22 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

So part of the reason why Clan mech is so good is because of the XL engine. Cause even with omnipods, there are honestly IS mechs with much better hardpoints (cough warhammer, cough)

And as for weapon tech, MWO balance makes it so that you can say there's merit to both systems.

So it really comes down to just XL.

Now, we can't just make XL engine outright like clan XL. Or else, there would be no reason to carry standard.

But what if, you remove the weakness of the XL check, but instead of just 3 pod space from each torse, you take away 4 or 5 (probably 5, I think just 1 additional is still too little to incentivize standard usage)

In terms of survivability, standard is still technically better as you can lose both ST and still live with the CT. But I think most people will choose the XL because the XL check penalty is gone.

Now, the immediate effect...

Because weapons on the lower ends (SP, SL) are exactly equivalent on both sides barring minor range differences (which almost never come into play), IS lights will be buffed TREMENDOUSLY, and will pull them far ahead of the status of Clan lights.

Medium will benefit greatly as well, as most people are running XL anyways and matching up fairly evenly against clan mediums.

Where benefits starting to peter off seem to be the upper end... People can certainly counter extra pod space requirement with standard construction. So that's one way to go. But either way, hopefully the extra pod space becomes a deterrent for IS heavies and assault to not boat super weapons, which don't have the same GH penalty as clans.

However, with IS mechs all of a sudden becoming lot more robust and tanky, while I don't propose removing quirks as they make mechs unique and incentivize people to diversify their builds to utility full advantage, it now becomes a good chance to expand quirks onto Clan mechs as well, so that they too, may enjoy quirks giving their mechs personalities.

(come on, CT and ST bonus for EBJ with + pitch angles, PGI, make it happen!)

Now, I have no lore basis to this. But let's be honest here, is lore even still a thing? With erectile dysfun... being proposed at one point (and due for revisit after New Years), is Lore even relevant? I say just f the lore and balance the game however it makes sense.

(o one thing do need change, IS gauss rifle... for being like 3 tons heavier, it really needs some sort of differentiating mechanics. Like maybe give it the ability to fire 3 at once instead of 2. There should not be any identical weapon between Clan and IS that has a flat out winner in terms of capabilities. All other weapons have their own niche for their respective factions, why doesn't gauss do?)

Edited by razenWing, 29 October 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

razenWing, on 29 October 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Because weapons on the lower ends (SP, SL) are exactly equivalent on both sides barring minor range differences (which almost never come into play), IS lights will be buffed TREMENDOUSLY, and will pull them far ahead of the status of Clan lights.

...clam smalls are OUTRAGEOUSLY superior to the Spheroid stuff, if you didn't know.
Moreso that the Spheroid smalls are garbage, and should be buffed.


Now, are you suggesting that the isXL be made 16 slots large? 6CT plus five in each ST?
A ) That kills off stock builds, which is a no no
B ) that goes against PGI's no slot touching rule



And, why can't you make them identical to the cXL, and buff the STD?
Because even if fix the XL imbalance, why would a Clam battlemech EVER take an STD?
Because you buff it


Give IT insane structure, much like the Atlas gets. All 3 torso segments, a non-marginal value. Flat or scaling, I'm not preferential. I quite enjoy the thought of a STD Light making so much whine (because Potato's don't go for Legs)


Gauss wise, that is also worthless, as there's exactly one Spheroid mech that can mount Tri Gauss, the Muromets. And that's a terrible idea for multiple reasons


Make it less explosive, shorter cooldown, whatever's worth 3 tons and 1 slot

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 October 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[razenWing]

Mcgral18, on 29 October 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

...clam smalls are OUTRAGEOUSLY superior to the Spheroid stuff, if you didn't know.
Moreso that the Spheroid smalls are garbage, and should be buffed.


Now, are you suggesting that the isXL be made 16 slots large? 6CT plus five in each ST?
A ) That kills off stock builds, which is a no no
B ) that goes against PGI's no slot touching rule



And, why can't you make them identical to the cXL, and buff the STD?
Because even if fix the XL imbalance, why would a Clam battlemech EVER take an STD?
Because you buff it


Give IT insane structure, much like the Atlas gets. All 3 torso segments, a non-marginal value. Flat or scaling, I'm not preferential. I quite enjoy the thought of a STD Light making so much whine (because Potato's don't go for Legs)


Gauss wise, that is also worthless, as there's exactly one Spheroid mech that can mount Tri Gauss, the Muromets. And that's a terrible idea for multiple reasons


Make it less explosive, shorter cooldown, whatever's worth 3 tons and 1 slot

Well, it won't be 16 bigger. It will be 4 bigger. XL as of now already takes 3 on each ST. It's trading 4 slots for the ability to not get XL checked.

I suppose STD buff is another way to go, but let's be honest, if IS XL works just like Clan XL, NO ONE will use IS STD even if IS STD is buff to hell. Positive reinforcement never works as good as negative penalties.

[Sjorpha]

Making is xl bigger is both a bad idea and unlikely to happen. It's a bad idea because it would still leave it inferior to clan xl and it won't happen because it violates pgis design principles.

I would leave it fragile and give it a completely different bonus, let it comes with massive agility buffs. Then make standard give big structure bonuses to the torso sections. That would keep it different from clan xl and emphasize the choice between quick or tanky.

[Mcgral18]

IF you get +60 or +70 HP, along with the ability to use an AC20, and lose no performance on a ST loss, brawlers could still take one


30CT
20 ST, or more


But now you have to consider mechs taking an XL may no longer be able to fit Endo, because they lose those 4 slots, along with fewer heatsink slots.
Changing slots (to be bigger) is a no-no



But you could argue Ferro and Endo need to shrink

[AnTi90d]

Light Fusion Engines.

Standard 20 ton engine rating = XL 10 ton engine rating = LFE 15 ton engine rating..

..and they take up 2 slots in each torso.


http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

[Mcgral18]

AnTi90d, on 29 October 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Light Fusion Engines.

Standard 20 ton engine rating = XL 10 ton engine rating = LFE 15 ton engine rating..

..and they take up 2 slots in each torso.


http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

Does not fix engine imbalance, as STD remains worthless, and isXL no longer becomes worth it

[DrxAbstract]

Viva la STDs!

#STDsmatter

[AnTi90d]

Mcgral18, on 29 October 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Does not fix engine imbalance, as STD remains worthless, and isXL no longer becomes worth it

They could stick quirks onto the engines.

Give LFE no extra quirks.
Give XL side torso structure quirks.
Give standards some other type of quirk.. CT structure?.. acceleration?..

[Tarl Cabot]

Nor does the LFE fix IS Omnimechs, if they are ever introduced, PGI might as well make the cXL = isXL, have it die with the loss of one side torso.

And I am not sure of everyone's hard-on to giving STD engines additional buffs since it can only be destroyed by having to drill through the CT that has more armor and structural points than the side torso. Do forget for the heavier IS mechs with low engine cap, a player would actually be handicapping himself by using an isXL since the loss of one side torso would incur a heavier heat/movement penalty than the cXL.

A durable isXL would benefit the lower tiered mechs than anything, while providing a tad more speed for the upper ranks and removing that glaring tech difference off the board now than later.

Edit - there was one suggest concerning making isCase more useful by placing one in each side torso to partially protect the engine, thus preventing the destruction of the mech with the loss of one side torso but it would not be enough to save it with the loss of 2 side torsos.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 29 October 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[Agent1190]

Adding Crit slots to the engine is not feasible as it would compromise stock load outs of some mechs. If you are going to buff IS XLs, there has to be a trade off should you lose a side torso.

Some potential consequences if you lose a side torso (not all of them, maybe pick 1 or 2):
1. 33% loss to heat dissipation, speed and movement if a side torso is lost.
2. Loss of weapon quirks and module functions should a side torso be lost (your damaged engine can't handle the extra "equipment").
3. Nerf the heatsink dissipation in IS XLs, and buff the heat sinks in standard engines.
4. Chance that the corresponding leg could be destroyed (or damage to the internals on that leg). Negated by CASE maybe?
5. Chance to damage the internals on the CT. Negated by CASE maybe?

If you are going to change the game and make IS XL engines survive side-torso loss, there has to be a significant downside to losing that side torso - so much so that there would still be a reason to keeping standard engines in the game. Right now, the trade off is more firepower and speed for fragility and less usable critical slots in the torsos and the Mech in general (you can't use an AC20 in a side torso with an XL equipped).

The other option would be to add some creative license to the time line and introduce Light Fusion Engines for IS. You wouldn't have to create special MWO-only stats to make these balanced - they weigh between a STD and XL (in game, STD300 = 25 tons, XL300=15.5 tons, so an LFE300 would weigh 20.25 tons), they take up the same Crits as XLs, and they can sustain a side torso loss without penalty. Just price them right between the STD and XL version for CBills in game. Maybe make them available in multiples of 25 (175, 200, 225, etc).

On a Clan note - Clan Battle Mechs need to have harsher penalties if they lose part of their XL (maybe even-insta death, goodbye UAC KDK-3). Someone said it above and they are absolutely correct - there is no advantage to using a Clan-Standard Engine in a Clan Battlemech over an XL engine, and that is an oversight by PGI. Since the Clan Omnis don't have a choice, it'd be a little harsh to make all Clan XLs insta-death like IS XLs.

Edited by Agent1190, 29 October 2016 - 03:18 PM.

[Tahawus]

Since there are no actual crots assed against the engine slots in the side torsii, why not just asses a similar performance penalty on IS torso loss to that assesed pn clan, just increased to reflect to larger proportional loss to the engine.

[Johnny Z]

Interesting idea. Really not sure how it would work out but some kind of improvement with the engines balance would be great.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 29 October 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

...clam smalls are OUTRAGEOUSLY superior to the Spheroid stuff, if you didn't know.
Moreso that the Spheroid smalls are garbage, and should be buffed.


Now, are you suggesting that the isXL be made 16 slots large? 6CT plus five in each ST?
A ) That kills off stock builds, which is a no no
B ) that goes against PGI's no slot touching rule



And, why can't you make them identical to the cXL, and buff the STD?
Because even if fix the XL imbalance, why would a Clam battlemech EVER take an STD?
Because you buff it


Give IT insane structure, much like the Atlas gets. All 3 torso segments, a non-marginal value. Flat or scaling, I'm not preferential. I quite enjoy the thought of a STD Light making so much whine (because Potato's don't go for Legs)


Gauss wise, that is also worthless, as there's exactly one Spheroid mech that can mount Tri Gauss, the Muromets. And that's a terrible idea for multiple reasons


Make it less explosive, shorter cooldown, whatever's worth 3 tons and 1 slot

[razenWing]

Several things:

I don't think there are any IS XL default stock loadouts that might be affected by being fully utilized in slots. I may be wrong, but off of the top of my head, zero. (or if anyone want to make a list, that would be great)

Second, continuing to buff imbalance due to being XL checked is not going to help anyone. The problem isn't with STD or IS XL per se, the glaring obvious problem is the XL check. No amount of buff/debuff is going to fix that. (Well, I guess you technically could, but then you just create a new host of problem and potential imbalance with Clanners wondering why IS gets all the benefits)

Third, even with the abolition of XL check from my proposal, you can't compare IS mech with Clan mech and say that Clan XL is still better. The point is whether removing XL check by trading off 1 or 2 ST slot is worth it, and put IS mech in a more even situation than before. This is never about a direct balance between IS and Clan. Cause, at the end of the day, IS mechs are NOT supposed to run XL anyways.

The whole proposal by itself should fix and balance some of the dynamics factoring in the difference between Clan and IS weaponry. A lot of you guys are thinking straight in terms of just making 1 the same as the other. But you have to consider that because not everything else is the same (hardpoints, weapon, heat, durability, hit box, etc etc), you can't do a direct IS/Clan equivalency.

Hence, you can't remove remove XL check directly without negative feedback. Can you imagine an Atlas can now runs weapons with 15 additional tons for no reason by using IS XL, and/or as you guys are suggesting, run Std and get 50-60 additional HP? It would be freaking immortal. You are just making more problems by overbuffing IS.

---------------------------

To re-emphasize: will my proposal improve upon the current situation? I think it will. It will make offensive oriented mech more potent with a fair trade off in terms of space. I already envision a rewrite of meta from laser vomit GHP an WHM. Boar's Head and upcoming Bushwacker will make a lot more sense. IS will be a lot more competitive against Clan.

Cause arguable, the best mech of each class as of now belongs to Clan. Best Assault, KDK. Best Heavy, TBR. Best Med, SCR/HMN. And best Light, ACH. However, with the XL check removed, BH can match KDK with STK and BMR being thrown in the convo. TBR will have to share with GHR and WHM. I think hands down, med might be straight up better than Clan. Light will definitely be straight up better than Clan with Oxide getting a MASSIVE buff after the consecutive nerf.

Because of that, then you can balance the Clan side with long waited Clan quirks by giving them niche and personalities, rather than the bland potatoes right now. I say that's win/win and solve SO many problems at once.

[Snowbluff]

Mcgral18, on 29 October 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Give IT insane structure, much like the Atlas gets. All 3 torso segments, a non-marginal value. Flat or scaling, I'm not preferential. I quite enjoy the thought of a STD Light making so much whine (because Potato's don't go for Legs)

Well, for one.
1) You admit your idea is insane. Acceptance is the first step to recovery.
2) You point own counterargument, where everyone will be going for legs at all weight classes. :s

[Lykaon]

Why is it such a big deal to some people that a newer more expensive option is in may ways superior to the older baseline tech?

MWo is full of example of the no brainer "choice".

I have 14 extra slots after placing my loadout...do I take endo now and up my engine a bit or upgrade the medium lasers to pulse? Do I cap out the armor now?

YES! always YES.

Do I spend some C-bills and replace my mechs heatsinks with doubles?

YES! always again no BRAINER.

I have filled out my mech's loadout as desired and have endo steel and still have 14+ crits slots do I use Ferro fibrious now?

YEP! no brainer again 99% of the time.

At least with the choice between standard and XL engine the spheriod mech engineer needs to think about a few things.

Will it fit? +6 additional crit slots is not nothing and with 14 slot endo steel and ferro armor plus 3 crit slot DHS this adds up to making choices.

Choices that never impact clan mech designers as drasticly.

Clan XL + clan endo and clan ferro and an external DHS = 20 additional slots used compared to a spheroid mech using up 37 for the same kit.

And of course will this mech use a side torso AC20?
Is this mech a brawler likely to lose it's side torsos?


Why make this more complex than simply setting the Inner Sphere engine values to match the clan counterparts.

2 side torsos destroyed to kill the mech + speed penalties for one side torso destroyed. Perfect pairity and no hoops to jump through.

My main concern is if we ever see Inner Sphere Omnimechs and they have the same omnimech rule set as their clan counterparts many will have fixed suicide box engines (I.S. XL engines) and make them nonviable without absurd quirking.


If engine diversity is so strongly desired...

Standard engine grant structure buffs or improve heat dissapation

XL engine function for both sides as the clan engines do

LFE (if we see them) functionally like clan XL but with lesser penalties for a single destroyed side torso (less weight savings for the LFE so lesser penalties for engine damage)

[Y E O N N E]

I would rather that Inner Sphere XL engines provide a +20-25% buff to the side torso structure of any 'Mech you put them in. That has proven to be sufficient in the past when you also fix the weapons to be better than garbage. Also, I like the flavor difference of isXL going boom while cXL do not. It makes it interesting.

Also, Standard engines should provide +10-15% structure buffs to ST and +20% structure buffs to CT as well as provide something like +20 heat capacity. Standard engines require you to run so slow and so hot with meaningful firepower that you need to offset the loss in damage distribution abilities with sheer hit-points and the loss of cooling ability with some extra sinking.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 October 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[XtremWarrior]

AnTi90d, on 29 October 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

They could stick quirks onto the engines.

Strangely, this is the first time i see this idea, and i'd be all for it.

[Y E O N N E]

XtremWarrior, on 30 October 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Strangely, this is the first time i see this idea, and i'd be all for it.

Not the first time it's been posted around, but good to have more people like the idea as, IMO, making IS XL work like Clan XL is boring. Effective, probably, but totally and completely uninteresting. And the idea posted by the OP is just...way out of left field.