April 2018 - 12:40 PM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 06 April 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Tempted to do a "Strike" style campaign in Battletech, using a helicopter.
Yellow Jacket seems suited for the occasional sortie...

With out the punishing vechile rules, Yellowjackets are actually down right nasty they can take a cERPPC to the nose and keep going... I've got a 3025 era version that mounts a PPC rather than a gauss... it's silly fast and really well armoured...

Black Wasp

Spoiler

Black Wasp

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-D-A
Production Year: 3025
Cost: 1,420,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 793

Power Plant: 130 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 97.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 151.2 km/h
Armor: Standard Armor
Armament:
1 PPC
Manufacturer:
Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 15 points 3.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 130 7.00
Cruise MP: 9
Flank MP: 14
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Control Equipment: 1.50
Lift Equipment: 3.00
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 136 8.50

Armor
Factor
Front 41
Left/Right 33/33
Rear 27
Rotor 2

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Spaces Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC FR 10 1 7.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 8
9v 1 1 1 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: ENE

[Karl Streiger]

Well the Leo?
I could start with the MWO model although the engines are much to small and of course there is not enough space for the fuel.

As a remeìnder the 5tin fuel for the corsair are 5m3 when using water as storrage(it's broken into hydrogen for cruise propellant and reactor fuel. For afterburner the Corsair could pull 3g (the maximum I can get without insane drives) those 3g can be applied for ~2h
exact the same time it should last when you use the SO advanced fuel consumption rule for fuel points.

With a hyper sonic tail the corsair might be able to oull 8500kph in atmosphere.

[evilauthor]

Karl Streiger, on 06 April 2018 - 11:54 PM, said:

Well the Leo?
I could start with the MWO model although the engines are much to small and of course there is not enough space for the fuel.

You have no idea...

*Pulls out TRO3057*

The Leopard Dropship (original Succession Wars version) masses 1720 tons, spends only 123 tons on fuel, and has a ton/Burn-Day rating of 1.84. That last stat means that when cruising across a star system at single gravity of constant acceleration, it spends 1.84 tons of fuel per day to maintain that acceleration. That's not "one short burn for a few minutes and then coast the rest of the day". That's having the engines apply constant 1G thrust for every minute of every hour of the day, and only having 1.84 tons less fuel at the end of that 24 hour day.

Which basically gives the Leopard a fuel endurance of ~66.8 days before its fuel tanks run dry. This is of course assuming that all it does is thrust 1G of course. Leaving a planet requires a bit more thrust and combat maneuvers comsume fuel at a faster rate.

And how much volume does 123 tons of fuel take up? Let me put it this way, a mech bay (of which the Leopard has four) is allocated 150 tons and is mostly empty space... and that weight includes the mech carried in the bay as well as any extra supplies for it like spare parts and ammo.

[Karl Streiger]

One thing I will so is to drop data given from the construction rules. I will not use the 400Mm exhaust velocity. And even with only 11-12Mm the exhaust would kill every life it is pointed at.

A spaceport would condem every person to a dead of radiation poisoning. If the engine PPC would not break the crust earlier.
No the drive of a dropship need to have a kind of closed cycle fusion air ram thing maybe some carbon based auxiliary engines too

Same with the mechbay when you would put more weapons and armor on the hull of a ship you would be able to build it more compact - spending less mass for structure and with lower volume also less weight for armor although it's thicker.

It will last some weeks to do the Leo for a tougher Sicfi setting

[evilauthor]

Karl Streiger, on 07 April 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

One thing I will so is to drop data given from the construction rules. I will not use the 400Mm exhaust velocity. And even with only 11-12Mm the exhaust would kill every life it is pointed at.

A spaceport would condem every person to a dead of radiation poisoning. If the engine PPC would not break the crust earlier.
No the drive of a dropship need to have a kind of closed cycle fusion air ram thing maybe some carbon based auxiliary engines too

Same with the mechbay when you would put more weapons and armor on the hull of a ship you would be able to build it more compact - spending less mass for structure and with lower volume also less weight for armor although it's thicker.

It will last some weeks to do the Leo for a tougher Sicfi setting

There's fan theories floating around that Dropship engines can become air breathing in atmosphere, you know so they can reduce exhaust energies to something the ground can survive by increasing exhaust mass and VASTLY reducing exhaust velocities without using up any "fuel".

Also, the mech bays are kind of the point with the Leopard. The Leopard is a mech transport first and foremost. If it's not going to carry mechs, then there's no point to its existence. If you want supersized fighter or small warship, there are other Dropship classes that do just that.

[Leone]

Actually, there's also the Leopard CV that works as an aerospace carrier and is oft used to protect more vulnerable dropships.

~Leone.

[Metus regem]

Leone, on 08 April 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

Actually, there's also the Leopard CV that works as an aerospace carrier and is oft used to protect more vulnerable dropships.

~Leone.

I like the CV version, one of my RT companies make extensive use of them for their L.A.M. company...

[Karl Streiger]

serious.... the CV is an issue.... consider that a Leopard might carry Chippewas.....
I think the YB-35 is a good proxy for a Riever or Chippewa.... whooping 52m wingspan....

on a side note the MWO Leopard doesn't seem to have hangars for ASFs.... ok there are two "doors" but you would hardly fit a BF109 in there..... the hangar for every kind of mechs would consume almost the whole body...
(about the dropping) there are doors to drop mechs right through the floor....
Although when I want to drop a King Crab I will have some issues with size again.
(When I can drop a KGC there, I can put two Commandos in another hangar (even with more MC style scaling)

...wasn't the Leopard supposed to have 8 vehicles instead of 4 Mechs, too? So I must store two of my Goblins in such a hangar....
.... well there is the Leopard PWS ---- so a fourth version for the Ship Killing Missiles

[Koniving]

Didn't see mention of vehicles other than mechs. Stands to reason, though. However they have many vehicle-exclusive dropships so other than "I don't have the resources or funds for other dropships", I don't see why they would use it.

Given the Battletech layout of a curved top and a flat bottom that expands outward beyond the doors, vehicles couldn't even enter or leave this thing through any means except the Aerotech hangar, so any vehicles used to move parts are stuck on the ship until it offloads completely unless there's some kind of back hatch.

The MWO/"Harebrained" design in which they just use a modified version of MWO's dropship is curved downward and as such could load them.

MW5's version is... I think it is more of a box than a curved design. But it features bottom ramps, too, which would allow vehicles though the ramp is very steep...

I'm surprised mechs can climb it given PGI's trackrecord for "hill climb."

[evilauthor]

Karl Streiger, on 08 April 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

serious.... the CV is an issue.... consider that a Leopard might carry Chippewas.....
I think the YB-35 is a good proxy for a Riever or Chippewa.... whooping 52m wingspan....

The Chippewa comes with fold up wings.

Quote

A heavy fighter, the Chippewa utilizes its large wings to provide added maneuverability when fighting in an atmosphere. The outer portions of each wing can retract inward, allowing for the fighter to be stored aboard transports more easily.

Edited by evilauthor, 09 April 2018 - 08:54 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

so I started to do the internals:

Spoiler

15 cabines including a bunk-bed with dresser and a folding table below, a shower (gravity necessary) and a null-g toilet
4 Mechbays - well they are rather big (although lore described them as very very cramped)
about the fighters- well I did use the 3d Chippewea that you can find on sarna.net - and folded the wings....
I can put two fighters in the Leopard - but the progress auf launching will include that the "front" of the Leopard will open like the bow on a ferry.
Maybe I add the "launch-pod" for MechDrops there too. (I will remove the "drop-doors" that are included in the original MWO model (yet to be seen) - so the central path is for deploying Mechs from orbit (so it need to be that big)

The whole rear section is for the atmospheric fusion ram jet or the maneuver drive as well as the transit drive (the transit drive will be mounted at the bottom) - currently I consider to keep the ~128tons of water as fuel - but with 11km/s exhaust velocity turned into hydrogen its hardly enough for 12h of 1g acceleration....

- The Dropshio Jumpship Source Book - mentioned the transit drive for the Buccaneer and the Leopard CV(the missing - so up is the front) - there is also a picture of the Buccaneer with the transit drive - it can only pull 1g at maximum,

This means evilauthor is correct about the all the time 1g burn - for most dropships - however the Leopard CV or ships without transit-drive might accelerate with higher acceleration and coast for the rest of the time.


- next step is to put the Chippewa and maybe the Stuka together (roughly) to get an better feel for ASFs and a idea about their real size

---

Now hear this - some calculation.....
I have a heavy stomach ache in granting the fusion torch drives of the Leopard a whooooooping exhaust velocity of 60.000km/s or 0.2c - with ~300tons of fuel and two planet killing 18 TW engines - the Leopard can accelerate for 7 Days (with 15hs reserve) with 0.5g.
With accelerating 3.5days and decelerating 3.5days - the Leopard is coasting for 5 days - when he has to travel the distance earth-saturn.

When not breaking the water into hydrogen first and just adding it into the manouver drive as extra mass - the Leopard can pull 2gs for 11hrs.

total mass of the Leopard is now 2400tons however

---

on a second note - the engine / wing block of the Leo might be pivotable - question is how much force can a "ring" adsorb -

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 April 2018 - 10:35 PM.

[Koniving]

Want a really fun wrench into mech scale, Karl? Check out Chameleon artwork on MUL. Especially the jihad variant which gives a sense of scale.

[Koniving]

Side note. The details on mech toilets suggest that they have "sonic shower" technology. Which given how much water is coveted in the but universe would make sense.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 12 April 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Want a really fun wrench into mech scale, Karl? Check out Chameleon artwork on MUL. Especially the jihad variant which gives a sense of scale.

you mean this?

Spoiler

* i will start to put pictures in spoilers, to conserve mobil data

Koniving, on 12 April 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

Side note. The details on mech toilets suggest that they have "sonic shower" technology. Which given how much water is coveted in the but universe would make sense.

Well a sonic shower should work even with zero-g.....but i hardly believe that they can work.... ah its a hydrosonic shower - that uses water steam and sonic vibration..... (would that work for hair too?)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 April 2018 - 10:38 PM.

[Koniving]

Yes.

(And in general you can tell by the cockpit design that it isn't very big; but given it is a pure energy build I suppose it doesn't have to be. No moving parts for any kind of ammunition storage, no necessary additional bulk, pure standard armor/structure build, standard heatsinks, the only bulky thing it has is a large laser and that's held externally. Given its nature, I think I'll be adding it to a certain campaign mission too.)

I'm not sure. I always wondered how a sonic shower would avoid bothering the ear drums. Or how it would separate dirt from the body without separating...virtually everything else.

But apparently, the toilets in mechs do not use water to flush. And it stands to reason the toilets in all reactor-powered vehicles that would have one would be similarly designed. The demand for the supply of water makes it very likely that they would solve showers in some similar way (though I've found nothing on the topic).

Edited by Koniving, 13 April 2018 - 06:09 AM.