58 replies to this topic

[l3elthaz0r]

Don't omnimechs already add a great new dimension of play due to the fact that you can mix and match hardpoints? Then again I haven't played any clan mechs except recently bought timberwolves during the sale. I think that having fixed XL engines and jumpjets etc is a brilliant way to balance it. I don't get why everyone just says there isn't enough tonnage. You can literally put hardpoints wherever you want. That's enough to offset the disadvantages.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Baulven, on 09 October 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

Accept that you can't have all the lore.

Where did I write "I want all the lore"?

Are you imagining things to give detriment a post you are not agree with?

[kesmai]

Listen to Dimento, or even better do not listen to the op.
These ideas are not thought through.
The best of two worlds minmax approach seems to be tempting, but is a dead end.
AND it'll be a step further to a generic robot shooter, pgi has left out enough battletech in mwo.
Do not encourage them to take a next step.

Edited by kesmai, 10 October 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[BoldricKent]

I love this treads, while i understand the frustration of every non-timby-kodiak clan mech, during this particular event
i been running only clan mech, not the frontline stuff (adder,hunchie,orion, nova) and i find the difference between IS
and Clan more then noticeable (lighter weapons, higher alpha faster cooldown) apart from huchie other 3 seems to be
quite durable compering to same size IS mech ( Orion is not on par with Wrahamer but far better then Archer or even
Black Knight).
So calling out for changes to omnimech without considering overall balance like in post above is always gonna
sparkle a flame and justly so.
I think that all mech using a standard structure should receive durability buffs (not quirks), that would go along with
lore and wouldnt so dramatically influence balance.

[Baulven]

See here is the thing I think is hilarious, wait until we eventually have this same conversation about IS omnis. I will be sure to simply post this thread as a response.

And this is mechwarrior not BT. The two systems aren't equal and never will be. The moment you try to hamstring the system further for the lore, when the lore isn't even given a nod at this point is silly.

[TorinZ]

Yeah, I doubt many of the first IS omnis will be viable with the current Omni restrictions. I am not even sure if all of them even had DHS, the Strider and Owens do not show DHS on sarna. Then you have the 50t BJ-O sporting an XL engine, which might put it at the high end of the 60s kph after speed tweak, base was 64kph. Not sure the extra weight for weapons will really be better than speed in a medium. Guess we will see what PGI does when we get to that point.

[Mystere]

Baulven, on 10 October 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

And this is mechwarrior not BT. The two systems aren't equal and never will be.

I have always found this statement very silly, unless of course what posters actually meant was that MW developers were/are completely incapable of making the game follow BT due to technical limitations at the time or plain and simple incompetence.

Edited by Mystere, 10 October 2016 - 06:53 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

l3elthaz0r, on 09 October 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Don't omnimechs already add a great new dimension of play due to the fact that you can mix and match hardpoints? Then again I haven't played any clan mechs except recently bought timberwolves during the sale. I think that having fixed XL engines and jumpjets etc is a brilliant way to balance it. I don't get why everyone just says there isn't enough tonnage. You can literally put hardpoints wherever you want. That's enough to offset the disadvantages.

The Timber Wolf is with the Kodiak the spear of the clan mechs and of course the Timby has no tonnage "problems" simply because it has endo and ferro unlocked. But how many Summoners, Warhawks or Hellbringers do you see compaired to the others? If the Hellbringers wouldn't have ecm, no one would pilot it.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gladius Vittoris, on 09 October 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

and this is esactly the reason why we should not want to screw that little piece of lore mwo still has, what do you think?
And for what?
Why do you still write "omnimech" when it's clear for everybody that you mean "summoner"?
And for what? do you really think the summoner would perform better with, what?, 3 tons more? LOL
Anyway summoner it's gonna have 2 high monted E hardpoints, and I assure you, it's going to be very effective.
Don't worry, you'll perform better with your summoner.
Also I see a lot of players I drop with, doing solid numbers with summoners.
So, maybe, once again, it's because of poor results that poor pilots want to do some change to the game that it's going to ruin it.
Nothing new here, we 've already seen that.


Do a thread about how to bring MORE lore in mwo, not to destroy it.

if its Impeding Balance, why wouldnt i want it to Change?
which is more Important, adding in lore in the Form of Story in game play,
or ditching that and having the only Lore holdback a whole catigory of mechs,
because i can assure you that when IS OmniMechs come out they wont be TBR good,
-
also im a Chicken Walker Guy my self, care more for my ADRs/WHKs than my SMN,

Dimento Graven, on 09 October 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

You can make Omnimechs as configurable as you want as long as you do the following first:

1. Remove the free CASE
2. Add a slot and a ton to the weight of endo and ferro
3. Increase clan XL engine size by 2
4. Remove side torso loss survivability of Clan XL's
5. Increase weight and size of most clan weaponry
6. Make the Clan targeting computer as equally useless as the IS Command Couch

Until you do those things, Omnis must remain as they are: Clan 'mechs that can boat the ever livin' sheeeiiite out of CUACs and belch out crap tons of 'spray-n-pray' damage.

or we could(see Below)

Mystere, on 09 October 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm of a different take:

• eliminate all quirks used to buff any and all mechs and just use them as "flavor" between variants
  
• start locking stuff on Battlemechs

Power creep is avoided as an added bonus.

but that would cause much more Tears,

l3elthaz0r, on 09 October 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Don't omnimechs already add a great new dimension of play due to the fact that you can mix and match hardpoints? Then again I haven't played any clan mechs except recently bought timberwolves during the sale. I think that having fixed XL engines and jumpjets etc is a brilliant way to balance it. I don't get why everyone just says there isn't enough tonnage. You can literally put hardpoints wherever you want. That's enough to offset the disadvantages.

yes and no,
=Yes= assuming the Variants released for you OmniMech have lots of combinations,
as well as Endo & Ferro, with just the Right Engine in Just the Right Configuration(SCR/TBR)
=No= if your Hard point Starved ADR/SHC/SMN/WHK, or Over-Engine'd VPR/IFR/GAR/EXE,

kesmai, on 10 October 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Listen to Dimento, or even better do not listen to the op.
These ideas are not thought through.
The best of two worlds minmax approach seems to be tempting, but is a dead end.
AND it'll be a step further to a generic robot shooter, pgi has left out enough battletech in mwo.
Do not encourage them to take a next step.

why not listen, and make up your own thoughts?
also it is well thought out, with Examples and math on what would Change,
this only allows OmniMechs to Compete with Unrestricted BattleMechs and Acheive Balance,
this isnt a IS vs Clan Topic, this is a BattleMech vs OmniMech Topic, and Covers Both Factions,

BoldricKent, on 10 October 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

I love this treads, while i understand the frustration of every non-timby-kodiak clan mech, during this particular event
i been running only clan mech, not the frontline stuff (adder,hunchie,orion, nova) and i find the difference between IS
and Clan more then noticeable (lighter weapons, higher alpha faster cooldown) apart from huchie other 3 seems to be
quite durable compering to same size IS mech ( Orion is not on par with Wrahamer but far better then Archer or even
Black Knight).
So calling out for changes to omnimech without considering overall balance like in post above is always gonna
sparkle a flame and justly so.
I think that all mech using a standard structure should receive durability buffs (not quirks), that would go along with
lore and wouldnt so dramatically influence balance.

See Above Response,

Baulven, on 10 October 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

See here is the thing I think is hilarious, wait until we eventually have this same conversation about IS omnis. I will be sure to simply post this thread as a response.

And this is mechwarrior not BT. The two systems aren't equal and never will be. The moment you try to hamstring the system further for the lore, when the lore isn't even given a nod at this point is silly.

I would love IS OmniMech, which this Topic is also For,
i dont think People realize Quirks wont Save IS OmniMechs,
Mechs that have Fixed Case, Fixed MLs(when Er are Avalable) Fixed Flamers, Fixed BAP and CC,
this Topic is for Both IS and Clan, so that the Problem can be Fixed before the Release of IS OmniMechs,

TorinZ, on 10 October 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

Yeah, I doubt many of the first IS omnis will be viable with the current Omni restrictions. I am not even sure if all of them even had DHS, the Strider and Owens do not show DHS on sarna. Then you have the 50t BJ-O sporting an XL engine, which might put it at the high end of the 60s kph after speed tweak, base was 64kph. Not sure the extra weight for weapons will really be better than speed in a medium. Guess we will see what PGI does when we get to that point.

Exactly which is why i want things changed before IS OmniMechs,

[Graugger]

Technically they were able to do most of these changes to their Omni-mechs its just that once they did the Omni-mech was forced into the rules of a battle-mech - IE the currently mounted omni-pods couldn't be removed.

So as long as an Omni-mech has its default pods, sure go and make all aspects of it modifiable like a regular battle-mech but when they do they won't be able to put a B pod an an A Chassis.

It keeps the restrictions when you jigsaw but when you don't its quite malleable.

I'd just love to be able to put 4x LB-20x cannons on my DW.

Edited by Graugger, 10 October 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Gladius Vittoris, on 09 October 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

NO.

Totally useless.
It ruins that little bit of lore we have, and it is totally useless if you cannot also change engine, etc.

[Redacted]

Maybe you should learn to forum better....you aren't suppose to discuss moderation for one and two, as long as no one is being rude you can have disputes and even be a troll if you want despite what you may think people can have differing opinions here and its isnt rules for moderation.

I like the idea by the way Andi, its a step in the right direction for poor clams but may be a bit overzealous. Only way to find out is to ask for these kinda of changes in a PTS and get people to show up and try it.

Should be the next questions in your poll, would you show up to a PTS that hosted these changes.

Edited by draiocht, 10 October 2016 - 08:41 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Gladius Vittoris]

Revis Volek, on 10 October 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

I like the idea by the way Andi, its a step in the right direction for poor clams

Can you give a list a poor clams?
'cause the only one ppl say to be poor is the summoner and, as said, I see pilots doing fairly well in it.

oh, and please don't write the Mist Lynx

Edited by Gladius Vittoris, 10 October 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[SirNotlag]

there is already a topic of this so i don't feel like arguing anymore but yes to unlocking endo and FF I'd keep the locked components except for a few special cases (looking at you mist lynx) though as they add character to the mechs. This brings up the lower end omnis without buffing the already powerful omni mechs, so the clan side is more level out for balance.

Now we just need to figure out some way to effectivly buff the under performing IS mechs. Maybe bring out LFE's <shrug>

[SirNotlag]

Gladius Vittoris, on 10 October 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Can you give a list a poor clams?
'cause the only one ppl say to be poor is the summoner and, as said, I see pilots doing fairly well in it.

oh, and please don't write the Mist Lynx

As requested mechs that benefit from this:
Nova
Mad dog
Hellbringer
Summoner
Some people have stated being able to removing FF from the Night Gyr would help it as it would get more slots
Gargoyle
Warhawk
Executioner
DireWolf

**** clan omnis not helped by this:
Mist lynx (unless its bap becomes removable)
Ice Ferret

We also have to consider that it stops mechs from being Dead on arrival if we have more ability to customise them and make them effective.

[Revis Volek]

Gladius Vittoris, on 10 October 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Can you give a list a poor clams?
'cause the only one ppl say to be poor is the summoner and, as said, I see pilots doing fairly well in it.

oh, and please don't write the Mist Lynx

SirNotlag, on 10 October 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

As requested mechs that benefit from this:
Nova
Mad dog
Hellbringer
Summoner
Some people have stated being able to removing FF from the Night Gyr would help it as it would get more slots
Gargoyle
Warhawk
Executioner
DireWolf

**** clan omnis not helped by this:
Mist lynx (unless its bap becomes removable)
Ice Ferret

We also have to consider that it stops mechs from being Dead on arrival if we have more ability to customise them and make them effective.

Gargolye, Mad Dog and Summoner being the worst offender currently IMO.

Why not the MLX? The MLX is also a poor clam but not because of lacking Endo or FF it due to its huge arms, lego mech weapons hurt it in this aspect and having no hardpoints in anything but arms exacerbates this.

Getting the BAP removed would be a great boon to it alone. Fixed equipment is another thing that plays a role in poor clams being poor.

Edited by Revis Volek, 10 October 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Graugger, on 10 October 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

Technically they were able to do most of these changes to their Omni-mechs its just that once they did the Omni-mech was forced into the rules of a battle-mech - IE the currently mounted omni-pods couldn't be removed.

So as long as an Omni-mech has its default pods, sure go and make all aspects of it modifiable like a regular battle-mech but when they do they won't be able to put a B pod an an A Chassis.

It keeps the restrictions when you jigsaw but when you don't its quite malleable.

I'd just love to be able to put 4x LB-20x cannons on my DW.

I like this idea. Make endo/ferro unlockable if you've got the default omnipod set.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kubernetes, on 10 October 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

I like this idea. Make endo/ferro unlockable if you've got the default omnipod set.

Might as well just Fully unlock Everything if an OmniMech uses a Full Set?
that way it imitates what happens in lore when you Change an OmniMech it becomes a BattleMech,
but that in it self is another Topic all together,

[Angel of Annihilation]

Darth Hotz, on 09 October 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Yes. Thats what this game needs. More buffs for clan mechs!

It only buffs the under performing Clan Mechs. It does nothing for mechs like the Timberwolf, Stormcrow and Arctic Cheetah because those already have both FF and Endo mounted. The OP mentions that by they way and it is pretty obvious if you know anything about the Clan mechs.

As to Clan tech vs IS tech the entire justification and reason for the restricted builds on the Clan Omnimechs was because of the fact that Clan Tech started off superior. However this was before the endless series of nerfs to the clan weapons themselves and all the quirks were added to IS mechs. Because of the nerfs and the qrirks, that is why the build restrictions needs to go away or at least be relaxed.

Then there is the fact we now have a ton of Clan IIC models in the game that follow IS build guidelines and more coming yet aside from exactly 1 variant, the KDK 3, none of them are OP in comparison to IS mechs in general. This right here is pretty indicative of the fact that from a Tech standpoint, ie weapons, engines, DHS, etc, that they are in fact balanced against the combination of IS weapons techs plus the massive IS quirkage going on so you really can't say Clan tech is superior and use that as a justification for the Omnimech restrictions any more.

Finally, I will admit that the whole omnipod system does allow for somewhat better optimization for Clan Omnimechs but if you really analyze it, this system is still as much or in some cases more restrictive than IS mechs. I keep pointing this out but I have exactly zero options to mount 2 Energy in the arms of any Adder. Also I always though the Shadow Cat looked interesting and I would love to mount maybe 3 ER MLs and 3 ER SL on the mech, however none of the omnipod combinations allow more than 3 Energy mounts. The Executioner can never mount more than 2 Missiles. So yeah, you have some optimization in some cases but aside from a few Clan Omnis, usually the ones that are already optimized already, you have an as much or more restrictive hardpoint limitation as you would have an any IS mechs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

SirNotlag, on 10 October 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

As requested mechs that benefit from this:
Nova
Mad dog
Hellbringer
Summoner
Some people have stated being able to removing FF from the Night Gyr would help it as it would get more slots
Gargoyle
Warhawk
Executioner
DireWolf

**** clan omnis not helped by this:
Mist lynx (unless its bap becomes removable)
Ice Ferret

We also have to consider that it stops mechs from being Dead on arrival if we have more ability to customise them and make them effective.

Night Gyr and the new upcomming Huntsman would definitely benefit from being able to remove Ferro. Both these mechs have a large amount of pod space (free tonnage) for weapons and equipment but are slot poor due to having to deal with so many slots tied up by the fixed JJs, ferro and endo. This doesn't limit the power of the builds you can run but does absolutely limit the diversity of what you can actually run. Basically you might have 2-3 solid builds on these mechs with the FF locked, but have 6-7 unlocked just because you could mount the few more DHS required to cool a LPL in place of mounting a UAC/10, things like that.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Viktor Drake,
um im not advocating unlocking Endo or Ferro on all Chassis,
Again see Bishops Topic, and Post there, Thank you,