36 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

=0=Poll for the General Discussion Topic(HERE)=0=

Andi Nagasia, on 09 October 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

So lets take a look at OmniMechs.

When first announced, OmniMechs has an Almost literal translation of TT OmniMech Build Restrictions. Almost as in TT OmniMechs had locked Armor Amounts, Many OmniMechs had really Low Default armor Values.

And so PGI Relaxed that Construction Rule allowing one to modify the amount of armor on an OmniMech, but Keeping all the other restrictions, Such as Locked Endo / Ferro, Engine & Equipment,

for a Time the tech seemed balanced, IS with their BattleMechs & Clan their Omnis,
a True Comparison wasnt available as Mixed Tech didnt Exist, and Nether side had the others equipment, IS didnt have OmniMechs & Clan didnt have BattleMechs,


But then came the inevitable IICs and other Clan Battlemechs. With Full BattleMech Mech Factory Customization and hardpoint inflation, this was the True Comparison we were looking for, now we could see how BattleMechs Stacked up to OmniMechs,

in the end though OmniMechs that werent already Super Optimized(SCR / TBR) just couldnt Compete with the MWO Mech Factory Construction Rules of the Clan BattleMechs, as Clan BattleMechs are as a base concept, superior to Clan OmniMechs,

so Quirks where used to try to help out under Preforming OmniMechs, sadly this isnt much more than a bandaid, yes it helps out some, but i think some Rules need to Relax or Change, so that all Mechs, BattleMechs as well as OmniMechs can be Fun and Viable,

personally i would like OmniMechs to have their,
Endo Unlocked(for STD OmniMEchs),
Endo / Ferro Swapping Availability
& Non Engine DHS unlocked!


=First Endo Unlocks for STD OmniMechs(NVA, HBR, DWF)=
this is only Available for OmniMechs that have no other Upgrades,
so only the NVA, the HBR, and the DWF would gain this ability,
-
also upon upgrading to Endo, each Mech would gain 7 Fixed Structure Slots,
(3Fixed Structure LT) (1Fixed Structure HD) (3Fixed Structure RT)
this is to limit some Builds and give the Mechs Penalties for Endo,
(no HBR / DWF, HD lasers, no ST UAC20s)
NVA= +Endo(+2.5tons)
HBR= +Endo(+3tons)
DWF= +Endo(+5tons)


=Now onto Endo / Ferro Swapping Avalability=
this idea and Concept came from Lore, but in an Odd way,
the Original Player of Ranna Kerensky and her WHK named Lupus,
Original Topic Here(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs!)
-
this Simply allowing Omni-Mechs to Swap their Ferro upgrade for Endo,
in this case the Slots the Endo takes up will replace the Slots Ferro Took up,
this will allow Omni-Mechs the Option to Switch Upgrades(Lose Ferro=Gain Endo),
wail still maintaining their Aspects as non Upgradable OmniMechs,
-Swapping Fluff-
"as to please the TrueBorn Pilots, wanting differing Upgrades on their OmniMechs,
most Clan Factories began working on Special Conversion bays for these OmniMechs,
however because of how OmniMechs are constructed, Pod based and modular,
Upgrades may not be removed or added only be Swapped, one for another,
this Conversion and Modification Process could take up to a year,"
-
MDD(8.5Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1Ton) +Endo(+3tons)= +2Tons After Switch,
SMN(9.5Tons of Armor)=-Ferro(-1.25Ton) +Endo(+3.5tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
GAR(11Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.5Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.5Tons After Switch,
WHK(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
EXE(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4.25tons)= +2.50Tons After Switch,
the 2 Extra Tons Can & Will be Useful for All Ammo Dependent Mech Builds,
(Fixed Armor Points Get Converted into Fixed Structure Points)


=& Finally Non Engine DHS Unlocks=
just as it says allow All Non Engine DHSs to be unlocked, this wont help the SCR / TBR but will help some of the Smaller Mechs a bit, as now thay have alittle More Freedom in construction,(putting a UAC10 in a KFX-S LT instead of the RT)
-
MLX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ACH= 1DHS(can now be Relocated)
KFX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ADR= 2DHS(can now be Relocated)
-
besides Light Mechs, some Larger OmniMechs benifit quite abit as well, as the NVA & WHK both Make Huge Gains in their Available Tonnage, this would allow both to have more Space and Room for Ammo if the NVA or WHK decide to Run a more Ballistic Oriented Build,
-
NVA= 4DHS(+4tons)
WHK= 7DHS(+7tons)
EXE= 1DHS(+1tons)
DWF= 3DHS(+3tons)


=Combined=
as some of these ideas overlap its likely that some Mechs will get much more help,
NVA(Endo+DHS) +6.5Tons(22.5FreeTons)
WHK(Swap+DHS) +9.25Tons(41.75FreeTons)
EXESwap+DHS) +3.5Tons(30FreeTons)
DWF(Endo+DHS) +8Tons(60.5FreeTons)


=Note=
This Topic is not a IS vs Clan Topic, and assumes IS & Clan are Balanced,
this Topic is about how BattleMechs are Superior to Un-optimized OmniMechs,
and how Balance Can be Achieved between the two, for both IS & Clan,

Edit- Link
Edit2- Notes
Edit3- FixedLink

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 November 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

ES/FF changes are needlessly complicated. Just unlock ES and FF and be done with it.

Non-engine DHS unlock - be great, but is not without danger as it buffs strong Clan mechs as well as weak ones. I'm nervous about this, though I'd like to see it personally. I usually don't "support" it as a rider on the unlock ES/FF train because of that danger - you're providing "Oh no, don't do that, it'll wreck IS v. Clan balance" ammunition.

If anything, I'd prefer an ENGINE DHS unlock, because it's stupid that we've got these huge 375/400 rated engines with empty slots we're inexplicably not allowed to use (but this too runs afoul of the "could do harm" point).

But there's no argument against ES/FF unlocks that isn't just "it won't do enough" which is frankly moronic. Iteratively buffing weaker mechs is the BEST way to go, and unlocking ES/FF does that.

[Bradigus]

Unlocking heatsinks outside of the engine for removal or shifting at personal preference should be permitted, as should the removal or shift of any additional sensor equipment such as the active probe on the mist lynx.

The endo-steel frame and ferro-fibrous armour are part of the omnimechs core design, and as such are part of the limiting factor on what sort of roles it is able to undertake.

[Wintersdark]

Bradigus, on 09 October 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

The endo-steel frame and ferro-fibrous armour are part of the omnimechs core design, and as such are part of the limiting factor on what sort of roles it is able to undertake.

As they are on Battlemechs, yet nobody objects there?

They don't really impact roles, though. It just arbitrarily nerfs mechs that don't need nerfing by reducing available tonnage. It means less builds are viable, but not different roles. Unless by "limits roles" you mean "just make them bad so people don't bother using it"

[VonBruinwald]

The only way I would consider supporting this is if it required the 'mech to have a full set of Omni-pods.

Do you want to swap pods or do you want to swap structure? You can't have it both ways.

[Unnatural Growth]

The answer to power creep in this game is NOT to allow more power creep.

For F's sakes.

Why is "simple" so hard for MWO?

[Andi Nagasia]

Wintersdark, on 09 October 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

ES/FF changes are needlessly complicated. Just unlock ES and FF and be done with it.

Non-engine DHS unlock - be great, but is not without danger as it buffs strong Clan mechs as well as weak ones. I'm nervous about this, though I'd like to see it personally. I usually don't "support" it as a rider on the unlock ES/FF train because of that danger - you're providing "Oh no, don't do that, it'll wreck IS v. Clan balance" ammunition.

If anything, I'd prefer an ENGINE DHS unlock, because it's stupid that we've got these huge 375/400 rated engines with empty slots we're inexplicably not allowed to use (but this too runs afoul of the "could do harm" point).

But there's no argument against ES/FF unlocks that isn't just "it won't do enough" which is frankly moronic. Iteratively buffing weaker mechs is the BEST way to go, and unlocking ES/FF does that.

its not, no Fixed Slot Changes just a bonus +2Tonnage, easy to Implement and not that hard to Balance,

the reason i say non Engine DHS, is that it only helps the Under Preformers,
where as unlocking Engine DHS helps mechs already Preforming very well, and are Meta,
the TBR could remove 5Engine DHSs(+5Tons) where as the SCR could Place in 3Engine DHS(saving Space)

i dont think Unlocking Ferro and Endo Fully will work as much as you think it will,
but in any Case thats another Topic, Bishops in fact, Which ive Linked, Check his out, Thanks,

VonBruinwald, on 09 October 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

The only way I would consider supporting this is if it required the 'mech to have a full set of Omni-pods.

Do you want to swap pods or do you want to swap structure? You can't have it both ways.

i cant agree with this, id rather just have a NVA-S converted to a BattleMech as it would be Much Better,
2UAC5 + 4ERML, Faster, better Equipped, and more Options to Play with,

OldOrgandonor, on 09 October 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

The answer to power creep in this game is NOT to allow more power creep.

For F's sakes.

Why is "simple" so hard for MWO?

as i posted before,
how would this be Power Creeping for the NVA? Yes it would have 22.5Tons of Free Space,
but if your Ganna Run Lasers you need those DHS that we unlocked so no change there,
but if you are ganna run UAC5s you now can, will it be better than the HBK-IIC? no,
all this does is give it more Build Variety and options, not really Power Creep,

[kesmai]

Pray to pgi that they gonna say no.

[Andi Nagasia]

kesmai, on 10 October 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Pray to pgi that they gonna say no.

Why? you give no real reason other than well (No)?

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Votes with NO on all question.

Reasoning is powercreep.
I am okay with unlocking jumpjet and or the ability to add endo to a summoner but not to a maddog for example.
I think 'mechs which are heavily underperfoming should get taking into consideration for tweeking (like the adder had his headmounted flamer unlocked) but i am against swapping or adding endo/ ferro and even hardwired equipment across the board for all omni'mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Votes with NO on all question.

Reasoning is powercreep.
I am okay with unlocking jumpjet and or the ability to add endo to a summoner but not to a maddog for example.
I think 'mechs which are heavily underperfoming should get taking into consideration for tweeking (like the adder had his headmounted flamer unlocked) but i am against swapping or adding endo/ ferro and even hardwired equipment across the board for all omni'mechs.

why not the MDD just wondering, thats just a simple change for +2Tons, 2more Ammo nothing more?
(also not asking for adding Ferro on anything at all, Thats Bishops Topic)

[Wintersdark]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 October 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Votes with NO on all question.

Reasoning is powercreep.
I am okay with unlocking jumpjet and or the ability to add endo to a summoner but not to a maddog for example.
I think 'mechs which are heavily underperfoming should get taking into consideration for tweeking (like the adder had his headmounted flamer unlocked) but i am against swapping or adding endo/ ferro and even hardwired equipment across the board for all omni'mechs.

Because buffing poor mechs, and not buffing strong mechs, is power creep?


Faction power is determined by the strongest mechs, because the weak mechs just don't get used.


Unlocking ES/FF only buffs weak mechs.

Again: After they're unlocked, the difference between the weak mechs and strong mechs is lower, so faction wide changes can be used without utterly ruining already poor mechs.

[Wintersdark]

Come on, guys. If you're going to complain power creep or balance, give specific examples of already T1 mechs that are getting better, or mechs that will exceed the current and long standing "kings".

Buffing bad mechs != powercreep.

[VonBruinwald]

Wintersdark, on 10 October 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Come on, guys. If you're going to complain power creep or balance, give specific examples of already T1 mechs that are getting better, or mechs that will exceed the current and long standing "kings".

Dire-Star. Switching to Endo/Ferro would allow you to fit two more PPCs!!!

[Wintersdark]

VonBruinwald, on 10 October 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Dire-Star. Switching to Endo/Ferro would allow you to fit two more PPCs!!!

Endo and FF would only get one more PPC, but yeah... Hitting someone with 12 ERPPC's instead of 11 is indeed a problem!


On the other hand, what does it have to compare to my 199 alpha damage Kodiak-1?

Edited by Wintersdark, 10 October 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

VonBruinwald, on 10 October 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Dire-Star. Switching to Endo/Ferro would allow you to fit two more PPCs!!!

Wintersdark, on 10 October 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

Endo and FF would only get one more PPC, but yeah... Hitting someone with 12 ERPPC's instead of 11 is indeed a problem!

On the other hand, what does it have to compare to my 199 alpha damage Kodiak-1?

um your Explosion is more Spectacular? WHERES THE B33F?

[Wintersdark]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 October 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

um your Explosion is more Spectacular? WHERES THE B33F?

Darn rights.

You live long enough to get the doubletap off on the UAC20, and that's all that matters. 199 damage - even on bitty crit in there will push structural damage thanks to the 15% carrythrough allowing more than 200 damage in the strike. Pick target, make target go away in a fine, sparkly mist.

Admittedly, you're basically moving at stock Urbanmech speeds, but who cares? How much of a hurry are you in to die gloriously? Take your time, find the right target =)

[VitriolicViolet]

good lord that build is hot.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 October 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

why not the MDD just wondering, thats just a simple change for +2Tons, 2more Ammo nothing more?
(also not asking for adding Ferro on anything at all, Thats Bishops Topic)

Because i do not think that the MDD is in need of 2 extra tons. I think it's in a good spot.
Quirks helped it a lot and even before it wasn't underperforming at all.
When the MDD hit with Wave 2 it did not had to compete with the TBR SMN or HBR. It had it's own niche where it could shine, namely shortrange brawler or lrm lobber.

If you had asked questions for each mech independently, i would have votes with NO for the MDD but with YES for the SMN.
MDD already has plenty of podspace and 26 tons to play with, on top of very favorable hardpoints for its niche.
SMN on the other hand has more then 20% less tonnage despite being 10 tons heavier thanks to 7,5tons heavier engine, 2 more hardwired heatsinks and 5 tons worth of jumpjets. SMN has to compete directly with every other clan heavy without having a niche of it's own (expect jumping with is a forced niche.. can't get riid of the jumpjets, might as well use them).
SMN suffers from hardpoint inflatation on top of it.
Although, i have to point out that i think the new omnipods from the new SMN variants will bump the chassi up the ladder by quite a bit.

I could say similar stuff about the WHK and the GAR. One is in a very good spot, one is in the borderline derpzone.
If aynthing the WHK should get a visual overhaul so it won't look like a direwolf even on 3rd glance.
The GAR on the otherhand.. oh boy, don't get me started.

Wintersdark, on 10 October 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Because buffing poor mechs, and not buffing strong mechs, is power creep?


Faction power is determined by the strongest mechs, because the weak mechs just don't get used.


Unlocking ES/FF only buffs weak mechs.

Again: After they're unlocked, the difference between the weak mechs and strong mechs is lower, so faction wide changes can be used without utterly ruining already poor mechs.

First of, did you read what i wrote? I mean, you even quoted it...

But, yes. That is actually powercreep,
Mind you, i precisely wrote that "underperforming mechs" should get revisited for adjustments.

I will go through it step by step.

Would you Support Unlocking Fixed Endo?(NVA/HBR/DWF)?

NVA: No. Does not need help imo. Remarkable good brawler, Remarkable good jumpsniper.

HBR: No. Seriously it's a HBR. Who in his or her right mindset would claim they are underperforming?

DWF: Already comes with standard structure. I assume that the question is if DWF should be allowed to swap to endo. Answer is still a big fat NO. It already has over 50 tons of podspace available. On a hardpoint array so vast that MWO literally will deny saving the loadout if more then 16 weapons are equiped. Yes, it has 5 tons hardlocked heatsinks but it compensates with hardpoints.. a lot of hardpoints.

Would you Support Ferro / Endo Swapping?(MDD/SMN/GAR/WHK/EXE)?

MDD: No. If you can't make it work with 26 tons worth of weaponry on a 60 ton mechs, you won't make it work with 28 tons.
Instead, you might want to look at pilots who do make it work and take notes. MDD is good as it is right now. Niche mech for sure but sure as hell not underperforming.

SMN: Well.. maybe but i think the new omnipods will work way better to set the mech on tracks.

GAR: The mech has way bigger problems then having a ton more or less available. Hardpoint inflatation. It can't compete with other assaults but it can't compete with heavies either. it would need to have both endo and ferro on top of having the engine heatsinks unwired to give this mech it's own niche.
Anybody who can make this thing work without small or smallpulse lasers, you have my respect.

WHK: Honestly NO. It is a good spot. It can go dakka, lurms, mixed and even make quad LPL/PPC work. Why would the WHK need any help by giving it more tons to play around with?

EXE: I have no freaking idea... i don't own one, i've seen people suck in it, i've seen people rolling with it.

Would you Support Unlocking Non Engine DHS?(NVA/WHK/EXE/DWF)?

NVA: Err No? Why? What can a NVA do with 10 Heatsinks but 20 tons of podspace? it won't start boating autocannons. not enough tonnage.expect for dual uac5.. where it will compete with other dakka mechs and get outshined.
It won't start boating missiles either, no hardpoints for that. How would that even remotely help the NVA to be more competitive towards outer clan'mechs? Specifically towards the SCR and HBK IIC?

WHK: No, because dakka warhawk isn't wooping enough or what?

EXE: Again, no idea.

DWF: No. Because the thing a DWF already has enough is tonnage. The thing it lacks is heatefficency for all its weapons.
Unless quadgauss needs to become a thing. Then again, it will still not quadgauss better then the KDK. So what's the point in removing Heatsinks?

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 10 October 2016 - 04:54 PM.

[Kuaron]

I voted "no".
At the moment, Omnimechs have their thing by changing pods instead of their internal parts but having access to the more efficient Clan tech. There is some kind of balance between them and Battlemechs this way.
I's rather think about nerfing IIC-Mechs which have the best of both cakes.

But I'd completely rethink this statement if we get 12 vs. 10 matches, Lances vs. Stars, as is being discussed in the other thread.
Because in the moment of this change Clan and IS are stop being supposed to be balanced equal, but rather one would have to elevate Omnimechs on the level of current IIC-Mechs.

Edited by Kuaron, 10 October 2016 - 06:38 PM.