58 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

l3elthaz0r, on 09 October 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Don't omnimechs already add a great new dimension of play due to the fact that you can mix and match hardpoints? Then again I haven't played any clan mechs except recently bought timberwolves during the sale. I think that having fixed XL engines and jumpjets etc is a brilliant way to balance it. I don't get why everyone just says there isn't enough tonnage. You can literally put hardpoints wherever you want. That's enough to offset the disadvantages.

To answer your question, only on a few select Omnimechs. The rest are generally pretty restrictive. For example, a Shadow Cat can only ever mount 3 Energy weapons, this on a chassis that just begs for mounting 5-6 ER medium and/or Small lasers. The Adder can only every mount 1 Energy in each arm. The Myst Lynx can only ever mount weapons on its easy to hit and destroy arms. The Kit Fox, at least until the hero came out, could only ever mount ballistics in its torso. Mad Dog and Summoner can only mount energy in the arms. I could go on but the point is that while you can mix and match your hard points to a degree, your still very restricted by the available omnipods and what each pod is allowing you to mount and in alot of cases, your options aren't so great.

If you think about it, your really start realizing that overall, Omnimechs are just as restrictive as IS mechs in terms of hard points plus they have to deal with all the locked structure, equipment, engines, etc.

Also before anyone else says it, I will say there are a few Clan Omnimechs that are extremely well optimized out of that gate and the pod options they have actually allow you to almost create exactly the mech you want it, however you want it but they are the exception not the rule. The Timberwolf is one of them. It is a bit over-engined and would do well if you could drop the engine down to a 350XL to free up a bit of tonnage, but even with the large engine it has plenty of tonnage to build out pretty much anything you want. Also it has a massive amount of hardpoint options available with it omnipods. This is why it is overall best heavy mech in the game currently. Ebon Jaguar is another that is well optimized with great omnipods. Stormcrow would be perfectly optimized if it didn't have the 2 unused and unusable DHS slots in its engine and again great omnipods. Arctic Cheetah is another. As for the rest, they all pretty much have major flaws in their design that can't be corrected due to the restrictions imposed on Clan Omnimechs.

The Gargoyle is a prime example. It has standard structure and a huge 400XL engine which leave this 80 ton mech short on available tonnage. You try to compare it to a Timberwolf and even though it is 5 tons heavier, it falls far, far short. The Timberwolf is just as fast, can mount 8 tons more weapons and equipment and has near the same armor. Being able to just change out the structure from Standard to Endo would give it 4 more tons for weapons and equipment. This would still be short of what you could mount on the Timberwolf but would go a long way to making up the difference in firepower and capability and perhaps at least make the Gargoyle somewhat competitive. This is why there is a push for being able to change out structure and armor on Clan Omnis, it isn't just because we want it, it is because the Omnimech that can take advantage of this change, physically need this ability to swap structure and armor to close the gap between them and those Clan Omnis that came optimized out of the box so to speak.

[Baulven]

Mystere, on 10 October 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

I have always found this statement very silly, unless of course what posters actually meant was that MW developers were/are completely incapable of making the game follow BT due to technical limitations at the time or plain and simple incompetence.

While it is possible from a technical standpoint the feasibility is unlikely to be great. Most players not invested in the lore would go to clan due to the tech advantage (even in the later timelines when they become closer strength wise) which would make FW an even bigger mess than current with the mercenaries constantly jumping to an over populated faction. Granted a fix for that would be to eliminate clan mercs but again, that requires work from PGI and is off topic.

I am awaiting the HBS game because it is essentially tabletop ported to PC. I can play people without an issue and have my lore. The only reason I will be somewhat sad is I have to wait on the eventual clan expansion to play ghost bear.

In short it comes down to tabletop turn based games don't translate well into real time combat. This is a change to their XML file that takes them four hours minimum to edit, vs actual large sweeping changes that would make the game closer to battletech which I don't think is possible at this point.

Actually I had a very sad (and possibly very true) thought about PGI just the other day. I think the reason the improvements is so lackluster is because they only have their interns working on it while the rest of the staff works on another project. It would explain the very short list of fixes per patch, why nothing major gets worked on, and why we haven't seen much of anything on maps even though they talked about hiring two new map makers.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Viktor Drake, on 10 October 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

To answer your question, only on a few select Omnimechs. The rest are generally pretty restrictive. For example, a Shadow Cat can only ever mount 3 Energy weapons, this on a chassis that just begs for mounting 5-6 ER medium and/or Small lasers. The Adder can only every mount 1 Energy in each arm. The Myst Lynx can only ever mount weapons on its easy to hit and destroy arms. The Kit Fox, at least until the hero came out, could only ever mount ballistics in its torso. Mad Dog and Summoner can only mount energy in the arms. I could go on but the point is that while you can mix and match your hard points to a degree, your still very restricted by the available omnipods and what each pod is allowing you to mount and in alot of cases, your options aren't so great.

If you think about it, your really start realizing that overall, Omnimechs are just as restrictive as IS mechs in terms of hard points plus they have to deal with all the locked structure, equipment, engines, etc.

Also before anyone else says it, I will say there are a few Clan Omnimechs that are extremely well optimized out of that gate and the pod options they have actually allow you to almost create exactly the mech you want it, however you want it but they are the exception not the rule. The Timberwolf is one of them. It is a bit over-engined and would do well if you could drop the engine down to a 350XL to free up a bit of tonnage, but even with the large engine it has plenty of tonnage to build out pretty much anything you want. Also it has a massive amount of hardpoint options available with it omnipods. This is why it is overall best heavy mech in the game currently. Ebon Jaguar is another that is well optimized with great omnipods. Stormcrow would be perfectly optimized if it didn't have the 2 unused and unusable DHS slots in its engine and again great omnipods. Arctic Cheetah is another. As for the rest, they all pretty much have major flaws in their design that can't be corrected due to the restrictions imposed on Clan Omnimechs.

The Gargoyle is a prime example. It has standard structure and a huge 400XL engine which leave this 80 ton mech short on available tonnage. You try to compare it to a Timberwolf and even though it is 5 tons heavier, it falls far, far short. The Timberwolf is just as fast, can mount 8 tons more weapons and equipment and has near the same armor. Being able to just change out the structure from Standard to Endo would give it 4 more tons for weapons and equipment. This would still be short of what you could mount on the Timberwolf but would go a long way to making up the difference in firepower and capability and perhaps at least make the Gargoyle somewhat competitive. This is why there is a push for being able to change out structure and armor on Clan Omnis, it isn't just because we want it, it is because the Omnimech that can take advantage of this change, physically need this ability to swap structure and armor to close the gap between them and those Clan Omnis that came optimized out of the box so to speak.

Describing very well echs omni, you also described very well why free endo would change nothing for sub par Omni.

Good omni would stay as they are.
Bad omni have issues for bad location hardpoints/too few hardpoints/bad hitboxes as you yourself wrote.
Take the Garg, very similar to Timberwolf in tonnage, with those hardpoint location and hitboxes.... free endo won't change a damn rat.
Meanwhile, instead of dropping with always the same meta loadouts, I saw 6ml+6spl wreaking avoc in the battlefield.

[Andi Nagasia]

perhaps,
but every little Bit Helps, 2Tons may not Completely Fix the MDD SMN WHK ect,
but its abit extra, more wiggle room when coming up with a build, allowing for more Options,
and more options means more Fun,

a 2UAC5 4ERML NVA wouldnt be better than a HBK-IIC with the same build,
but it allows me to Run a NVA that way, so i have an option i didnt before,

[Angel of Annihilation]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 October 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

perhaps,
but every little Bit Helps, 2Tons may not Completely Fix the MDD SMN WHK ect,
but its abit extra, more wiggle room when coming up with a build, allowing for more Options,
and more options means more Fun,

a 2UAC5 4ERML NVA wouldnt be better than a HBK-IIC with the same build,
but it allows me to Run a NVA that way, so i have an option i didnt before,

This exactly. For the most part, being able to swap structure and armor, It just gives those Clan Omnimechs that are in a bad place a bit more flexibility and at worst bring them up to par with the best Clan Mechs in the game. It sure the heck isn't going to make them more powerful.

Also I am not so sure that unlocking everything and allowing full customization to Clan Omnimechs would upset the balance all that much. I mean you already have the IIC variants in game which don't have restricted build rules and the vast majority of them aren't OP and most of them have as many hardpoints as any Omnimech in the game.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 October 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

a 2UAC5 4ERML NVA wouldnt be better than a HBK-IIC with the same build,
but it allows me to Run a NVA that way, so i have an option i didnt before,

That's another reason I don't like free endo/ferro: every chassis should be different and allow different loadouts.
Replicate them, or even pasta copy from timber to garg (see Vicot Drake post) do not have sense and pauperazes diversity.

Above all, Nova does not need a help, at all.

This is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech

1 nova 3175
2 hunchback IIC 2908
3 stormcrow 2790
4 shadowcat 2693
5 cicada 2643
6 Blackjack 2641
7 shadow hawk 2572
8 hunchback 2535
9 centurion 2518
10 griffin 2483
11 enforcer 2435
12 wolverien 2429
13 crab 2368
14 trebuchet 2308
15 kintaro 2308
16 ice feret 2257
17 vindicator 2141
18 phoenix hawk 2013


So, once again: NOPE

[Andi Nagasia]

Viktor Drake, on 11 October 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

This exactly. For the most part, being able to swap structure and armor, It just gives those Clan Omnimechs that are in a bad place a bit more flexibility and at worst bring them up to par with the best Clan Mechs in the game. It sure the heck isn't going to make them more powerful.

Also I am not so sure that unlocking everything and allowing full customization to Clan Omnimechs would upset the balance all that much. I mean you already have the IIC variants in game which don't have restricted build rules and the vast majority of them aren't OP and most of them have as many hardpoints as any Omnimech in the game.

well as unlocking everything i think Much like Bishop, JJ and Engines need to stay locked,
also if Endo/Ferro get unlocked(Bishops Topic) then the first 2 articles of this topic are also,
i believe in unlocking (HS, DHS, Weapons, & non JJ/Engine Equipment(CAP, BAP, Case, CC)

[Andi Nagasia]

Gladius Vittoris, on 11 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's another reason I don't like free endo/ferro: every chassis should be different and allow different loadouts.
Replicate them, or even pasta copy from timber to garg (see Vicot Drake post) do not have sense and pauperazes diversity.

Above all, Nova does not need a help, at all.

This is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech

(Stuff)

So, once again: NOPE

of course each Chassis needs something i does better than others,
but if i want to put 2UAC5 &6ERML on my NVA i should be able to,
-
if not just Give me a NVA-S BattleMech and ill do it on that,
you see its not IS vs Clan its BattleMech vs OmniMech, OmniMechs are Overly restricted in MWO,
Thats a Fact, OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs, and will continue to be so until things change,

um Leader boards are based on MatchScore which is almost Soly based on Damage,
Mechs that can do alot of damage usually do better, even if they arnt viable normally,
-
for instance are you saying a SHC is better than a BJ, CN9, ENF, HBK, GRF, & SHD?
well we need to have a long talk about what meta is and how it works, but thats Another Topic,

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gladius Vittoris, on 11 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's another reason I don't like free endo/ferro: every chassis should be different and allow different loadouts. Replicate them, or even pasta copy from timber to garg (see Vicot Drake post) do not have sense and pauperazes diversity. Above all, Nova does not need a help, at all. This is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech 1 nova 3175 2 hunchback IIC 2908 3 stormcrow 2790 4 shadowcat 2693 5 cicada 2643 6 Blackjack 2641 7 shadow hawk 2572 8 hunchback 2535 9 centurion 2518 10 griffin 2483 11 enforcer 2435 12 wolverien 2429 13 crab 2368 14 trebuchet 2308 15 kintaro 2308 16 ice feret 2257 17 vindicator 2141 18 phoenix hawk 2013 So, once again: NOPE

Nova has exactly one decent build. Yes it does need help

Andi Nagasia, on 11 October 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

of course each Chassis needs something i does better than others, but if i want to put 2UAC5 &6ERML on my NVA i should be able to, - if not just Give me a NVA-S BattleMech and ill do it on that, you see its not IS vs Clan its BattleMech vs OmniMech, OmniMechs are Overly restricted in MWO, Thats a Fact, OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs, and will continue to be so until things change, um Leader boards are based on MatchScore which is almost Soly based on Damage, Mechs that can do alot of damage usually do better, even if they arnt viable normally, - for instance are you saying a SHC is better than a BJ, CN9, ENF, HBK, GRF, & SHD? well we need to have a long talk about what meta is and how it works, but thats Another Topic,

Also don't forget that the leaderboards are also based on the amount of matches played. Play enough matches and your eventually going to get enough great matches that even mediocre mechs can top the leaderboards.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 October 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

for instance are you saying a SHC is better than a BJ, CN9, ENF, HBK, GRF, & SHD?
well we need to have a long talk about what meta is and how it works, but thats Another Topic,

Again, as I previously wrote, do you really think that free endo would change something in SHC?
It has 3 E hardpoints. It would be far better trying to buff in some other ways.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Viktor Drake, on 11 October 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Nova has exactly one decent build. Yes it does need help



Also don't forget that the leaderboards are also based on the amount of matches played. Play enough matches and your eventually going to get enough great matches that even mediocre mechs can top the leaderboards.

I count at least 3 good builds.

Also, don't forget that leaderboards are also based on the amount of matches played.... and this for every chassis I listed above.

[Snowbluff]

l3elthaz0r, on 09 October 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Don't omnimechs already add a great new dimension of play due to the fact that you can mix and match hardpoints? Then again I haven't played any clan mechs except recently bought timberwolves during the sale. I think that having fixed XL engines and jumpjets etc is a brilliant way to balance it. I don't get why everyone just says there isn't enough tonnage. You can literally put hardpoints wherever you want. That's enough to offset the disadvantages.

Timby has plenty of tonnage, but I'l lsay the placement of the fixed slots and jumpjets greally hinders customization. Sure, I can run plenty of UBER builds on my timby (4 ASRM, x2 AC10, Gauss PPC), but I wish I could move those fixed slots into the arms for silly builds. :l

[Zergling]

I think some clan omnimechs should have the option to swap endo/ferro and hard-mounted heatsinks/jumpjets/other equipment, but not all.

Nova, Hellbringer, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Dog and Arctic Cheetah really don't need buffs, as they appear to compete just fine.

Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret and Gargoyle could definitely use them, and Summoner, Executioner, Adder and Kit Fox could use them to a lesser extent.


Another idea: heavily buff the non-ECM pods for the locations that have ECM on the Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat and Hellbringer, so that there is powerful incentive to run those mechs with non-ECM builds.

[Baulven]

Gladius Vittoris, on 11 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's another reason I don't like free endo/ferro: every chassis should be different and allow different loadouts.
Replicate them, or even pasta copy from timber to garg (see Vicot Drake post) do not have sense and pauperazes diversity.

Above all, Nova does not need a help, at all.

This is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech

1 nova 3175
2 hunchback IIC 2908
3 stormcrow 2790
4 shadowcat 2693
5 cicada 2643
6 Blackjack 2641
7 shadow hawk 2572
8 hunchback 2535
9 centurion 2518
10 griffin 2483
11 enforcer 2435
12 wolverien 2429
13 crab 2368
14 trebuchet 2308
15 kintaro 2308
16 ice feret 2257
17 vindicator 2141
18 phoenix hawk 2013


So, once again: NOPE

That was before the Nova post half it's structure in every component. That was a time that was ideal for the Nova (post rescale per nerf) and isn't indicative of current gameplay.

[Baulven]

Zergling, on 12 October 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

I think some clan omnimechs should have the option to swap endo/ferro and hard-mounted heatsinks/jumpjets/other equipment, but not all.

Nova, Hellbringer, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Dog and Arctic Cheetah really don't need buffs, as they appear to compete just fine.

Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret and Gargoyle could definitely use them, and Summoner, Executioner, Adder and Kit Fox could use them to a lesser extent.


Another idea: heavily buff the non-ECM pods for the locations that have ECM on the Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat and Hellbringer, so that there is powerful incentive to run those mechs with non-ECM builds.

Arctic cheetah already had endo/FF. Also ECM does not make a shifty mech (looking at you lynx) magically good. While a niche of people can do marginally well against potatoes it is like saying some people can do well in a Phoenix hawk. It doesn't mean that the mech is better than people think, it means some people either play enough or get lucky enough to put up those numbers

[Zergling]

Baulven, on 12 October 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

Arctic cheetah already had endo/FF. Also ECM does not make a shifty mech (looking at you lynx) magically good. While a niche of people can do marginally well against potatoes it is like saying some people can do well in a Phoenix hawk. It doesn't mean that the mech is better than people think, it means some people either play enough or get lucky enough to put up those numbers

ACH does have locked jumpjets however. While lights probably do need a buff in general, the ACH doesn't specifically need buffing more than others.

As for ECM, I agree that the Mist Lynx is **** even with ECM, but with mechs like the Shadow Cat and Hellbringer, I'd like some good reason to not use ECM on them.

[adamts01]

Zergling, on 12 October 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

Another idea: heavily buff the non-ECM pods for the locations that have ECM on the Mist Lynx

No one even halfway serious uses ECM on a MLX. Maybe even halfway serious people don't use the Mist Lynx. OK, unless you're less than 1/4 serious, you wouldn't run ECM on that mech, it's literally half your firepower you're giving up. I say buff the **** out of the MLX ECM arm so people wouldn't be gimping themselves out the gate with it. And buff every single other omnipod on the MLX while you're at it PGI.

[Duke Nedo]

I don't know which clan mech is a clear underperformer at the moment? There has been a quirkeniing or two since....

Ok MLX is a bit weak but far, far from the worst light in the game.
The Fridge is not bad at all, just ugly like sin.
What else was mentioned?
Nova? Not bad at all and quite popular too.
Hellbringer? Hell no, it's a good bot still, just not as good as the EBJ. Pre-EBJ it used to be very popular.
Summoner? Not my first pick but with the quirks it has a rather unique niche that I find quite charming and fun. Does some things well.
Warhawk? Perhaps my least favorite clan mech, but not sure if it qualifies as a truly bad robot. Not the best though, that's granted, but mostly due to geometry and not lack of pod space.
Mr. Gargles? I think he's great at what he does.
The Executive? Not bad, not awesome, but masc-JJ-niche FUN and fast assault to play, quite popular.
The Direwolf? Still a very good turret, only a few builds would gain anything from having access to endo though I think.

I wouldn't change much here. Some mechs could even become worse by unlocking endo/ff and removing quirks, like for example Mr. Gargles. With these arms I'd rather have agility and durability than a few more tons of loadout. Same with the Nova and the Fridge, the loadout is not the problem really since they have enough E hardpoints to go around, they are better off with quirks imo.

Just my 2. There are bigger fish to fry!

[Andi Nagasia]

adamts01, on 13 October 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

No one even halfway serious uses ECM on a MLX. Maybe even halfway serious people don't use the Mist Lynx. OK, unless you're less than 1/4 serious, you wouldn't run ECM on that mech, it's literally half your firepower you're giving up. I say buff the **** out of the MLX ECM arm so people wouldn't be gimping themselves out the gate with it. And buff every single other omnipod on the MLX while you're at it PGI.

the MLX could really Benifit from the removal of that CAP,
1 ton isnt much but for a MLX thats nearly 15% more Tonnage,
but thats another Topic,