137 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

Put the Maus into major production!? Much like how the 262 was supposed to decimate the Allied Airforce? Or the STG44 was supposed to be dominate, or the Tiger was supposed to dominate?

Had the Maus been put into major production Germany woulda run outta materials building the things. Not to mention, its not like Germany woulda even had the fuel to power it, and it wouldnt even be able to get out of Berlin...never mind driving across France, Netherlands. I watched a video that said its fuel economy was like 12 gallons per quarter mile or something obscenely mind bogglingly bad.

If the Allieds met one, sure, it would kill w/e is immediately around it, but the Allies woulda just backed up, and either called in the mother of all arty strikes or called up 8th AF and bombed it into the 8th wonder of the world, calling it "Maus Factory Crater"....

When I say decimate, I mean when actually backed up And IIRC they had meant to actually put the poor thing into mass production, but every time they had a factory setup to churn them out, they were unlucky and got bombed by the Allies. I will admit that the Maus main enemy would have been bridges though. Because there is no way in hell that the small bridges in Europe could have held a Maus, since a lot of the time Pz IV's and Tigers were too heavy for them. The 262 was just a case of it just being "too late" to help them, like most of their advanced tech during the war.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Head to head combat is not the role of a light.

Where did I ever say lights need to be good at head to head combat, I originally said they need to have more firepower/armor to be more of a factor in this current game. Nowhere did I say that means they should be good at head to head combat nor does it imply that, it just means as a flanker, they are average often not able to contribute to the match until it is already lopsided at which time they are able to add to the roll.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

It will always be about some sort of firepower, that is why we come to play this game, not to run off and go sit on a cap the whole match, not to scout for the team the whole match, but to shoot stuff. Anyone who thinks that roles that don't involve some sort of combat are going to be popular and generally more viable outside of some bogus mechanic or being a healer is deluding themselves.

LOL, and thats where you have me all wrong. Thinking THATS the kind of objective game play am even talking about. NAW LOL. If it was up to me "cap circles" would ******* die in a fire.

NAW, the kinds of objectives im talking about are more "Point of Influence" type things. Where your team is fighting for control of said base. Sure, there would be some "capping", but it wouldnt be a tiny little cap circle, rather a very large point of influence that engulfs the whole base. So each side is fighting for control of the base, the battlefield is THE BASE, not "the one lone ammo dump on the corner". The light would then use his speed, agility, sneakiness, and cunning to put what little fire power he does have to big effect.

Games would need to get away from the current FW designed maps, which are essentially tunnels, 2 gates, followed by corridors, valleys, tunnels and narrow passages with which to stuff large units through. NAW.....Think Planetside 2 sized maps, and think of PLanetside 2 way back when it had NO ******* LATTICE system and NO ******* CONT locking.....the world was very open, the approaches and options were numerous and nearly endless.....ok, maybe not that large, but certainly that design...large, open, not many chokepoints, can come from anywhere....yeah...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

There is PLENTY of combat for a light mech, but the current combat doesnt last long enough, nor is there enough objectives to get people to spread out to allow for a proper opening for lights to shine.

I don't think you get the problem there, it all HINGES on the enemy doing something stupid, which is the reason why lights are not good in comp play, because coordinated teams are able to prevent themselves from doing exactly that (most of the time, some of the times it does happen). They are not a unit that can create opportunities, and that is the problem.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Sure, there would be some "capping", but it wouldnt be a tiny little cap circle, rather a very large point of influence that engulfs the whole base. So each side is fighting for control of the base, the battlefield is THE BASE, not "the one lone ammo dump on the corner". The light would then use his speed, agility, sneakiness, and cunning to put what little fire power he does have to big effect.

That is still centered around combat, if you think in coordinated environments that somehow the speed makes up for the lack of firepower when talking about a mostly static engagement over a center point, sorry, but that is naive.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 05:08 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Where did I ever say lights need to be good at head to head combat, I originally said they need to have more firepower/armor to be more of a factor in this current game. Nowhere did I say that means they should be good at head to head combat nor does it imply that, it just means as a flanker, they are average often not able to contribute to the match until it is already lopsided at which time they are able to add to the roll.

YUP, I found that same **** to be true of WoT. See, I played the Easy 8 Sherman as my main tank for a long time, I have a lil over 1000 games in it, and yup, I found that same thing to be true.

It all boiled down to how the maps were laid out and how the only thing to do was kill the other tanks. So, not until late game, was I ever able to really do anything in the E8...

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

I don't think you get the problem there, it all HINGES on the enemy doing something stupid, which is the reason why lights are not good in comp play, because coordinated teams are able to prevent themselves from doing exactly that (most of the time, some of the times it does happen). They are not a unit that can create opportunities, and that is the problem.


That is still centered around combat, if you think in coordinated environments that somehow the speed makes up for the lack of firepower when talking about a mostly static engagement over a center point, sorry, but that is naive.

Then maybe, ultimately, people are getting the lights for the wrong reasons. You all grab a butter knife, but are displeased and call it UP when you want to try to cut steak with it and find out it doesnt work for ****.

Again, the real problem might reside with the playerbase and their obsession with their Epeens, Egos and putting up big numbers. Lights, sorry to say, are not meant for that role. They are meant for the more mundane tasks, the guys who fly ECM, AMS, support their allies, and are willing to sacrifice the big personal glory for the betterment of the team. The guys who NARC, TAG and are willing to wait until their heavies are involved before going in and finishing off the enemy.

Its not unlike Armored Warfare and the "AFV" drivers calling the MBTs OP when their 30mm AC doesnt do a ******* thing to 600mm of composite heavy front armor, and are shocked when thier little go kart, isnt that great at combat. Its like sorry, but its not. Its MEANT as a SUPPORT vehicle. I know, I know, players these days DONT KNOW what support is. Its why Pugging and the entire PVP scene is in such a cluster **** of a state. EVERYONE wants the kill and the big numbers, but no one is willing to give way. EVERYONE wants to be the leader, everyone wants every vehicle to be equally viable in all respects....

Sorry, its not the way it works. Lights: Support units, AMS< NARC, TAG, Spotting with superior radar, radar jamming. ONLY way that change sis if PGI uber buffs them so they are amazing at combat. I mean, really, what exactly is it that light pilots are expecting their light mech to do be able to do in a combat role?

You want the Combat Light? Thats the Medium mech.....lil' more armor, lil' more firepower, but a lotta bit slower generally.

Then we have the Heavy, the primary, front line combat mech. He leads, he defends, he flanks, he supports, the general purpose, jack of all trades class.

Then the Assault, hes the bastion of defense, hes not fast, hes easier to see, he packs the guns he packs the armor...his role is take and dish hits, hold or take territory. Its all in the class purposes....why do people want every class to do everything!?

YEah, a healer is more boring, duh, he heals, he supports, he gives up his ability to kill for the ability to help his group to kill. The Wizard, he kills and quickly, but he gives up the armor, health and defenses in order to do so.

THe TANK, he generally is slow, no range, generally pretty poor DPS, but overall has the best defenses of the classes.

Then the DPS, the ranger,the scout, usually a melee version of the wizard...but weak in combat, more like the light mech....

seriously....all the problems stem from players not willing to give up anything. We all want the Uber Assault Scout Combat Support Healer DPS Class...like, umm, no......there in really lies the problem...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 October 2016 - 05:25 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

God, the Maus was such an era specific design. If it had been put into major production, like they had wanted, DURING WWII, it would have decimated the Allies. But fast forward to the 60's, and it would have been worthless because of advancements in planes and rocketry. Not even touching up on the hilarity known as the Ratte.

Nope, P-51D says "hi."

Edited by Saint Scarlett Johan, 27 October 2016 - 05:23 PM.

[RestosIII]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 27 October 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

Nope, P-51D says "hi."

IIRC they had also considered sticking 2 AA 88mm guns on an open-top turret for certain models, so that would have been an interesting fight.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

IIRC they had also considered sticking 2 AA 88mm guns on an open-top turret for certain models, so that would have been an interesting fight.

Are you really over here defending the impracticality of the Maus? LOL.

EVEN if Germany HAD started building them, they woulda built like 10 all war. They only built 1300 Tiger Is, and like 300 Tiger IIs. Now we wanna build a tank that has a 128mm vs 88mm gun, THEN packs a 75mm Coaxial.....really, I think the bane of the MAUS woulda been just like the Ferdinand, no anti-infantry support.

THAt tank is and was an utterly useless abomination, spawned up by a desperate mad man who was hopelessly out of touch with any kind of reality, thinking that somehow all his "wunderwaffe" or w/e they called them, was going to win the war.

While the Allies were busy fighting a war, 50,000 Shermans, 50,000 T-34s, many thousands of trucks for transport. Germany is over here building single 135 ton tanks, or 68 JagdTigers.....really lol...

[RestosIII]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

Are you really over here defending the impracticality of the Maus? LOL.

EVEN if Germany HAD started building them, they woulda built like 10 all war. They only built 1300 Tiger Is, and like 300 Tiger IIs. Now we wanna build a tank that has a 128mm vs 88mm gun, THEN packs a 75mm Coaxial.....really, I think the bane of the MAUS woulda been just like the Ferdinand, no anti-infantry support.

THAt tank is and was an utterly useless abomination, spawned up by a desperate mad man who was hopelessly out of touch with any kind of reality, thinking that somehow all his "wunderwaffe" or w/e they called them, was going to win the war.

While the Allies were busy fighting a war, 50,000 Shermans, 50,000 T-34s, many thousands of trucks for transport. Germany is over here building single 135 ton tanks, or 68 JagdTigers.....really lol...

Pssst. 150mm gun, not 128mm. You-know-who said the 128mm was too smaller compared to the rest of the tank. And as I said earlier, with SUPPORT it would have been insane. Oh, and those Shermans and T-34's? fireboxes that were poorly put together in most cases. I will admit I am heavily biased because I love German military vehicles, but it would have done its job of bringing back WWI style tank tactics to an extent if it had actually been produced.

[Lyoto Machida]

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

God, the Maus was such an era specific design. If it had been put into major production, like they had wanted, DURING WWII, it would have decimated the Allies. But fast forward to the 60's, and it would have been worthless because of advancements in planes and rocketry. Not even touching up on the hilarity known as the Ratte.


Oh, right, Battletech. Yeah, I sadly know nothing about Battletech armored vehicles, and not much about the air forces, so I have nothing of real value to say in that regard.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 27 October 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

Nope, P-51D says "hi."

I'm not sure how citing the P-51D refutes his post...the US stopped using them in combat during the Korean War in the mid 1950s.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 October 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

I'm not sure how citing the P-51D refutes his post...the US stopped using them in combat during the Korean War in the mid 1950s.

Germany stopped using the Maus as soon as it was built sooo...

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Pssst. 150mm gun, not 128mm. You-know-who said the 128mm was too smaller compared to the rest of the tank. And as I said earlier, with SUPPORT it would have been insane. Oh, and those Shermans and T-34's? fireboxes that were poorly put together in most cases. I will admit I am heavily biased because I love German military vehicles, but it would have done its job of bringing back WWI style tank tactics to an extent if it had actually been produced.

MAUS is a joke. Supported, it mighta gotten to the border of Berlin, then would be out of fuel. Then umm, yeah, its a bunker. Germany was having serious fuel shortages by that time. Fuel shortages stuffed the Battle of the Bulge, along with Allied reinforcements. MAUS wouldnt have done anything but wasted a ton of resources. Defending the Maus sounds even more goofy then the people who always say how the Tiger would still be a viable tank vs an Abrams...

As for 150mm, even slower RoF, even fewer rounds in the tank, even bigger rounds to explode when P47s dropped bombs on it's head, or the roof. If they got it out of Berlin, or where ever the factory was, and into a battle. it wouldnt even fit down GERMAN streets, never mind in France, Belgium, across any rivers, over any Marsh. Just mine the roads, since thats all it could do. Or have your soldiers piss on all the dirt roads, forcing it to go only on hard roads...and that seriously limits it's combat effectiveness....

THe ways the Maus is useless out number's its weight in pounds.....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 October 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 October 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

I'm not sure how citing the P-51D refutes his post...the US stopped using them in combat during the Korean War in the mid 1950s.

Biggest threat to a tank is a plane. Had Germany made the Maus in any numbers it would have been bomb bait like all the other panzers.

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

IIRC they had also considered sticking 2 AA 88mm guns on an open-top turret for certain models, so that would have been an interesting fight.

The flak 88 is a marginal threat to low fast fighters. Smaller cannons like the 20mm would've have been more dangerous.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

Then maybe, ultimately, people are getting the lights for the wrong reasons.

Or maybe the concept of lights in regards to TT isn't well suited to an FPS considering we are talking about going from a turn-based strategy game to an FPS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 05:56 PM.

[Flak Kannon]

This degenerated quickly....

Lights do not need more agility as a whole.

Some Bigs do.

And in the Tier 1 solo que, I do quite well offensively in my lights. Can they stand a little bump of armament, maybe, but not much. A bad pilot will make a good mech play poor, and a great pilot makes a ordinary mech shine.

Put me in my light, and nothing short of a Streak Crow or Streak Maddog scares me. Nothing.

But I believe they best 'not' SLOW down the agility of assaults or there will be a seismic shift in the que percentages towards lights, and light hunters...and we don't want that as a whole.

Especially now that Energy Draw is off the table...


Enjoi

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Or maybe the concept of lights in regards to TT isn't well suited to an FPS considering we are talking about going from a turn-based strategy game to an FPS.

Honestly, ive pretty much gathered that Battletech on the whole doesnt translate well into a FPS style game.

Or people are just not willing to accept the mechanics that would be in place to translate it properly.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 October 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[dario03]

Flak Kannon, on 27 October 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

This degenerated quickly....

Lights do not need more agility as a whole.

Some Bigs do.

And in the Tier 1 solo que, I do quite well offensively in my lights. Can they stand a little bump of armament, maybe, but not much. A bad pilot will make a good mech play poor, and a great pilot makes a ordinary mech shine.

Put me in my light, and nothing short of a Streak Crow or Streak Maddog scares me. Nothing.

But I believe they best 'not' SLOW down the agility of assaults or there will be a seismic shift in the que percentages towards lights, and light hunters...and we don't want that as a whole.

Especially now that Energy Draw is off the table...


Enjoi

I think you meant to say

Lights as a whole need agility buffs.

Some bigs do too, but more bigs need to lose some.

And in the Tier 1 solo que, I do quite well offensively in my heavies and assaults. Can they stand a little nerf to quirks, maybe, but depends on which one we're talking about.

Put me in my heavy or assault and nothing short of multiple mechs or a KDK3 scares me. Nothing.

But I believe they best SLOW down the agility of heavies and assaults and/or buff the lights quirks so there will be a seismic shift in the que percentages towards lights...and we want that so that we could actually have a almost equal distribution of the classes.

Edited by dario03, 27 October 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Guys... I would appreciate it if you took the ww2 discussion elsewhere and stop derailing the thread.