38 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

So I am a big believer in a heat scale penalty system and a standardized capacity instead of one that increases with heat sinks and stand by the other thread I started. However I was thinking today that the bottom line is the game is hot enough. I still think heat penalties are needed but we do not need a mechanic that causes more heat. Seems like alot of people see red when they read a topic that may or may not cause more heat.


Ghost heat causes abnormal heat and is pretty much universally hated.

Double heat sinks not being true dubs is also universally hated.

ED really is a ghost heat 2.0, sure it does more than that if you really push it but for most builds the only thing you will notice is ghost heat if you fire too big of an alpha. Due to this many people are highly resistant.

So what if ED worked on the same principal it does now but instead of causing an extra heat spike it did other things. Maybe slowed down weapon cooldowns or a speed, acceleration and torso twist debuff, any or all of those could be options that would be noticeable. On top of it thematicly it makes more sense. Would firing a bunch of weapons really amplify heat, I am no physicist but I am thinking probally not. However the massive drain on a power plant would surely slow things down.


They have code to trigger a loss in speed when a clan mech loses a side torso. Im no programmer but im hoping that for test purposes it might not be to hard to code it to flag a mech with that penalty for a few seconds when ED is triggered.

Also its nearly 3 am.....me english good in title.

[SuperFunkTron]

I like where you are going with this idea. Having other effects like slowing the mech down for "overdrawing" on its power supply makes logical sense. In the case of mechs that were intended to run very hot (nova for example), they could have some quirk that helps reduces the penalty. Slowed reload would also be a good idea when over drawing.

It would really end up encouraging mixing weapon types and force the player to make more careful choices about what to fire ad when and hopefully even drag out the fight to more of a slugfest than quick kill contest.

Edited by SuperFunkTron, 19 October 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ahem.

Check section 4 of my topic.

[Cementi]

I likely missed the post and when I went poking around for threads about various ideas the title did not tell me you had a suggestion along those lines. However while I do like your idea I feel that it is rather complex and frankly not something I can see PGI doing at this point. *edit* clarification, while I do not feel the idea is complex I feel coding it would likely be complex. Which means that it will either be something they simply do not consider or if they did it would be a long way down the pipeline. I think the MWO crowd is getting sick of the waiting game though and some progress on a number of fronts really needs to happen. While I do not think ED is perfect I think if they scrap it totally and do another fortress PGI while they decide what next idea to try it will have a detrimental effect on the community, possibly more so than implementing a potentially unpopular mechanic.

1. I see one of three things happening right now. ED gets back burnered like info war and we will likely never hear of it again.

2. After all the testing they decide on the values they want and it basicly functions as now, ghost heat 2.0

3. They take a look at what you, myself and likely others have said and using the same system ED is right now but have it penalize something other than heat.

Honestly I think number 1 is the most likely at this point as everything has been silence on the ED front for to long. Option number two would very much surprise me as I think the anti ED sentiment has been even more vocal than the anti laser lock crowd that got the entire infowar thing scrapped. Option 3 is pretty much a pipe dream but maybe if we can generate some interest and actually get people posting in the ED section again we can drum up not only player interest but Dev interest.

Edited by Cementi, 19 October 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[Taxxian]

Very good Idea! I like it!

But slowing down and block reload is not enough...

The Direstar at 1km range that just 1 shot you with 13 ERPPC does not really care if he is slowed down and cant fire for a minute...

But a simple rule like: "When at minus 30 Energy the reactor shuts down and whatever brought you there will never leave your gun barrels/missile tubes." Should solve the problem.

Afterthought:
Brawlers are much more impeded by the suggested effects, something must be done that affects snipers more than brawlers to counter that...

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Taxxian, on 20 October 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Very good Idea! I like it!

But slowing down and block reload is not enough...

The Direstar at 1km range that just 1 shot you with 13 ERPPC does not really care if he is slowed down and cant fire for a minute...

But a simple rule like: "When at minus 30 Energy the reactor shuts down and whatever brought you there will never leave your gun barrels/missile tubes." Should solve the problem.

Afterthought:
Brawlers are much more impeded by the suggested effects, something must be done that affects snipers more than brawlers to counter that...

Just because you like brawling more than snipeing? Or could it be, that the hot energy builds arent even brawlers? questions, questions everywhere....

[Taxxian]

@Cara Carcass

What you write there makes absolutely no sense whatsoever... Please stop convoluting the topic and let people write that take the matter serious... like bringing arguments for or against OPs idea...

[Cementi]

Snipers would have to check their fire and due to the range will be able to disengage to cooldown much easier.

However Brawlers can put out far more damage in a much shorter space of time than a sniper can so it makes sense that they might have to deal with heat a bit more.

Also changes like this would open up the option of carrying a weapon loadout with some long range options and some short range options. Then you only use the weapons that you can at that range or if you think your in a situation where its kill or be killed, or worse yet you know there is not getting out of it alive then you go for broke and alpha untill you cannot.

The point of changes like this is to get people to realize that they do not have to fire all their weapons at once. Other options will exist.

[Y E O N N E]

Taxxian, on 20 October 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Very good Idea! I like it!

But slowing down and block reload is not enough...

The Direstar at 1km range that just 1 shot you with 13 ERPPC does not really care if he is slowed down and cant fire for a minute...

But a simple rule like: "When at minus 30 Energy the reactor shuts down and whatever brought you there will never leave your gun barrels/missile tubes." Should solve the problem.

Afterthought:
Brawlers are much more impeded by the suggested effects, something must be done that affects snipers more than brawlers to counter that...

A Dire Star firing 13 PPCs is going to overheat and shut down simply because he has generated 195 points of heat. He will then promptly detonate.

Dire Stars are not a concern, ever.

Having ED affect cool-down doesn't replace the heat-and-shutdown mechanic, it's just another thing to manage in addition to it.

[Taxxian]

The DireStar was just an extreme example...

But people will simply build things like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...394dc4ed286541f

Jump up behind the ridge, dish out 75 Pinpoint from 800m and fall back to safety until ED effects are over...

Looking the the MWOWM and the current QuickPlayQueue snipers already have a slight edge over brawlers, if ED now promotes sniping, nobody would brawl anymore.

I was there when the 4+ PPC Stalkers ruled the day and later when Highlanders and Victors did... believe me that is a problem... :-)

Edited by Taxxian, 20 October 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Ghost heat is not universally hated. It is better than energy draw at creating pretty equal and acceptable balanced alphas, without crippling mixed builds or ballistic boats.

DHS that aren't true 2.0 also don't matter. Heat dissipation is in a good place atm, making DHS true would make alot more builds able to sustain fire almost infinitely.

We don't need a new system now that the system that was implemented long ago has had 90% of the kinks worked out.
Game will never be perfect, but in the current state it is possible to play many different build types or weight classes.
Why risk ruining that will massive and excessive modification this late in the games life cycle?

[Taxxian]

This has been discussed many times...

Ghost Heat is bad for the following reasons:
- you need an external ressource like smurfy to calculate it, next to no ingame information
- its exponential, so even if you had all variables in your head you would need a calculator
- it gives you magic numbers for every weapon
example: 3 LPL, 2 LRM20...
- if you fire the wrong weapon group a fraction of a second to early you will get the full penalty which may be huge, there is not even a display showing you when to fire
- it has tons of loopholes like LPL and ML, on clan side this gives you an alpha of 68... and Ghostheat cant solve this problem, because if they put both weapons in the same group 2 LPL and 2 ML would inflict the same penalty as 4 LPL, which is huge...

ED solves all of these problems... and I like new things^^

Edited by Taxxian, 21 October 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Taxxian, on 21 October 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

This has been discussed many times...

Ghost Heat is bad for the following reasons:
- you need an external ressource like smurfy to calculate it, next to no ingame information
- its exponential, so even if you had all variables in your head you would need a calculator
- it gives you magic numbers for every weapon
example: 3 LPL, 2 LRM20...
- if you fire the wrong weapon group a fraction of a second to early you will get the full penalty which may be huge, there is not even a display showing you when to fire
- it has tons of loopholes like LPL and ML, on clan side this gives you an alpha of 68... and Ghostheat cant solve this problem, because if they put both weapons in the same group 2 LPL and 2 ML would inflict the same penalty as 4 LPL, which is huge...

ED solves all of these problems... and I like new things^^

Exact values are not needed, simply testing in testing grounds will tell you if the heat is acceptable or not. Plus lots of games need 3rd party information, so what? I had to spend a lot of hours creating a spreadsheet to tell me what build in diablo 3 would be the best DPS..

Its exponential for a reason, i.e. to STOP people firing certain types of alpha, because they are too strong (4+ PPCs, etc). And again, exact values are not needed. Its enough to know that 3 PPCs is very hot, and 4 is a never do this ever situation.

Magic numbers for every weapon are the point, because certain weapons are stronger when combined than others. Its why ED doesnt work without changing values for different weapons (making it just as opaque). 4 PPCs alpha is VASTLY stronger than 4 SRM6, despite being less actual damage.

The 0.5s gap is a flaw in the system, ill grant, it should scale depending on how fast. Why not just fix this?

The loopholes are the only thing in the game currently promoting mixed builds (yes, synergistic ones like PPC/AC5, but thats fine - there is no reason to promote illogical frankenbuilds). That boogieman laser alpha isnt even a problem, laser builds NEED to have high alphas or there is no point dealing with the beam durations - GH does its job fine by forcing MLs in and thus reducing the range of the alpha.

[Y E O N N E]

Taxxian, on 20 October 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

The DireStar was just an extreme example...

But people will simply build things like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...394dc4ed286541f

Jump up behind the ridge, dish out 75 Pinpoint from 800m and fall back to safety until ED effects are over...

Looking the the MWOWM and the current QuickPlayQueue snipers already have a slight edge over brawlers, if ED now promotes sniping, nobody would brawl anymore.

I was there when the 4+ PPC Stalkers ruled the day and later when Highlanders and Victors did... believe me that is a problem... :-)

The idea isn't to prevent them from doing this entirely, it's to de-incentivize it. It will very much matter that it takes a long time too cycle after such a large alpha because it gives the enemy time to react and move in. The relative fast rate of fire on PPCs and Gauss right now is what prevents teams from being able to take other options; the gaps between shots are too small for a team to move in without getting shredded. Similarly, lasers burn too long for the damage they deal to compete with the FLD.

Widowmaker1981, on 21 October 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

The loopholes are the only thing in the game currently promoting mixed builds (yes, synergistic ones like PPC/AC5, but thats fine - there is no reason to promote illogical frankenbuilds). That boogieman laser alpha isnt even a problem, laser builds NEED to have high alphas or there is no point dealing with the beam durations - GH does its job fine by forcing MLs in and thus reducing the range of the alpha.

Tangent: I feel like PGI should actually bump the isML ghost limit from 6 to 8. Clans get 42 damage before ghosting with cERML, while IS currently only get 30. It makes certain builds unrealistically worse than they should be (i.e. 8xML on a BJ-1X).

[Mordric]

Cementi, on 19 October 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

So I am a big believer in a heat scale penalty system and a standardized capacity instead of one that increases with heat sinks and stand by the other thread I started. However I was thinking today that the bottom line is the game is hot enough. I still think heat penalties are needed but we do not need a mechanic that causes more heat. Seems like alot of people see red when they read a topic that may or may not cause more heat.


Ghost heat causes abnormal heat and is pretty much universally hated.

Double heat sinks not being true dubs is also universally hated.

ED really is a ghost heat 2.0, sure it does more than that if you really push it but for most builds the only thing you will notice is ghost heat if you fire too big of an alpha. Due to this many people are highly resistant.

So what if ED worked on the same principal it does now but instead of causing an extra heat spike it did other things. Maybe slowed down weapon cooldowns or a speed, acceleration and torso twist debuff, any or all of those could be options that would be noticeable. On top of it thematicly it makes more sense. Would firing a bunch of weapons really amplify heat, I am no physicist but I am thinking probally not. However the massive drain on a power plant would surely slow things down.


They have code to trigger a loss in speed when a clan mech loses a side torso. Im no programmer but im hoping that for test purposes it might not be to hard to code it to flag a mech with that penalty for a few seconds when ED is triggered.

Also its nearly 3 am.....me english good in title.

What if they had a 10 point Heat system?
1=Green Fire every thing no penalty, and 10=Deep red Possible Engine explosion or ammo. in-between would be be thing like slower cool downs, range, slower engine,

[Kuaron]

First thing ED needs would be a consistent interpretation. Weapon using energy and the engine firing up is exactly what heat represents.

After we get one, we can speak about what ED effects and what would make sense. Of course ED causing more heat does none. But since ED makes no sense in the first place, from no sense to no sense is not an improvement.

(I, too, was enthusiastic to see something new instead of the acknowledgedly bad GH, but as more one thinks about ED,...)

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 21 October 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

First thing ED needs would be a consistent interpretation. Weapon using energy and the engine firing up is exactly what heat represents.

After we get one, we can speak about what ED effects and what would make sense. Of course ED causing more heat does none. But since ED makes no sense in the first place, from no sense to no sense is not an improvement.

(I, too, was enthusiastic to see something new instead of the acknowledgedly bad GH, but as more one thinks about ED,...)

ED as we have it here is not actually ED.

Proper ED would be having your engine with a fixed out-put, certain weapons drawing at a certain rate, and having those weapons have reduced cycle times when their combined draw is less than the engine's output because there isn't enough juice to charge them at the fastest rate.

Obviously, ballistics and missiles would be excluded in this measure, but that's honestly fine since adjusting their rate of fire would be sufficient to reign them in as their alpha is low or spread.

[SuperFunkTron]

out of curiosity, is the ED test server still up? I didn't have a chance to test it out when it was released.

[Kuaron]

You can use the testing ground and store and stuff, but you cannot to the gaming servers and actually start a match.

[Cementi]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 October 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

ED as we have it here is not actually ED.

Proper ED would be having your engine with a fixed out-put, certain weapons drawing at a certain rate, and having those weapons have reduced cycle times when their combined draw is less than the engine's output because there isn't enough juice to charge them at the fastest rate.

Obviously, ballistics and missiles would be excluded in this measure, but that's honestly fine since adjusting their rate of fire would be sufficient to reign them in as their alpha is low or spread.

Ok I have seen this a number of times that ballistics and missiles should be excluded. While this may make sense logically for some game balance wise it simply does not make sense.

If realism is the only reason you are against ballistics and missiles drawing energy just chalk their energy use up to the ammo feed, or the amount of energy that it takes to realign a gun that weighs 12 tons.

Sometimes options that may not be totally realistic need to be used to balance things. I mean we are talking about giant stompy robots.....not the most realistic thing in the first place.