36 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Because i do not think that the MDD is in need of 2 extra tons. I think it's in a good spot.
Quirks helped it a lot and even before it wasn't underperforming at all.
When the MDD hit with Wave 2 it did not had to compete with the TBR SMN or HBR. It had it's own niche where it could shine, namely shortrange brawler or lrm lobber.

we can agree 2 tons isnt much, but it could help it with its MDD-C build,
2more Tons of ammo, or 1Ton more Ammo and 1More ton of Armor,
more tonnage just helps it do things it couldnt before,
-
will 2 tons make it the best Dual Guass Sniper? well no its not,
but it gives it the option to Run another Build just alittle better, thats why i ask for these things

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

If you had asked questions for each mech independently, i would have votes with NO for the MDD but with YES for the SMN.
MDD already has plenty of podspace and 26 tons to play with, on top of very favorable hardpoints for its niche.
SMN on the other hand has more then 20% less tonnage despite being 10 tons heavier thanks to 7,5tons heavier engine, 2 more hardwired heatsinks and 5 tons worth of jumpjets. SMN has to compete directly with every other clan heavy without having a niche of it's own (expect jumping with is a forced niche.. can't get riid of the jumpjets, might as well use them).
SMN suffers from hardpoint inflatation on top of it.

we cant have different construction Rules for Every mech, its confusing and not very fair,
currently we are using nearly TT OmniConstruction Rules but Full BattleMech Factory Construction Rules,
already things are placed way in BattleMechs Favor, BattleMech hard point inflation just makes it worse,
but its easier to ask for OmniMech Construction rules to be relaxed 10%,
then it is for BattleMechs Construction Rules be locked 80%,
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um the SMN doesnt suffer from hard point inflation it suffers from a Lack of hard point inflation,
Most BattleMechs get hard point inflation, but No OminMech gets hard point inflation,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Although, i have to point out that i think the new omnipods from the new SMN variants will bump the chassi up the ladder by quite a bit.

help it yes, but they arnt going to make it instantly better, it just gives it a few more builds,
which im fine with, but still those 2 tons could still help the SMN, which is why im asking for these things,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

I could say similar stuff about the WHK and the GAR. One is in a very good spot, one is in the borderline derpzone.
If aynthing the WHK should get a visual overhaul so it won't look like a direwolf even on 3rd glance.
The GAR on the otherhand.. oh boy, don't get me started.

both have a Couple Good Builds, but no one will say never need some more Help,
and remember this gives both just 2Tons more to play with not much, but enough to help alittle,
-
the WHK gets 9Tons as because its unlocking its 7locked DHSs,
will this make the WHK OP? no, as the MAD-IIC will do everything the WHK does but better in Dec,
just as people cant say the DWF is still OP, and is bearly Meta,as the KDK does Everything Better,
but unlike the DWF which is locked into being Slow, the KDK can take 400XL, and Higher Dakka,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

But, yes. That is actually powercreep,

Glossary of video game terms, Wikipedia said:

Power creep
The gradual unbalancing of a game due to successive releases of new content. The phenomenon may be caused by a number of different factors and, in extreme cases, can be damaging to the longevity of the game in which it takes place. As new expansions or updates are released, new game mechanics, units, equipment and/or effects are introduced, usually stronger than previously existing content. Game developers use this primarily to push the new content, as it gives an incentive to buy it for competitions against other players or as new challenges for the single player experience. As new content with more power is introduced, the average powerlevel within the game rises, making it increasingly difficult for older content to remain in balance without changes. This means older content becomes regressively outdated or relatively underpowered, effectively rendering it useless from a competitive or challenge-seeking viewpoint. In extreme cases whole parts of the game will be avoided by the players, as they are overshadowed by newer content.

so unless these Bufffed Mechs Suddenly start out preforming the Best in the Game then its not Power Creep,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Mind you, i precisely wrote that "underperforming mechs" should get revisited for adjustments.

I will go through it step by step.

again you cant Build a system where every unit has diffrent Construction Rules,
it doesnt work well, is hard to Balance, and takes a long time to implement(Please See Quirks)

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Would you Support Unlocking Fixed Endo?(NVA/HBR/DWF)?

See Above where Everything has diffrent Construction Rules,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

NVA: No. Does not need help imo. Remarkable good brawler, Remarkable good jumpsniper.

3Builds(12ERSLs)(12SPLs)(2ERPPCs) unlocking this wouldnt add much but it could help some,
(12SPLs +4MGs)(2SRM6As +6SPLs) its about options, and having Fun,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

HBR: No. Seriously it's a HBR. Who in his or her right mindset would claim they are underperforming?

because 3Tons will suddenly make them OP? this is one of those that Benefits from this That Perhaps Shouldnt,
but to keep things constistant, as to make it more User Friendly its better Buffed, sorry just how it is,
Few will agrue that the HBR is good, but take away its ECM and few would take it, just saying

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

DWF: Already comes with standard structure. I assume that the question is if DWF should be allowed to swap to endo. Answer is still a big fat NO. It already has over 50 tons of podspace available. On a hardpoint array so vast that MWO literally will deny saving the loadout if more then 16 weapons are equiped. Yes, it has 5 tons hardlocked heatsinks but it compensates with hardpoints.. a lot of hardpoints.

yes and losing 7Crits for 5Tons is a Choice Players would now have,
the DWF is slow, its not OP its bearly Meta, with all this a Choice could give players more options,
its not ganna Out Preform a KDK or even an Atlass even if it has 5 more Tons,
DWFs are Walking Barns, that cant twist, cant take a Hit and can Bearly Run,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Would you Support Ferro / Endo Swapping?(MDD/SMN/GAR/WHK/EXE)?

See Above where Everything has diffrent Construction Rules,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

MDD: No. If you can't make it work with 26 tons worth of weaponry on a 60 ton mechs, you won't make it work with 28 tons.
Instead, you might want to look at pilots who do make it work and take notes. MDD is good as it is right now. Niche mech for sure but sure as hell not underperforming.

saying that You can make something work isnt the same as saying it doesnt need a Buff,
a MLX can work, that doesnt mean a MLX doesnt need a Buff, right now the MDD has some Nich Builds,
these 2 tons could help it Run Duel Gauss as per its C Variant, every little Bit helps,
it wont become the best at Duel Gauss, but its another Option for Players,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

SMN: Well.. maybe but i think the new omnipods will work way better to set the mech on tracks.

2Energy is far from what the SMN needs it helps yes, but dont think Everyone will suddenly start taking them,
just like me assking for 2 tons, it will help abit but its not going to break the game,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

GAR: The mech has way bigger problems then having a ton more or less available. Hardpoint inflatation. It can't compete with other assaults but it can't compete with heavies either. it would need to have both endo and ferro on top of having the engine heatsinks unwired to give this mech it's own niche.
Anybody who can make this thing work without small or smallpulse lasers, you have my respect.

which are their own Topics, in this one im talking about giving it 2 tons so Players can have abit more fun,
some more options and perhaps Ammo for that UAC20 some equip some times,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

WHK: Honestly NO. It is a good spot. It can go dakka, lurms, mixed and even make quad LPL/PPC work. Why would the WHK need any help by giving it more tons to play around with?

2tons arnt ganna break the game, 2more tons of SRM ammo? 2more tons of UAC20 ammo?
its only 2 tons so i dont understand why you seem to think the WHK will suddently out DPS KDKs,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

EXE: I have no freaking idea... i don't own one, i've seen people suck in it, i've seen people rolling with it.

ok so no problem with these getting 2 more tons, ok moving on

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Would you Support Unlocking Non Engine DHS?(NVA/WHK/EXE/DWF)?

See Above where Everything has diffrent Construction Rules,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

NVA: Err No? Why? What can a NVA do with 10 Heatsinks but 20 tons of podspace? it won't start boating autocannons. not enough tonnage.expect for dual uac5.. where it will compete with other dakka mechs and get outshined.
It won't start boating missiles either, no hardpoints for that. How would that even remotely help the NVA to be more competitive towards outer clan'mechs? Specifically towards the SCR and HBK IIC?

yes its like it would almost be good on its own? you could actually take large Ballistics with it,
this opens up (UAC20 +6SPLs builds)(2UAC5s +4ERMLs)also with the Hero(4SRM4s+ERPPCs)

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

WHK: No, because dakka warhawk isn't wooping enough or what?

like the DWF most of the Time the WHK Runs out of space before it runs out of tonnage,
you are almost forced to place all your Ammo in that RT, this gives options for spreading the ammo out more,
unless you are one of those who never takes Dakka in a WHK i can say this is a problem,

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

EXE: Again, no idea.

ok so no problem with these getting another ton, ok moving on

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

DWF: No. Because the thing a DWF already has enough is tonnage. The thing it lacks is heatefficency for all its weapons.
Unless quadgauss needs to become a thing. Then again, it will still not quadgauss better then the KDK. So what's the point in removing Heatsinks?

allowing people to have more Fun building it, will it be better than the KDK? no,
then why do it? so we can all have abit more Freedom in Building out OmniMechs,



im not proposing these things to make these Mechs OP, or the Best in MWO,
im Proposing these things to help them alittle, and make them more Fun to play,
which is why most of us are here, to have fun playing with and building Mechs we love,
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remember this Topic is also for IS omniMechs yet to be released,
OmniMechs that could use these Options, Options to help them be just alittle Better,
its not about Power Creep, its about Having Fun, and Building Mechs we all Grew up with,



Edit-

Kuaron, on 10 October 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

I voted "no".
At the moment, Omnimechs have their thing by changing pods instead of their internal parts but having access to the more efficient Clan tech. There is some kind of balance between them and Battlemechs this way.
I's rather think about nerfing IIC-Mechs which have the best of both cakes.

But I'd completely rethink this statement if we get 12 vs. 10 matches, Lances vs. Stars, as is being discussed in the other thread.
Because in the moment of this change Clan and IS are stop being supposed to be balanced equal, but rather one would have to elevate Omnimechs on the level of current IIC-Mechs.

i believe(as well as this Topic) IS and Clan are Balanced, but thats another Topic,
Please use the Forum Search Feature to look for the Discussions about these things, Thanks

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 11 October 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[Kuaron]

What things?
And what forum search feature?

[Ultra-Laser]

VonBruinwald, on 09 October 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The only way I would consider supporting this is if it required the 'mech to have a full set of Omni-pods.

Do you want to swap pods or do you want to swap structure? You can't have it both ways.

I actually like the thinking behind this one. While for the most part I'm still clearly on the side of GOD NO DON'T Having it DHS shifting come at the cost of locking you to a single configs hardpoints sounds like a reasonable exchange. Not reasonable enough to make me change my mind of course, but if I were stuck with it anyway I'd definitely want it done they way you propose it be done. In fact if we get a large enough variety of IICs added for the omnipod limitations to effectively make the likes of the Shadow Cat or Loki/Hellbringer obsolete I might support it entirely.

FUN FACT tabletop rules actually do have a way for omnimechs to have their engines/heatsinks/structure be upgraded, but doing so causes them to lose the ability to swap out their omnipod equipment and they are treated as regular battlemechs from that point forward. So there is a precedent of sorts for what you're suggesting.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Ultra-Laser,
DWF-Prime as a BattleMech would be Awesome,
NVA-S as a BattleMech would also be Awesome,
(thats assuming they also get hardpoint inflation)

[Ultra-Laser]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 October 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

@Ultra-Laser,
DWF-Prime as a BattleMech would be Awesome,
NVA-S as a BattleMech would also be Awesome,
(thats assuming they also get hardpoint inflation)

Not even in my wildest fantasies will I ever allow hardpoint inflation on clan mechs, you're already spoiled with the omnipod system letting you pick and choose the best possible combo of omnipods. Giving a former omnimech its own buffed quirk set, freakishly high engine cap*, those are the sort of things I could swallow, but hardpoint inflation is just a step to far when there are so many other things that could work just as well that at least have precedent.

Only the likes of granting the DRG-1C access to MASC and ECM would even make me consider tampering with hardpoints at all, and even that I would vaster prefer they gave us our Grand Dragons instead.



*there is how you could make Novas awesome, something like a 300, 350 or even a 400 engine cap on a 50 tonner? Any faster and Novas would break lightspeed.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

OldOrgandonor, on 09 October 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

The answer to power creep in this game is NOT to allow more power creep.

For F's sakes.

Why is "simple" so hard for MWO?

As a clanner, Id have to say I would love to see this happen but it would make them quite strong indeed. Its better to keep them restricted and quirk the poor performers to give people a reason to use them imo.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ultra-Laser, on 11 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Not even in my wildest fantasies will I ever allow hardpoint inflation on clan mechs, you're already spoiled with the omnipod system letting you pick and choose the best possible combo of omnipods. Giving a former omnimech its own buffed quirk set, freakishly high engine cap*, those are the sort of things I could swallow, but hardpoint inflation is just a step to far when there are so many other things that could work just as well that at least have precedent.

Only the likes of granting the DRG-1C access to MASC and ECM would even make me consider tampering with hardpoints at all, and even that I would vaster prefer they gave us our Grand Dragons instead.



*there is how you could make Novas awesome, something like a 300, 350 or even a 400 engine cap on a 50 tonner? Any faster and Novas would break lightspeed.

are you saying a Mech Like the Super Nova shouldnt get hard Point Inflation?
it has but thats because every Variant would be 3Energy per Arm if it didnt,

also Mechs follow a Rule set when Deciding Engine Rating,
which is why and Super nova can only reach a 325 max,

[Odanan]

Wintersdark, on 10 October 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Because buffing poor mechs, and not buffing strong mechs, is power creep?


Faction power is determined by the strongest mechs, because the weak mechs just don't get used.


Unlocking ES/FF only buffs weak mechs.

Again: After they're unlocked, the difference between the weak mechs and strong mechs is lower, so faction wide changes can be used without utterly ruining already poor mechs.

This! ^

[a gaijin]

No this unlocking mix endo/FF & matching is a bad idea and here's why:

PGI has not been able to correctly balance the already the implemented weapons/mechs/tech and they've been tweaking/peaking and trying to balance them since 2012!
Unsuccessfully.

As much as I like MWO and give PGI an 'A' for effort, it is utter nonsense to add more workload to their already apparently full plate.

Instead of adding more complicated mechanics PGI should be focused on adding more interesting play modes and streamlining what's already in the game.

And deleting weapon buffs/nerfs/and quirks out of MWO.

[Serpentbane]

I dont feel those mechs are underperforming at all atm. Besides suffering to much from the stupid GH, but it's hard to avoid on these small areana style maps and the only way to make the game fair is to limit the DPS and alphas on the heavier mechs...

[Vlad Striker]

This poll against letter and spirit of BT! No,no,no.

[Arugela]

I think in all cases the game should make the mechs what they should be and make the game conform to the mechs. Then we stop seeing balancing of the mechs and start seeing development of the game.

[Alceroi]

I would prefer your choices to be a little more broad and avoid op mechs like the nova who already have fairly amazing quirks to begin with

[Andi Nagasia]

HolyBishop, on 24 May 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

I would prefer your choices to be a little more broad and avoid op mechs like the nova who already have fairly amazing quirks to begin with

but would the NVA be OP with this?
you add Endo to the NVA and gain 2.5Tons, ok more tonnage but you lose 7Crits(4DHS) worth of Space,
you take away a NVAs 4 DHSs it gains 4 Tons, which could help run a UAC20 + 6ERSL, or 2UAC5 build,
but that doesnt change the fact the NVAs arms Drag the Ground, which is why it has Structure Quirks,

[Wintersdark]

HolyBishop, on 24 May 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

I would prefer your choices to be a little more broad and avoid op mechs like the nova who already have fairly amazing quirks to begin with

That's the thing. These things being locked isn't a good balance measure. If it's determined the Nova for example is too strong with these things unlocked, then the Nova can have it's quirks reduced. Anything that results in better balance with fewer quirks is good in my book.

With that said, you'll have to be more specific if you want to make that claim. If the Nova could take Endosteel, would that make it better? It would make it more flexible, in that you could finally run ballistic builds, but it wouldn't make it better. The strongest nova builds are energy based (and would remain so), and a key component of a strong energy build is.... DHS. How would ES/FF make the Nova better?

[SuperFunkTron]

I think that the Gargoyle, maybe the Warhawk are the 2 mechs that would have the potential for most gain here. Being able to move the Warhawk's locked DHS in the left torso would open the mech up to a lot more possibility in terms of its builds (it doesn't affect its hottest 4 erPPC build).

The Gargoyle (one of my favorite mechs in MWO) would have the most to gain by allowing endosteel as it would open up enough tonnage to make it punch more like the larger heavy mechs. I would say that the Gargoyle is probably one of the toughest clan mechs to play effectively (the wide torso with its current lack of mounts and arms that don't protect from much), but it can still be plaid with brutal efficiency by those who are determined to learn how to use it effectively. The extra 4 tons of weapons would be hugely appreciated when it comes to squeezing in useful amounts of ammo to its stock builds (6 medium/small pulse lasers and an UAC 20 with 2 tons of ammo really translates to lasers only very quickly). The new issue that arises is the question of it being balanced once it has that much speed AND fire power.

[Khobai]

Quote

Just unlock ES and FF

The problem is there no reason not to take CES and CFF.

The point of customization is to give players choices. But theres no choice there: youre punished for not taking CES and CFF.

If CES and CFF are unlocked then Clan Standard Structure and Clan Standard Armor need to be equally viable choices.