36 replies to this topic

[Davers]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Strange thing... There is always such kind of players on forums, who want to kill game for majority of other players in order to achieve some ephemeral "better game". Via making it extremely hardcore for example. Are they elitists, who want game to be exclusive for them? I.e. "I accomplished this hard goal - then you should do it too or GTFO"? Or "I suffered - and you should suffer too"? Or they're just simple trolls?

Majority of players like Skirmish just because it's the only "true MechWarrior" mode. Players build their 'Mechs not to run around map, play hide'n'seek and capture some nodes. We want to actually kill enemies - we don't need CapWarrior Online, sorry. We don't need modes, that encourage avoiding enemies, instead of fighting against them. We don't need Assault, where players play "Who will NASCAR and capture base first" game, simply because if you wouldn't play it - your enemies would win match due to doing it. We don't need Conquest, because we don't want teams to win matches against superior forces just due to focusing on capturing nodes. The core idea behind capturing nodes in any game - is to shift players' focus from center of the map and make players fight for them - not to play CapWarrior Online, i.e. focus on capturing bases and win match via capturing only. It's nonsense. That's why Conquest is relatively good on small maps, but completely unbearable on large ones. And I've already mentioned Domination. It's snipe/LRM fest on most of maps. And players hate to be wrecked without any chances to deal some damage to enemies. That's because players hate poptarts so much. Just because shotting enemies, while staying completely safe and not giving them any chances to shot you back and counter you some way - is pure cheat.

That's why Skirmish - is best mode in this game. That's why players prefer maps, like Canyon, HPG and Mining. Simply because they are the most fair and balanced ones. Deal with it. And say thx, that PGI added "soft" map/mode selection, that allows you to get, what you want, at least eventually. They could leave "hard" mode selection instead, so you would not be able to play your precious Conquest at all. Same with maps. "Ban map" feature - is feature, that is implemented in most other games. Even in Wow, despite of fact, that Blizzard are well known exactly for forcing players to play the way, that is "good for game, not for players". It's implementation - was the next logical step after such maps, like Terra Therma, was implemented.

As a Scotsman myself, I can always appreciate a "no true Scotsman " logical fallacy.

[Kanil]

Domination is the best concept for a game mode PGI's ever come up with. Their execution is somewhat lacking, but Domination is/can be great.

Domination doesn't try to prevent the skirmish like Conquest, and isn't completely irrelevant like Assault. It instead merely guides the skirmish to a section of the map of PGI's choosing. Unfortunately, PGI loves to plop the dom zone where everyone goes to anyway.

Simply pushing around spawn locations and domination zones would allow PGI to get a ton more mileage out of their maps, and the mode itself. A shame they haven't done so yet.

[MrMadguy]

Blind Baku, on 22 October 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

This guy, he gets it.

Ideas on Assault... well that is another thread.

Edit:


Someplayers actually want their stompy death machines to require more than just stompy death. Don't get me wrong, the point of a stompy death machine is to inflict pixelated death on the reds... but why not require more than just death. Objectives are broken in some modes (Assault mode nascars), but when you have modes that require other forms of play (Conquest, Domi) you still encourage fights you just either spread them out across the map (conquest) or localize them to one portion of the map (Domi*).

Can you win Conquest with a pyrrhic victory? Yeah, I had a match like that last night, good fights but the MLX with no gun won against the remaining enemy remaining mechs because no one took the time to think about anything but good fights. Sucks for them, but you know what, they still had good fights**.

Can you get a hard derp team in Domi that doesn't seem to understand you have to be in the circle to win? Yeah, but #puglife will always be a struggle, any game mode.

I'm with Winterdark, the game doesn't need less variety, it could use more polished variety.
*I would like to see the circles move on the maps, allowing variety in the locations would keep people on their toes more.
**They also should have scattered to cap instead of trying to chase down the light. Even if they had killed it they would still have timed out.

Any MechSim games have always been about destroying enemy 'Mechs. As I've said numerous times already: if you expect some other gameplay - then you've picked the wrong game.

You all actually don't understand anything is game development. What PGI tries to achieve - is to provide various playstyles. They create maps with different Metas. They create different modes, that try to shift players' focus towards different spots on the same map. "Arena" maps, "king of hill" maps, "bottleneck" maps, open maps, etc. All recent maps tend to be "mixed" ones - relatively big, open center, cover at edges. So different modes are played differently on the same map. Different players like different playstyles, so game should be able to provide all of them. Bad thing - this game doesn't have enough players to run all possible playstyles at once. We don't have millions of players, as CS or Overwatch has, so we just can't split players between different maps, modes and Metas. Some players have to be forced to play, what they don't like to play, in order to be actually able to play this game at all. For example when we had "hard" mode choice - wait times became infinite for some players due to lack of population. Yeah, there are two possible solution - "RNG rotation" vs "voting". And this choice boils down to simple "minority" vs "majority" choice for PGI. And they have chosen majority. Simply because "bad" game with lots of players is better, than good, but dead one.

Conclusion: forcing certain maps/modes on players - isn't solution. We have this problem not because players are "bad", but because we actually lack players. Your problem is simple - you are minority. And there is only one way to solve this problem - bring new players into this game, who also like maps/modes, you like. You can't? Then deal with it. Deal with the fact, that in order to be actually able to play this game, you have to play maps/modes, majority of MWO's playerbase like. PGI won't run their servers personally for you, sorry.

[Bombast]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Majority of players like Skirmish just because it's the only "true MechWarrior" mode. Players build their 'Mechs not to run around map, play hide'n'seek and capture some nodes. We want to actually kill enemies - we don't need CapWarrior Online, sorry.

I'm thoroughly convinced that we're playing different games at this point.

Objectives don't exist to provide an alternative means of victory - They exist to force a fight. You talk about Conquest, Domination, and Assault being 'sneaky,' yet those are the modes where fights start faster - Skirmishes can take upwards of 7 minutes before anyone dies. 7 minutes. Last night I had a skirmish match where it took 7 minutes to get our first hard lock on the enemy. The day before, 6 minutes. Last week I played at least 10 matches where we switched spawn points before we figured out where the other team was.

Know the longest time it has ever taken me to get into a fight on a Conquest map? 2 minutes. Domination? About 1 1/2 minutes.

Even in matches where the fight starts early in Skirmish, they usually end up lasting longer. Skirmish incentives people to disengage constantly, because there's never any stakes - And, of course, we've all been in those matches where one ******* Locust has decided he'd rather burn 5 minutes running away or shut down on top of a mountain then just get this show over with.

There's a reason games similar to MWO, like the World of X games and War Thunder, all have objective based matches as their primary, or only, means of play. It keeps people focused. It forces conflict. It makes stuff happen. Skirmish is the sandbox mode - The players make it up as they go. Sometimes it's fun. Most of the time is little better then a free-for-all death match where your fate has been shackled to 11 people that have been selected arbitrarily.

As it is, it feels very much like Skirmish mode only exist because they can't properly place objectives on the map (Alpine Peaks probably being one of the better examples. Seriously, that huge damn map and THAT'S the spot they pick?).

Edited by Bombast, 22 October 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Blind Baku]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Any MechSim games have always been about destroying enemy 'Mechs. As I've said numerous times already: if you expect some other gameplay - then you've picked the wrong game.

You all actually don't understand anything is game development. What PGI tries to achieve - is to provide various playstyles. They create maps with different Metas. They create different modes, that try to shift players' focus towards different spots on the same map. "Arena" maps, "king of hill" maps, "bottleneck" maps, open maps, etc. All recent maps tend to be "mixed" ones - relatively big, open center, cover at edges. So different modes are played differently on the same map. Different players like different playstyles, so game should be able to provide all of them. Bad thing - this game doesn't have enough players to run all possible playstyles at once. We don't have millions of players, as CS or Overwatch has, so we just can't split players between different maps, modes and Metas. Some players have to be forced to play, what they don't like to play, in order to be actually able to play this game at all. For example when we had "hard" mode choice - wait times became infinite for some players due to lack of population. Yeah, there are two possible solution - "RNG rotation" vs "voting". And this choice boils down to simple "minority" vs "majority" choice for PGI. And they have chosen majority. Simply because "bad" game with lots of players is better, than good, but dead one.

Conclusion: forcing certain maps/modes on players - isn't solution. We have this problem not because players are "bad", but because we actually lack players. Your problem is simple - you are minority. And there is only one way to solve this problem - bring new players into this game, who also like maps/modes, you like. You can't? Then deal with it. Deal with the fact, that in order to be actually able to play this game, you have to play maps/modes, majority of MWO's playerbase like. PGI won't run their servers personally for you, sorry.

(Emphasis added)
So I should moan about Skirmish on Caustic, because it is mediocre map and numbing game mode?

I had a lot more to say, but arguing with brick walls that don't do much to counter points* is kind of lame.

Your conclusion is that the game should focus on one map mode, skirmish, and offer just skirmish... all skirmish, all the time, is bold but flawed. Again maybe 30% of the games I play are skirmish but vote, and an additional 30% turn into skirmish because... that is just what happens (probably more as domination IS skirmish at a pre-appointed location, and offers the benefit of no last mech standing that runs off and hides for 7 min), so roughly 60% of games are a form of skirmish. And the remaining help to broaden the appeal of the game.

Your intended insult, that I and others like me, foolishly chose the wrong game and should go back to farmville, is misguided and shows you never took the time to understand what we're saying.

Also the repeat use of "No true scot"? Can you at least use some other fallacy?

Alternate game modes provide options and leverage. Learning to use those to the abuse of the opponent is what makes them good to acceptable game modes, which is more than skirmish has going for it. And maybe its the lame nechbeard in me that slathers over immersion /sarcasm, but the idea of securing strategic resources or coms up-links makes sense in a mechwarrior universe, and IMO works as a mechanic.

*Your thoughts on map dev a pretty accurate, and it is a large part of why I like the direction of the map dev team, but that is a conversation for another post.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

No, remove skirmish. Make Assault on team defending one attacking, so you can't base swap with no shots fired as there is no reason to leave if you are defending and no reason to stay if you are attacking because you have no place to stay at with no base.

Chance Conquest and Domination to have a set of places the objectives can spawn so you have 3-4 variations per map of where stuff is, and change deployment for all modes to do the same. Would make matches a bit less repetitive and require figuring out if it is worth it to run and take sigma at the start or not.

Oh and while we are at it, remove Alpine from rotation, keep it for private matches, hell, make it a CW map, but, I absolutely hate that map for pugs.

[Blind Baku]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 22 October 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

No, remove skirmish. Make Assault on team defending one attacking, so you can't base swap with no shots fired as there is no reason to leave if you are defending and no reason to stay if you are attacking because you have no place to stay at with no base.

Chance Conquest and Domination to have a set of places the objectives can spawn so you have 3-4 variations per map of where stuff is, and change deployment for all modes to do the same. Would make matches a bit less repetitive and require figuring out if it is worth it to run and take sigma at the start or not.

Oh and while we are at it, remove Alpine from rotation, keep it for private matches, hell, make it a CW map, but, I absolutely hate that map for pugs.

But... I like alpine when in my RFL/SHC...
I'd rather not just remove Skirmish, but finding a way to tweak it would be nice (multiple spawns, or selectable spawns, or something).
Not sold on the Assault fix, I would want to see it more fleshed out, but open to it.
Conquest and Domi fix, absolutely!

[MrMadguy]

Blind Baku, on 22 October 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

(Emphasis added)
So I should moan about Skirmish on Caustic, because it is mediocre map and numbing game mode?

I had a lot more to say, but arguing with brick walls that don't do much to counter points* is kind of lame.

Your conclusion is that the game should focus on one map mode, skirmish, and offer just skirmish... all skirmish, all the time, is bold but flawed. Again maybe 30% of the games I play are skirmish but vote, and an additional 30% turn into skirmish because... that is just what happens (probably more as domination IS skirmish at a pre-appointed location, and offers the benefit of no last mech standing that runs off and hides for 7 min), so roughly 60% of games are a form of skirmish. And the remaining help to broaden the appeal of the game.

Your intended insult, that I and others like me, foolishly chose the wrong game and should go back to farmville, is misguided and shows you never took the time to understand what we're saying.

Also the repeat use of "No true scot"? Can you at least use some other fallacy?

Alternate game modes provide options and leverage. Learning to use those to the abuse of the opponent is what makes them good to acceptable game modes, which is more than skirmish has going for it. And maybe its the lame nechbeard in me that slathers over immersion /sarcasm, but the idea of securing strategic resources or coms up-links makes sense in a mechwarrior universe, and IMO works as a mechanic.

*Your thoughts on map dev a pretty accurate, and it is a large part of why I like the direction of the map dev team, but that is a conversation for another post.

Yeah. Skirmish is Skirmish. Assault - is just Skirmish, if teams don't have any cowards in them, or Skirmish around one of the bases otherwise. Conquest - is essentially Skirmish around Theta. And Domination - is Skirmish around center of the map. And this is just because players simply want to play MechWarrior - not CapWarrior, CampWarrior, WalkWarrior or HideWarrior.

Why do I constantly talk about players, picking the wrong game? Because players constantly ask for things, that are against spirit of this game. They come from MMOs and other games, that hammer the idea, that "game should cater to every single possible playstyle" into their brain. They forget, that there are actually different genres, that cater to different playstyles, and that it's players, who should choose right genre, that suits their playstyle - not game, that should change to suit them. They ask for "rogue style" gameplay, "stealth action" gameplay, scout-style gameplay, snipe-style gameplay, they ask for economy, trading, auction, controlling planets, managing resources and some other crap, that has never been part of MechWarrior. Now you ask for game, that is more tactical. May be you should play RTS then? Or puzzles? And what's next? You will ask to turn MWO into MMO? And into racing game? Or into puzzle? And MWO is shooter - it's about shooting big robots.

Edited by MrMadguy, 22 October 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[Blind Baku]

I'm sorry, but by design some mechs are built around moving about the map a lot. Do you limit your game play to Atlas'? The walkwarrior comment usually stems from slow mechs not being bothered to move...

I get what your saying, "Moar gud fights! Less other stuff". What I am trying to say is roughly "Objectives lead to fights".

I'd rather not play capwarrior online, but if I know there are caps, I can ambush... if I know there is a circle for king of the domination, I can predict the enemy better and think outside the circle. If I know there is not objective beyond last mech standing... I get it, I can expect both teams to hide for 7 minutes while expending LRMs on locks that last 1/2 a second, thus putting them into the dirt, all the while [complaining] at the light mechs for not scouting and getting good locks, till finally the fight breaks out.

Skirmish has the objective of being just a fight, and surviving, it encourages hiding, and passivity. Domination, with the timer, forces players to grab their [courage] and push in or loose.

Forgive me, and most of the pilots I know for wanting more [types of fights] than just death match.

And I agree (to a limited point) that people ask for a bunch of things that arn't very mechwarrior*, but if you think stealth has no place then what was the point of a solid half the mechs in the game? Just because your fatlas encourages a mentality of get stuck in, as soon as possible, doesn't mean all mechs are designed to brawl.

The game is intended to be a Shooter, and you want to know something interesting about shooters? Sometimes rouge/stealth/"cowardly" play styles are totally applicable. Sometimes walking to get into a position, or to control a point, makes more sense than not.

*"for economy, trading, auction, controlling planets and some other crap" - While I wouldn't mind some of those things, because they would make it easier to acquire new mechs to use to destroy other mechs, they are not the soul of the game.

Edit: Italics added for clarity, as it seems that you think I want to play excavator and crane simulator online

Edited by Blind Baku, 22 October 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Bombast]

Yup. The best, most fighty mode in the game.

[Mystere]

DAYLEET, on 21 October 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

Domination gets voted every single time skirmish isn't a choice. Just double Skirmish chances to appear in the votes and be done with it. In comparison to domination, Skirmish isn't a braindead mode anymore, at least people did something different ne In a blue moon. Domination make any map crappy, repetitive, and it sucks the fun out of the game.

How about removing Skirmish and doubling Domination instead?

[Mystere]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Any MechSim games have always been about destroying enemy 'Mechs. As I've said numerous times already: if you expect some other gameplay - then you've picked the wrong game.

That's just like saying because someone only ate fried steak and boiled potatoes their entire lives, all other dishes are unnecessary.

But then again you really can't teach old dogs new tricks, it seems.

[Chuck Jager]

Any mode that makes player have to be closer to the front and share armor with the front line is good.

Support is not a foreign word for let others do the heavy lifting while I get the cookies. Many of the other modes and maps create an environment for this type of play and the players can choose his if they want.

I like the fact that folks can bring a closer range mech and not be left holding the bag unable to close the distance to 400m before one side has a 6 mech lead.

Yes it does favor a specific playstyle that many may not like, but PGI has given players a choice and this is what they want. You can not say here is your choice and then hide what people want to allow other choices to picked. Well this does happen everyday in business and politics - so what I mean is you can not get caught doing it.

Hint different times of days and servers do have patterns of map/mode selection along with playstyles. It is not considered an exploit to change your days and playtime to use this to your advantage.

[Belacose]

The only time I hate Domination mode is when I'm in a light and the rest of the team demands I get in the circle right away just so I can get pinned down while everyone else, including the Assaults camp back outside the circle playing peek-a-boo.

[Ghogiel]

Abomination game mode is all kinds of terrible.

[MrMadguy]

Blind Baku, on 22 October 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but by design some mechs are built around moving about the map a lot. Do you limit your game play to Atlas'? The walkwarrior comment usually stems from slow mechs not being bothered to move...

I get what your saying, "Moar gud fights! Less other stuff". What I am trying to say is roughly "Objectives lead to fights".

I'd rather not play capwarrior online, but if I know there are caps, I can ambush... if I know there is a circle for king of the domination, I can predict the enemy better and think outside the circle. If I know there is not objective beyond last mech standing... I get it, I can expect both teams to hide for 7 minutes while expending LRMs on locks that last 1/2 a second, thus putting them into the dirt, all the while [complaining] at the light mechs for not scouting and getting good locks, till finally the fight breaks out.

Skirmish has the objective of being just a fight, and surviving, it encourages hiding, and passivity. Domination, with the timer, forces players to grab their [courage] and push in or loose.

Forgive me, and most of the pilots I know for wanting more [types of fights] than just death match.

And I agree (to a limited point) that people ask for a bunch of things that arn't very mechwarrior*, but if you think stealth has no place then what was the point of a solid half the mechs in the game? Just because your fatlas encourages a mentality of get stuck in, as soon as possible, doesn't mean all mechs are designed to brawl.

The game is intended to be a Shooter, and you want to know something interesting about shooters? Sometimes rouge/stealth/"cowardly" play styles are totally applicable. Sometimes walking to get into a position, or to control a point, makes more sense than not.

*"for economy, trading, auction, controlling planets and some other crap" - While I wouldn't mind some of those things, because they would make it easier to acquire new mechs to use to destroy other mechs, they are not the soul of the game.

Edit: Italics added for clarity, as it seems that you think I want to play excavator and crane simulator online

When players have to waste 7 minutes of their time before actually starting to play the game - is map design problem, not players' problem.

Yeah. You guessed it right - I'm Assault/Heavy pilot. No, I don't hate Lights/Mediums principally. I play 'Mechs, that has great visual appearance. And all Mediums and Lights are ugly. As simple, as that. I would play Vindicator may be. But that's all. If PGI would release Light/Medium, that isn't ugly - I would gladly play it.

The problem is in fact, that PGI do some weird thing - they make maps, that cater to...Lights. On this maps PGI want speed to matter, they want give them ability to scout and ambush enemies via running around them. Ok... Sounds reasonable? Game should have maps and modes, that cater to all possible playstyles? Yeah. But the problem is in fact, that only 2-3 'Mechs in every team - are Lights. And what about other 9-10 players? What they are supposed to do? To go AFKing? To DC? Do you know, that one of MWO's basic rules - is "follow Assaults - not Lights"? I.e. even on such maps Lights tend to stay with Assaults, which means 7 minutes of pointless walking. That's, what I'm talking about. If PGI want to make maps/modes, that cater to specific players - they should separate them into dedicated modes. "Scout mode" for example. I guess, now we have one? No? And QP should have maps/modes, that satisfy ALL players, playing them. Skirmish and maps, like Canyon, HPG and Mining - satisfy ALL players, not just some minority, like 16-25% of team.

Conclusion: Why do I actually hate PVP games? Almost all PVP players are selfish and toxic. You should learn to respect others' opinions and preferences. This game - isn't your personal roller coaster, where other 23 players - are just bots, who have to satisfy your needs. They actually want to play this game too.

Edited by MrMadguy, 22 October 2016 - 09:59 PM.

[Zergling]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Majority of players like Skirmish just because it's the only "true MechWarrior" mode.

Translation: most players are too stupid for anything more complicated than 'move towards enemy and shoot' so they suck at the modes that require them to do more than that.
They then try to justify their dislike of the modes they suck at with No True Scotsman fallacies.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Yeah. Skirmish is Skirmish. Assault - is just Skirmish, if teams don't have any cowards in them, or Skirmish around one of the bases otherwise. Conquest - is essentially Skirmish around Theta. And Domination - is Skirmish around center of the map. And this is just because players simply want to play MechWarrior - not CapWarrior, CampWarrior, WalkWarrior or HideWarrior.

Skirmish is CampWarrior Online, because there is nothing to focus the action.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Now you ask for game, that is more tactical. May be you should play RTS then? Or puzzles? And what's next? You will ask to turn MWO into MMO? And into racing game? Or into puzzle? And MWO is shooter - it's about shooting big robots.

Nice Strawman arguments.

It sounds like you dislike the changes to MWO because you can't adapt to them, resulting in you not doing good at the game.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

When players have to waste 7 minutes of their time before actually starting to play the game - is map design problem, not players' problem.

Lol no.

It isn't the maps that are the problem, but gameplay meta that encourages blobbing and focus fire, which makes offensive moves much riskier than camping.
That can't be fixed without reworking much of the game from the ground up.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Yeah. You guessed it right - I'm Assault/Heavy pilot.

And one with a rather limited knowledge of how the game works.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

The problem is in fact, that PGI do some weird thing - they make maps, that cater to...Lights.

Just to remind everyone, this is a player that thinks light mechs are cheats, because of his inability to handle them.

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

You should learn to respect others' opinions and preferences.

And here you are, belittling the preferences of others with No True Scotsman fallacies.

Bombast, on 22 October 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm thoroughly convinced that we're playing different games at this point.

It's a different game down there in the bottom 1%.

Edited by Zergling, 23 October 2016 - 12:59 AM.