38 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Cementi, on 22 October 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Ok I have seen this a number of times that ballistics and missiles should be excluded. While this may make sense logically for some game balance wise it simply does not make sense.

If realism is the only reason you are against ballistics and missiles drawing energy just chalk their energy use up to the ammo feed, or the amount of energy that it takes to realign a gun that weighs 12 tons.

Sometimes options that may not be totally realistic need to be used to balance things. I mean we are talking about giant stompy robots.....not the most realistic thing in the first place.

It makes perfect sense balance-wise because non-Gauss ballistics do not contribute to the alpha striking problem in any meaningful way. ED is meant to limit alpha strikes, not total cyclic DPS. By excluding them, it creates a system whereby you must bring a mix of weapon types to increase your DPS.

Also, SRMs and AC/20 are close quarters weapons. Unless you want all fights at that range to turn into staring contests where the winner is decided by who has more hitpoints, they have to be able to alpha. And they have to be big volleys to justify the risks inherent with going full brawl.

[Cementi]

Multi UAC builds could be nasty before Kodiaks were a thing so I disagree that non gauss builds can cause issues. Also its not the ballistic that is the issue but the stuff that is spat out with it.

Sorry all weapons need to be accounted for otherwise you would just have people avoiding non ED weapons and ligher mechs would be boned even more as they are not able to use those heavier weapon systems.

[Widowmaker1981]

Cementi, on 22 October 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Multi UAC builds could be nasty before Kodiaks were a thing so I disagree that non gauss builds can cause issues. Also its not the ballistic that is the issue but the stuff that is spat out with it.

Sorry all weapons need to be accounted for otherwise you would just have people avoiding non ED weapons and ligher mechs would be boned even more as they are not able to use those heavier weapon systems.

It is OK for builds to be 'nasty'! Thats the difference of opinion here, you want the game to degenerate to circle strafing death by paper cut, many people will just quit if that happens.

[Y E O N N E]

Cementi, on 22 October 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Multi UAC builds could be nasty before Kodiaks were a thing so I disagree that non gauss builds can cause issues. Also its not the ballistic that is the issue but the stuff that is spat out with it.

Sorry all weapons need to be accounted for otherwise you would just have people avoiding non ED weapons and ligher mechs would be boned even more as they are not able to use those heavier weapon systems.

No, you wouldn't have people avoiding non-ED weapons, because the non-ED weapons are either really heavy or require you to play extremely risky.

Lights also would not necessarily be screwed because not every energy weapon has the same draw. A group of six small pulse will always recharge faster than a group of six mediums, etc, because the energy they draw per gun is less.

There is no global mechanic you can implement that will hurt the Kodiak in some disproportionate amount relative to other 100 ton 'Mechs in the game. The problem with the Kodiak is the Kodiak; it's too agile, too quick, and it has perfectly positioned hard-points. Nobody really has words about the DWF doing what the Kodiak does in terms of firepower because it's big and sluggish and has weapons mounted a little low.

[Kuaron]

So... why do you think one needs, additionally to heat, such an “ED” bar, though both would mainly effect lasers?

My logic was always saying me that if lasers are hot anyway, one can limit them via the usual heat system, but then one would need an “ED” bar (with a non-heat effect and non-energy interpretation) to balance the ballistics and missiles to the same level.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 23 October 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

So... why do you think one needs, additionally to heat, such an “ED” bar, though both would mainly effect lasers?

My logic was always saying me that if lasers are hot anyway, one can limit them via the usual heat system, but then one would need an “ED” bar (with a non-heat effect and non-energy interpretation) to balance the ballistics and missiles to the same level.

In my case, I'm not trying to limit laser alphas. I actually disagree with that whole objective.

Rather, with my system single weapons would have significantly faster base cycle times, such that 'Mechs with few hard-points at least have DPS as an option while 'Mechs with lots of hard-points can either choose DPS by firing a few weapons quickly or can use an alpha-strike for poke-styles of play at the cost of a longer wait. This way, quirks for this problem are either completely unnecessary or less imperative.

Example: firing two isMPL, they cycle in a half-second. Firing six, it takes three seconds. Firing six and some LPL, we're gonna have a nice five or more seconds.

If all we want to do is limit alphas, there really is no other mechanic necessary outside of heat.

[Kuaron]

OK, I see.
But does the heat not already effectively limit the output of too any weapons while allowing apparently underarmed Mechs to sustain a better DPM over time?

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 23 October 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

OK, I see.
But does the heat not already effectively limit the output of too any weapons while allowing apparently underarmed Mechs to sustain a better DPM over time?

Theoretically, yes, but in the game right now we are talking about a time-scale much longer than any realistic engagement window. Like, most good builds will soak in about 12-15 seconds, but nobody stays in engaged for that long unless it's an outright brawl. We can't really slam the heat-cap too much to shrink that soak time because then we just get Clan 'Mechs with oodles of DHS standing out in the open firing for days while running that 98% line and shrugging off the more limited alpha strikes from IS 'Mechs which get hot quickly and then moving on them as they huddle to cool off. Which is exactly what happened on PTS5. Gargoyles, Kodiaks, Executioners, basically anything that could boat DHS and cERML was just wrecking face. IS laser boats were just dead except for Lights, which had their own issues.

[Kmieciu]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

non-Gauss ballistics do not contribute to the alpha striking problem in any meaningful way.

This is where you're mistaken.
2xUAC10 is a commonly used to poke and alpha strike twice for 40 damage under 1 second.
3xUAC5 is a 30 damage burst.
4xUAC10 on a KDK-3 was able to output 80 damage under 1 second, and totally broke the game before getting curbed by ghost heat.

Edited by Kmieciu, 25 October 2016 - 12:07 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kmieciu, on 25 October 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

This is where you're mistaken.
2xUAC10 is a commonly used to poke and alpha strike twice for 40 damage under 1 second.
3xUAC5 is a 30 damage burst.
4xUAC10 on a KDK-3 was able to output 80 damage under 1 second, and totally broke the game before getting curbed by ghost heat.

Am I really?

I do not see dakka - vomit builds tearing up the place on Live or competitive matches. The weight of the dakka makes the vomit run hot or without range. Velocity of the UACs also fails to synchronize with lasers on a laterally moving target. Furthermore, a pair ofv10s jams fairly regularly, halving the output as intended. Nobody cares about triple UAC/5.

Kodiak problems are specific to the Kodiak. Nobody ever complained en masse about the same builds on the DWF for obvious reasons. No global mechanic is going to reign in the Kodiak, it will only make everybody weaker. If the KDK can't out-alpha, it will out-DPS.

[Kuaron]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 October 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Theoretically, yes, but in the game right now we are talking about a time-scale much longer than any realistic engagement window. Like, most good builds will soak in about 12-15 seconds, but nobody stays in engaged for that long unless it's an outright brawl. We can't really slam the heat-cap too much to shrink that soak time because then we just get Clan 'Mechs with oodles of DHS standing out in the open firing for days while running that 98% line and shrugging off the more limited alpha strikes from IS 'Mechs which get hot quickly and then moving on them as they huddle to cool off. Which is exactly what happened on PTS5. Gargoyles, Kodiaks, Executioners, basically anything that could boat DHS and cERML was just wrecking face. IS laser boats were just dead except for Lights, which had their own issues.

Ah, always wondered how the meta would be on PTS5, missed the period where one could actually get in a match.
But what you are saying mainly indicates that HS were too effective at the end, doesn't it.

[Akillius]

Don't bother trying to "salvage" EDS it's a bad concept where Assaults are damage limited.
If you want to play a real game with real penaltys then as the 2nd post suggests slow down movement and mess up aiming.
BTW that IS BATTLETECH HEAT SCALE system in use for about 30 years now...
So why try to reinvent the wheel? It's been done and it limits players from trying nonestop alphas because with building up heat comes real penalties so the best way to play is to keep heat low and that is were the balance comes in.
Not from EDS trying to make lights into heavies and assaults fight like lights.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Ah, always wondered how the meta would be on PTS5, missed the period where one could actually get in a match.
But what you are saying mainly indicates that HS were too effective at the end, doesn't it.

Not exactly. What it means is that the Clans' ability to bring more DHS in addition to having more resource-efficient weapons was giving them a tremendous advantage.This would remain true even if the DHS were worse. You would have to weaken the Clan DHS independently of the IS ones to change this (or make IS weapons much colder).

[Kuaron]

But clan is not more heat-efficient, only weight-efficient.
The problem occurs if you can get cheap cooling. If cooling is expensive, the advantage should be none.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 26 October 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

But clan is not more heat-efficient, only weight-efficient.
The problem occurs if you can get cheap cooling. If cooling is expensive, the advantage should be none.

This is simply not true. Laser for laser, yes, it looks that way, but you do not need as many lasers to reach a given amount of damage. Neither do you need to bring big, heavy lasers to get good range. Because of both of these realities, most Clan chassis will always have a better heat efficiency than an IS 'Mech with similar range and damage profiles. That is why the IS got quirks; to level the playing field. Even the Black Knight at the height of its power could only fire twice, the same as a TBR with the same damage rating (54 TBR, 52 BK). It traded range for duration, though. Both 'Mechs were considered useful in the vomit role, it just depended in the map.

PTS results hammered this home once the quirks were removed. When I can get 445 meters and 28+28 damage for a mere 8 tons, and I have 80+ tons to work with, I can out-cool anything in the IS arsenal.

[Railgunner]

if they pgi had just kept all weapons within a six sec adjustment most of this would be a mute point.
heat to should be on a six sec cool down (heat point # cools down per 6sec)
alpha strike should only be aloud with targeting computers

[Widowmaker1981]

Railgunner, on 03 November 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

if they pgi had just kept all weapons within a six sec adjustment most of this would be a mute point.
heat to should be on a six sec cool down (heat point # cools down per 6sec)
alpha strike should only be aloud with targeting computers

Why dont people think things through before spouting idiocy?

What is an Alpha strike, define it please?

Are you saying that people shouldn't be able to fire more than one weapon at a time unless they have a TC? = lol, might as well delete IS at that point.

Or maybe you mean that an Alpha strike is all the weapons on a mech? = lol every mech equips a small laser or MG with no ammo that they never fire - lol, not alpha striking.

also, its allowed.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 04 November 2016 - 01:26 AM.

[Koniving]

I also like where this is going. PGI should focus on more than just heat. Sensor range, convergence, so many possibilities.

[Tibbnak]

ED could be thusly:

If you draw too much power at once, your energy weapons turn into pea shooters due to less energy behind them,
and your ammo starts cooking off if you're using ballistics or missiles too heavily.