35 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

iliketurtles87, on 15 October 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

there is no reason to play IS mechs at all

Not since the KDK-3 came out.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 15 October 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

You are talking about numbers, but he's talking about practicality. I would rather use CERMEDs over IS MEDs given a choice of tech (mixed or otherwise) because the practicality of using a 1ton+1crit weapon at mid range is much better than the short range that the IS MED would provide. Med Lasers might be the workhorse of the IS, but their role is limited just as much as CERMEDs are jack of all trades type that is useful in many more cases then the IS MED.

However this is subjective. As you mention, I am talking number but your taking what you would rather do. What you would rather do has nothing to do with balance.

Lets look at these two weapons as a 1ton+1crit weapon only. Lets say you mount 4 ML on your IS mech and then 4 C-ER ML on your Clan mech. That is 4 tons, 4 crits each. Now lets compare.

4 IS ML - 20 damage, 16 heat
4 C-ER ML - 28 damage, 24 Heat.

Ok you get 8 more damage that is great but look at the heat. You get 40% more damage for 60% more heat. As I mentioned in my other post, heat is the single biggest limiting factor to sustained damage as eventually your going to reach your heat threshold and you will have to stop firing or you will overheat simple as that.

So we have established that ton for ton, crit for crit, that 4 C-ER ML will produce 8 more heat than the IS ML so now ask yourself exactly how many more DHS it will take for the Clan mech to maintain the same cooling ability as the IS mech. 2? 3? more? Suddenly, the C-ER ML becomes not a 1ton+1crit weapon, it becomes a 2ton+2Crit weapon.

Now lets look at it another way. 4 IS MLs is 16 heat, 4 C-ER ML is 24 heat which is 8 heat difference, we have already established that. If we look at that extra 8 heat available to the 4 IS ML set up, what can we do with it, hmm? I know, fire the 4 ML + a Single ER LL or LL or the 4 ML + a LPL. How about 4 ML + 2 SRM6's? All of a sudden that extra 8 damage doesn't seem so significant does it. 4 ML + ER LL or LL = 29 damage. 4 ML + LPL = 31 damage. 4 ML + 2 SRM6s = 44 damage.

So seriously, which weapon is really more overall useful and has greater jack-of-all trades versatility?

This as I mention is the biggest issue I find in all these Clan vs IS debates, they just aren't thought through and the harsh reality is that numerous circumstances, situations and in combination with many IS mechs and IS mech builds, IS weapons are hands down without a doubt superior to Clan weapons and again this is before Quirks are added into the mix. I won't lie that on certain mechs and in certain builds or combinations, Clan weapons can be superior but it flip flops between IS and Clan from mech-to-mech, build-to-build. The sad truth is that a vast majority of the superiority of clan tech in this game is based on perception and ill thought out reasoning plus some deep ingrained conditioning that since the Lore states that Clan equipment was so much superior that in game it must be true as well. The sad truth is that Russ and PGI has thoroughly gutted Clan tech to the point where I am not so sure it isn't actually underpowered in the grand scheme of things.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

However this is subjective. As you mention, I am talking number but your taking what you would rather do. What you would rather do has nothing to do with balance.

Lets look at these two weapons as a 1ton+1crit weapon only. Lets say you mount 4 ML on your IS mech and then 4 C-ER ML on your Clan mech. That is 4 tons, 4 crits each. Now lets compare.

4 IS ML - 20 damage, 16 heat
4 C-ER ML - 28 damage, 24 Heat.

Ok you get 8 more damage that is great but look at the heat. You get 40% more damage for 60% more heat. As I mentioned in my other post, heat is the single biggest limiting factor to sustained damage as eventually your going to reach your heat threshold and you will have to stop firing or you will overheat simple as that.

So we have established that ton for ton, crit for crit, that 4 C-ER ML will produce 8 more heat than the IS ML so now ask yourself exactly how many more DHS it will take for the Clan mech to maintain the same cooling ability as the IS mech. 2? 3? more? Suddenly, the C-ER ML becomes not a 1ton+1crit weapon, it becomes a 2ton+2Crit weapon.

Now lets look at it another way. 4 IS MLs is 16 heat, 4 C-ER ML is 24 heat which is 8 heat difference, we have already established that. If we look at that extra 8 heat available to the 4 IS ML set up, what can we do with it, hmm? I know, fire the 4 ML + a Single ER LL or LL or the 4 ML + a LPL. How about 4 ML + 2 SRM6's? All of a sudden that extra 8 damage doesn't seem so significant does it. 4 ML + ER LL or LL = 29 damage. 4 ML + LPL = 31 damage. 4 ML + 2 SRM6s = 44 damage.

So seriously, which weapon is really more overall useful and has greater jack-of-all trades versatility?

This as I mention is the biggest issue I find in all these Clan vs IS debates, they just aren't thought through and the harsh reality is that numerous circumstances, situations and in combination with many IS mechs and IS mech builds, IS weapons are hands down without a doubt superior to Clan weapons and again this is before Quirks are added into the mix. I won't lie that on certain mechs and in certain builds or combinations, Clan weapons can be superior but it flip flops between IS and Clan from mech-to-mech, build-to-build. The sad truth is that a vast majority of the superiority of clan tech in this game is based on perception and ill thought out reasoning plus some deep ingrained conditioning that since the Lore states that Clan equipment was so much superior that in game it must be true as well. The sad truth is that Russ and PGI has thoroughly gutted Clan tech to the point where I am not so sure it isn't actually underpowered in the grand scheme of things.

You need to work on your arguments. It's not sufficient as currently constituted.

For one wielding CERMEDs, you have range to offset the heat penalty (let alone the favorable Clan DHS crit stacking - you can only fit so many IS DHS on a mech - of course this happens only when you stack so many lasers and DHS to hit whatever cap presented... which tends to happen to heavier mechs) and often times are able to deal damage to your opponent before they get to you... unless it's a brawling situation. In most cases, you will be able to use the CERMED at a much greater frequency due to the range it provides.

When you're trying to use IS Meds on a target, your engine becomes important because you are forced to close on the target to make the most of it. Sure it might be more efficient heatwise, but you risk many things and will have to make some compromises (usually involving a larger engine to get into position) before your weapons come to bear.

Numbers aren't just everything... in the context of the ISMED vs CERMED, practical usage is a thing, and you can't write it off as "ISMEDs are better" when there are a multitudes of considerations that you'd have to go through before you can even take advantage of the benefits.

So, try again.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 October 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[vibrant]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

This as I mention is the biggest issue I find in all these Clan vs IS debates, they just aren't thought through and the harsh reality is that numerous circumstances, situations and in combination with many IS mechs and IS mech builds, IS weapons are hands down without a doubt superior to Clan weapons and again this is before Quirks are added into the mix.

For me, one of the big factors people don't mention is how often part of the C-ERML's beam gets wasted due to its longer length. When you fire at a target and he ducks behind cover, or one of your teammates suddenly moves across your line of sight... the cursor often leaves your target while you're still firing, meaning you are increasing heat - considerable heat - for nothing. Very often putting all of your (lesser) damage in a shorter beam duration that actually HITS the target is a heck of a lot more efficient, and means you have better opportunity twist the damage, or get into cover yourself.

[Y E O N N E]

vibrant, on 16 October 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

For me, one of the big factors people don't mention is how often part of the C-ERML's beam gets wasted due to its longer length. When you fire at a target and he ducks behind cover, or one of your teammates suddenly moves across your line of sight... the cursor often leaves your target while you're still firing, meaning you are increasing heat - considerable heat - for nothing. Very often putting all of your (lesser) damage in a shorter beam duration that actually HITS the target is a heck of a lot more efficient, and means you have better opportunity twist the damage, or get into cover yourself.

If you are playing cERML, you should be working between 350 and 500 meters unless you have a lot of friends exposed with you. And like I said earlier, how long you want to stay exposed is entirely up to you. You will do more damage in 0.9 seconds than an isML does, so you can recover even a little bit sooner and win the trade. The wasted heat is really not an issue since you are engaging from further than his guns can do damage (which means you could actually just sit there and win the trade, too). You have time to cool-down. Your team should be rotating with you to make sure they don't have free reign to push your position while you cool. If they aren't, either your team is not up to snuff or you need to be rethinking your position.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 16 October 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

You need to work on your arguments. It's not sufficient as currently constituted. For one wielding CERMEDs, you have range to offset the heat penalty (let alone the favorable Clan DHS crit stacking - you can only fit so many IS DHS on a mech) and often times are able to deal damage to your opponent before they get to you... unless it's a brawling situation. In most cases, you will be able to use the CERMED at a much greater frequency due to the range it provides. When you're trying to use IS Meds on a target, your engine becomes important because you are forced to close on the target to make the most of it. Sure it might be more efficient heatwise, but you risk many things and will have to make some compromises (usually involving a larger engine to get into position) before your weapons come to bear. Numbers aren't just everything... in the context of the ISMED vs CERMED, practical usage is a thing, and you can't write it off as "ISMEDs are better" when there are a multitudes of considerations that you'd have to go through before you can even take advantage of the benefits. So, try again.

I mentioned the fact that there are situations where Clan weapons we superior but you also have to consider that once the battle does close to 270m or closer to 300m with a module, that any advantage the clan mech had in regards to range becomes a mute point. I mean I see so many people use range as the scapegoat for determining Clan Weapons superiority but having range is only useful when you are out-ranging you opponent and it is a rare battle when the entire battle will be at 400m range where enemy MLs can't touch you. So range is a situational advantage, no more, no less and not any less relevant than once you get into range, being able to fire the 4 IS MLs plus 2 additional SRM6s and output 16 more damage for the same heat over what the Clan mech would be able to accomplish. I am not going to be arrogant and say that the IS advantage at short range is higher than the Clan advantage at long range, but it is pretty obvious that there are times when Clan weapons face significant disadvantage as well.

Also will Clan Omnimech build restrictions, often your not stacking any more DHS on the clan mech than you can on a comparable IS mech, instead you just have to deal with the heat and its debilitating effect on firepower and sustainability. Keep in mind also that it isn't just C-ER MLs that are hotter, it is also just about every other Clan weapon as well, so while those 4 C-ER ML might need 2 extra DHS, that Clan LPL will need an additional 1-2 DHS, etc, etc and even on Clan mechs that don't have build restrictions interfering with boating DHS, there are only so many critical slots that can be used. I am not going to do the math on this one but by rough estimate for the same firepower rating, it generally takes 22-24 mounted Clan DHS to equal 18 IS mounted DHS and again....THIS IS BEFORE QUIRKS. Of course the Clans get a range advantage but as already mentioned, most battles will get close enough that the range advantage is a mute point anyway. On and speaking of Quirks, my Crab mounting ER LLs can actually fire 4m farther than C-ER LLs due to having a range quirk so, so much for the range advantage.

Lastly, engine size is somewhat overrate as a closing tool. Sure it is helpful but generally you can use this concept called using "Cover" to get into range of the enemy if your IS. Even Polar Highlands has plenty of low cuts and valleys plenty high enough to screen your mech as you approach the enemy and then you have maps such as Mining Collective which are almost always point blank affairs where Clan weapon range advantage is a mute point.

So I will absolutely acknowledge that there are times that Clan Weapons have the advantage, but when you consider the significant disadvantages of how hot clan weapon generally run and what that means over the course of your engagements plus the way that the maps are designed so that you often can use cover to negate range advantages, Total superiority doesn't exist and in fact in alot of cases, inferiority is the key word when it comes to Clan weapons.

[Angel of Annihilation]

vibrant, on 16 October 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

For me, one of the big factors people don't mention is how often part of the C-ERML's beam gets wasted due to its longer length. When you fire at a target and he ducks behind cover, or one of your teammates suddenly moves across your line of sight... the cursor often leaves your target while you're still firing, meaning you are increasing heat - considerable heat - for nothing. Very often putting all of your (lesser) damage in a shorter beam duration that actually HITS the target is a heck of a lot more efficient, and means you have better opportunity twist the damage, or get into cover yourself.

I do mention this in my original post. IS weapons require less face time to get off full damage and this is yet another significant factor for a number or reasons. One, as I mentioned you weapons begin cooldown faster which increases it rate of fire. Two, since the beam is turning off faster your mech begins to start cooling faster. Three, less wasted damage as it is easier to keep the full beam on the enemy mech for full damage. Four, your more likely to concentrate the beam on the intended section of the mech you are firing at for the full duration rather than spread damage. Five, less face time when firing at an enemy thus leaving them less reaction time to do damage back at you. These are all significant advantages.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you are playing cERML, you should be working between 350 and 500 meters unless you have a lot of friends exposed with you. And like I said earlier, how long you want to stay exposed is entirely up to you. You will do more damage in 0.9 seconds than an isML does, so you can recover even a little bit sooner and win the trade. The wasted heat is really not an issue since you are engaging from further than his guns can do damage (which means you could actually just sit there and win the trade, too). You have time to cool-down. Your team should be rotating with you to make sure they don't have free reign to push your position while you cool. If they aren't, either your team is not up to snuff or you need to be rethinking your position.

There is ideal and then there is real. Sure there are times when a Clan mech can take advantage of its range advantage but we are talking something like a 135m range advantage at most and with all the quirks the IS mech enjoy, often it is going to be less than that. I have several IS mechs that can with quirks and module fire out to 324m with a ML for example thus reducing the Clan ER ML range advantage down to only 95m. That is a very small immunity zone for a Clan Mech to work with. Also since you mention the whole team thing as a requirement to use that extra range you have with the Clan ER ML, I think we can all agree that 90% of the time, your team is going to let you down so if that is a requirement to be able to take advantage of the extra range on a Clan ER ML, then we might as well take range off the list as an advantage hehe.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

I mentioned the fact that there are situations where Clan weapons we superior but you also have to consider that once the battle does close to 270m or closer to 300m with a module, that any advantage the clan mech had in regards to range becomes a mute point. I mean I see so many people use range as the scapegoat for determining Clan Weapons superiority but having range is only useful when you are out-ranging you opponent and it is a rare battle when the entire battle will be at 400m range where enemy MLs can't touch you. So range is a situational advantage, no more, no less and not any less relevant than once you get into range, being able to fire the 4 IS MLs plus 2 additional SRM6s and output 16 more damage for the same heat over what the Clan mech would be able to accomplish. I am not going to be arrogant and say that the IS advantage at short range is higher than the Clan advantage at long range, but it is pretty obvious that there are times when Clan weapons face significant disadvantage as well.

It almost seems like you haven't watched a lick of comp play... whether it is the MWOWC or even MRBC.

Brawls happen... inevitably. The problem is relative to how much damage you can push at range before this matters.

Consider Canyon. There's spots where brawling is effective. However, in most engagements... you end up trying to fight against mid range where CERMEDs thrive and some long range.

When teams use their range properly where they move and relocate to suppress anyone attempting to brawl... the team with more range tends to win on such maps. You have more options... even if heat is not on your side (you can actually run ERLL of either type on Tourmaline when you are disciplined enough to do it). At some point the attempt to close may be more punishing than the attempt to relocate (at least when done properly) and more range tends to win when a brawl doesn't manifest.

You can't solve every match with a brawl. It doesn't work as players are better at using their weapons at optimal ranges.

Quote

Also will Clan Omnimech build restrictions, often your not stacking any more DHS on the clan mech than you can on a comparable IS mech, instead you just have to deal with the heat and its debilitating effect on firepower and sustainability. Keep in mind also that it isn't just C-ER MLs that are hotter, it is also just about every other Clan weapon as well, so while those 4 C-ER ML might need 2 extra DHS, that Clan LPL will need an additional 1-2 DHS, etc, etc and even on Clan mechs that don't have build restrictions interfering with boating DHS, there are only so many critical slots that can be used. I am not going to do the math on this one but by rough estimate for the same firepower rating, it generally takes 22-24 mounted Clan DHS to equal 18 IS mounted DHS and again....THIS IS BEFORE QUIRKS. Of course the Clans get a range advantage but as already mentioned, most battles will get close enough that the range advantage is a mute point anyway. On and speaking of Quirks, my Crab mounting ER LLs can actually fire 4m farther than C-ER LLs due to having a range quirk so, so much for the range advantage.

Not all mechs get heat gen quirks. The Grasshopper-5P is a more popular variant due to its duration quirks (and mostly increased # of high mounts), despite lack of heat gen quirks (the 5H has them).

You're also overrating some of the really good omnimechs (Timberwolf is still a thing) where stuffing DHS is a common occurrence. Bad omnimechs still suffer from other things (like missing Endo, and not really what the discussion is about).

Quote

Lastly, engine size is somewhat overrate as a closing tool. Sure it is helpful but generally you can use this concept called using "Cover" to get into range of the enemy if your IS. Even Polar Highlands has plenty of low cuts and valleys plenty high enough to screen your mech as you approach the enemy and then you have maps such as Mining Collective which are almost always point blank affairs where Clan weapon range advantage is a mute point.

It's not overrated. Why do you think the Atlas needs a large engine to bring its AC20 to bear? Why do you think it needs all those structure quirks? The Dakkabear has no qualms using superior range (whether it goes UAC10 dakka or PPC+Gauss) to deal more damage to the Atlas whenever it can way before the Atlas can do much back (and if you even suggest using any sort of mid-long range weapons on an Atlas, you're already losing the argument) to your targets. Even the SRM brawling Griffins need a decent engine to get to and away from targets.

Quote

So I will absolutely acknowledge that there are times that Clan Weapons have the advantage, but when you consider the significant disadvantages of how hot clan weapon generally run and what that means over the course of your engagements plus the way that the maps are designed so that you often can use cover to negate range advantages, Total superiority doesn't exist and in fact in alot of cases, inferiority is the key word when it comes to Clan weapons.

I swear to god you are using every useless Gyrok argument that has been presented before. Range is a major consideration for many builds and dropdecks... wherever applicable. Heat is also an issue and consideration, but you can't just write off the counterarguments of what lacking range does to a mech to be effective. It doesn't work the way you're presenting it.


It's fine if you want to brawl and all, but when the engagement mitigates the benefits of brawling (especially with organized groups), range can't be overrated... it's a thing based on the current game (it's possible to have a meta brawling imbalance, but it hasn't happened yet though).

Cover is a thing, but there's not enough reliable cover to avoid "mid range" on most maps.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

I mentioned the fact that there are situations where Clan weapons we superior but you also have to consider that once the battle does close to 270m or closer to 300m with a module, that any advantage the clan mech had in regards to range becomes a mute point. I mean I see so many people use range as the scapegoat for determining Clan Weapons superiority but having range is only useful when you are out-ranging you opponent and it is a rare battle when the entire battle will be at 400m range where enemy MLs can't touch you. So range is a situational advantage, no more, no less and not any less relevant than once you get into range, being able to fire the 4 IS MLs plus 2 additional SRM6s and output 16 more damage for the same heat over what the Clan mech would be able to accomplish. I am not going to be arrogant and say that the IS advantage at short range is higher than the Clan advantage at long range, but it is pretty obvious that there are times when Clan weapons face significant disadvantage as well.

When a battle closes to 270 meters, it's all about Clan small-class lasers, SRMs, and ballistics. Inner Sphere medium lasers are too hot and too slow in the context of the larger DHS, lower top speeds, and fragile XL engines.

Even at 300 meters, it's just a few steps for the typically faster Clan 'Mechs to close distance and get those small lasers into play.

And when you are trying to close the gap, who do you think is dictating the trades? Clan 'Mechs with Large Pulse, PPCs, Gauss, and Ultras. The Warhammer is literally the only IS 'Mech universally hanging with them in this department, with the Grasshopper showing under special conditions.

Go watch the OC Regional Finals. The OC teams have more of a brawling compulsion, and you can get a first-hand demonstration of what happens when you attempt to brawl against kiting range in the ISRC vs. Coma matches.

Quote

Also will Clan Omnimech build restrictions, often your not stacking any more DHS on the clan mech than you can on a comparable IS mech, instead you just have to deal with the heat and its debilitating effect on firepower and sustainability. Keep in mind also that it isn't just C-ER MLs that are hotter, it is also just about every other Clan weapon as well, so while those 4 C-ER ML might need 2 extra DHS, that Clan LPL will need an additional 1-2 DHS, etc, etc and even on Clan mechs that don't have build restrictions interfering with boating DHS, there are only so many critical slots that can be used. I am not going to do the math on this one but by rough estimate for the same firepower rating, it generally takes 22-24 mounted Clan DHS to equal 18 IS mounted DHS and again....THIS IS BEFORE QUIRKS. Of course the Clans get a range advantage but as already mentioned, most battles will get close enough that the range advantage is a mute point anyway. On and speaking of Quirks, my Crab mounting ER LLs can actually fire 4m farther than C-ER LLs due to having a range quirk so, so much for the range advantage.

Debilitating effect on firepower? Sure, if you over-gun your 'Mech. That's the whole point: you aren't supposed to be able to realistically blaze away with 12 lasers and some SRMs. You aren't supposed to even be able to blaze away with eight long-range lasers alone. Not all hard-points are usable: you have to manage it. And if you think the IS 'Mech actually runs colder, you are mistaken. Even the Black Knight, at its height of power, only got two shots in before having to retreat...just like the Clan 'Mechs. You chose the TBR when you needed more range, the BK when you didn't.

Clan ER LL is bad, I will give you that, but in this case it's running into a human limitation and rather than a mathematical one. Maximum range advantage due to the quirks is trivial, though; you're scratching paint with both weapons.

Also, we shouldn't be trying to balance around the quirks. We should be trying to reduce the need for them as much as possible.

Quote

Lastly, engine size is somewhat overrate as a closing tool. Sure it is helpful but generally you can use this concept called using "Cover" to get into range of the enemy if your IS. Even Polar Highlands has plenty of low cuts and valleys plenty high enough to screen your mech as you approach the enemy and then you have maps such as Mining Collective which are almost always point blank affairs where Clan weapon range advantage is a mute point.

It's getting from cover to cover (Polar actually has little cover, but significant concealment) that's the problem, and it's compounded by the fact that there are three critical torso zones on the IS 'Mech versus the two on a Clan 'Mech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

This is ok, alot of you guys don't get it, I understand. All you want to do is point out where Clan Weapons on Superior and not acknowledge that there are alot of situations where Clan Weapons are inferior. That is the entire reason we have so many useless debates that go no where and why PGI, continues to fail around uselessly trying to balance things based on player perceptions rather than reality.

The point I have been trying to make over and over is that for each and every reason why people view Clan Weapons or better yet lets say Clan mechs because lets be honest, it isn't one weapon that makes or breaks a mech, there is a reason why this isn't the case or a situation where IS weapons and mechs are clearly superior. It is like all the arguments are, 'By god Clan weapons and mechs are superior and that the is the end of story....MUST NERF CLANS!!! and that is what annoys me so much.

Clan weapons at one point were over the top. Some of the Clan mechs were over the top but this isn't the same game we had when the first Clan mechs came out. Things changed, Quirks got added, new, better optimized IS mechs came out and the Clan mechs are no long the king of the hill. Some Clan mechs are very powerful as are some IS mechs, on the hand, some Clan mechs suck as do some IS mechs but overall Clan Superiority DOES NOT EXIST. That is all I am trying to get across and trying to get people to acknowledge.

Also I will say again here what I have said elsewhere, I could care less about the competitive scene in the game. As with anything competitive, optimization is going to be the goal and only a few mechs are going to achieve that optimization, just because a Clan Kodiak is regarded as the most competitive Assault Mech and shows up in overwhelming numbers in competitive game play doesn't mean Clan Mechs, plural, are superior. The game most of us play isn't in the competitive scene and consists of tons and tons of unoptimized mechs of all shapes and sizes. Some of us even play Gargoyles or Urbanmechs, mechs that wouldn't in a million years be seen in anything remotely competitive. For every superior mech in this game there are 10 that don't make the cut in the competitive scene yet those inferior mechs are still played in the game. Therefore, what relevance whatsoever does competitive gameplay have anything to do with anything other than competitive gameplay?

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is ok, alot of you guys don't get it, I understand. All you want to do is point out where Clan Weapons on Superior and not acknowledge that there are alot of situations where Clan Weapons are inferior. That is the entire reason we have so many useless debates that go no where and why PGI, continues to fail around uselessly trying to balance things based on player perceptions rather than reality.

It's okay, We accept that you don't understand the interplay between equipment and how teamwork affects it.

Also, I would point out that we never said nerf Clans. Instead, we said (in so many words) buff Inner Sphere. But, reading is hard I suppose.

Quote

Therefore, what relevance whatsoever does competitive gameplay have anything to do with anything other than competitive gameplay?

Because if something is unusable at the top, resulting in a lack of build variety, it is still technically unusable at the bottom; lack of skill just obfuscates the fact. That's why it's relevant.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is ok, alot of you guys don't get it, I understand. All you want to do is point out where Clan Weapons on Superior and not acknowledge that there are alot of situations where Clan Weapons are inferior. That is the entire reason we have so many useless debates that go no where and why PGI, continues to fail around uselessly trying to balance things based on player perceptions rather than reality.

This isn't really about a Clan vs IS debate (although it'll happen anyways). It's all about your lack of understanding of your comparisons. Essentially, you're trying to use a knife in a gun fight.

You're just ignoring reality and totally hung up on the silliest of details.

Quote

The point I have been trying to make over and over is that for each and every reason why people view Clan Weapons or better yet lets say Clan mechs because lets be honest, it isn't one weapon that makes or breaks a mech, there is a reason why this isn't the case or a situation where IS weapons and mechs are clearly superior. It is like all the arguments are, 'By god Clan weapons and mechs are superior and that the is the end of story....MUST NERF CLANS!!! and that is what annoys me so much.

Ignorance of the IS Med vs CERMED usefulness debate is your problem... not mine. I'm just telling you basic concepts.

Quote

Clan weapons at one point were over the top. Some of the Clan mechs were over the top but this isn't the same game we had when the first Clan mechs came out. Things changed, Quirks got added, new, better optimized IS mechs came out and the Clan mechs are no long the king of the hill. Some Clan mechs are very powerful as are some IS mechs, on the hand, some Clan mechs suck as do some IS mechs but overall Clan Superiority DOES NOT EXIST. That is all I am trying to get across and trying to get people to acknowledge.

If ED goes live, Clan superiority would exist outright. Right now, what we have for balance is meddling to OK balance. Still better than it was before... but still far away from being great.

Quote

Also I will say again here what I have said elsewhere, I could care less about the competitive scene in the game. As with anything competitive, optimization is going to be the goal and only a few mechs are going to achieve that optimization, just because a Clan Kodiak is regarded as the most competitive Assault Mech and shows up in overwhelming numbers in competitive game play doesn't mean Clan Mechs, plural, are superior. The game most of us play isn't in the competitive scene and consists of tons and tons of unoptimized mechs of all shapes and sizes. Some of us even play Gargoyles or Urbanmechs, mechs that wouldn't in a million years be seen in anything remotely competitive. For every superior mech in this game there are 10 that don't make the cut in the competitive scene yet those inferior mechs are still played in the game. Therefore, what relevance whatsoever does competitive gameplay have anything to do with anything other than competitive gameplay?

What part of gameplay from the top tends to trickle down to the masses did you not understand? If it's successful at the top, people will copy it at the lower levels... even if they fail miserably at using the tools properly.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Clan weapons at one point were over the top. Some of the Clan mechs were over the top but this isn't the same game we had when the first Clan mechs came out. Things changed, Quirks got added, new, better optimized IS mechs came out and the Clan mechs are no long the king of the hill. Some Clan mechs are very powerful as are some IS mechs, on the hand, some Clan mechs suck as do some IS mechs but overall Clan Superiority DOES NOT EXIST. That is all I am trying to get across and trying to get people to acknowledge.

Overall Clan superiority is a factual reality of the game. People have compiled the data showing how much better Clan mechs do, score-wise- not even in competitive games, but pub matches. In the leaderboard events Clan mechs performed, on average, 200pts higher than IS.

But even those numbers aren't telling the whole story, considering that these leaderboard events were never done on a per-variant basis. How inflated do you think values are for battlemechs that only have 1-2 good variants?

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 15 October 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

You are talking about numbers, but he's talking about practicality.

I would rather use CERMEDs over IS MEDs given a choice of tech (mixed or otherwise) because the practicality of using a 1ton+1crit weapon at mid range is much better than the short range that the IS MED would provide.

Med Lasers might be the workhorse of the IS, but their role is limited just as much as CERMEDs are jack of all trades type that is useful in many more cases then the IS MED.

Well, drop players in a highly urban map and the IS get the edge.

Which reminds me, Where are those ******* highly-urban maps PGI bragged about to the gaming rags? <smh>

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 16 October 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Well, drop players in a highly urban map and the IS get the edge.

Which reminds me, Where are those ******* highly-urban maps PGI bragged about to the gaming rags? <smh>

They don't. Counter to popular belief, the Clans are extremely good at brawling.

[Novakaine]

Viktor Drake, on 15 October 2016 - 09:13 PM, said:

I am going to have to say no. IS weapons are already cooler than Clan Weapons and quirked, even cooler still. The net result is that most IS mechs are actually running cooler for the same firepower rating than Clan mechs even if they can't mount as many DHS as Clan Mechs.



Then you have to start removing quirks. Honestly right now quite a few of my favorite IS build ONLY work because of the quirks. Start buffing IS weapons and removing quirks and your just as likely to find that your mechs actually perform worse once the quirk has been removed.

Also if anything, Many of the Clan Omni's are now starting to lag behind IS mechs in terms of power mostly due to their build restrictions and buffing the IS mechs without also buffing them would just make the situation worse.

That my friend is the the biggest bag of BS I've ever read in these forums.
Clan power creep is what basically killed CW.
Get real.