11 replies to this topic

[Huron Fal]

OBJECTIVES:

1. Increase time to kill (TTK). This was, in my opinion, the primary motivation behind adding ghost heat / Energy draw in the first place.

2. Reduce the effectiveness of boating weapons. My proposed changes will make mixed loadouts more viable. Boats will still retain their efficiency (same type weapons, cooldown, range, modules, etc) at the cost of a bit less damage, and I believe this tradeoff allows for a more balanced game.

3. Make brawling more viable. The effectiveness of laser/ballistic boats and sniper builds have severely limited most mechs' ability to brawl. My changes will make brawling more viable, which will inevitably add more build diversity.

4. Add more variety to the game. Along with more build variety, I hope to see an emergence of new tactics. With brawling made more viable, I hope to see more maneuvering around the map, rather than trading sniper fire around a central point. Flanking and similar tactics should be much more relevant.


Proposal 1: Damage Reduction based on weapon type (PLEASE READ ALL PROPOSALS)


For each firing group¹ with two same-type weapons², reduce the damage of the same-type weapons by a base 12%³. If a firing group exceeds two same-type weapons, an extra 2% damage penalty will be incurred for each additional same-type weapon³. Single-fired weapons are unaffected.<sup>4


1</sup>Firing group' refers to any group of weapons fired simultaneously, or one trigger pull. Any weapons fired within less than .5 seconds of one another, outside of the initial firing group, will incur the damage penalty (same "check" as ghost heat)

²Weapons will be split into four types; Energy, Ballistic, Missile, and Kinetic (see Proposal 3). If you fire two or more of the same type of weapon in a single firing group, you will incur a damage penalty. If such a penalty is incurred by a particular weapon type, it will not affect damage dealt by other weapon types (i.e Energy penalties will not affect Ballistic damage.)

³Most close-ranged weapons are exempt from all damage penalties (see Proposal 4)

⁴Chainfired weapons, or weapons which are fired at least .5 seconds after another firing group are not penalized. Additionally, if a firing group only contains 1 instance of a particular weapon type, that weapon will not be penalized. This is essentially a 12% damage boost to chainfired weapons and singular weapons in mixed builds. (See the mixed builds example for more on this.)


Proposal 2: Remove Ghost Heat


Ghost heat was designed to reduce the effectiveness of certain builds and to increase TTK. My system effectively covers both aspects and therefore, ghost heat is no longer needed.


Proposal 3: Gauss and PPCs are moved into their own weapon type: "Kinetic" (No longer Ballistic / Energy)


In order to bring this playstyle in line with the other "typical" loadouts, these weapons had to be moved into their own category to reduce their effectiveness when paired together (See PPFLD Example below to see the effects of the new scaling).


Proposal 4: Most close range weapons are exempt from damage penalty

These weapon systems are only effective up close, and in the current meta its often hard to get close enough without dying. SRMs, LBX, Machine Guns, and Flamers will not receive a damage penalty, in order to make brawling more viable and hopefully lead to a more diverse build pool.

Small Lasers (regular and pulse) are not included as they already have very efficient heat/damage ratios and I believe to exclude them from the damage penalty would result in too much small laser boating.


EXAMPLE 1: PPFLD

Spoiler

(Keep in mind the below weapons are now all in the same group and therefore receive harsher damage penalties when used together)

Dual Guass + PPC = (15 + 15 + 10) = 40 Damage
With new scaling = (40)(.88)(.98) = 34.496 Damage

Double Guass + Double PPC = (15 + 15 + 10 + 10) = 50 Damage
With new scaling = (50)(.88)(.96) = 42.24 Damage

The overall strength of PPFLD is still maintained, albeit a bit reduced.

EXAMPLE 2: Energy Boats

Spoiler

IS Laser Vomit: 3 LPL + 4 Med Las = (11+11+11+5+5+5+5) = 48 Damage
With new scaling = (48)(.88)(.90) = 38.016 Damage

IS 4 Large Pulse (viable without ghost heat) = (11+11+11+11) = 44 Damage
With new scaling = (44)(.88)(.96) = 37.1712 Damage

Clan Laser Vomit: 2 CLPL + 5 Med Las = (13+13+7+7+7+7+7) = 61 Damage
With new scaling = (61)(.88)(.90) = 48.312 Damage

Clan 4 Large Pulse (viable without ghost heat) = (13+13+13+13) = 52 Damage
With new scaling = (52)(.88)(.94)= 43.9296 Damage


Notice that smaller amounts of larger weapons retain more damage than the "meta" boating counterparts, this keeps bigger energy-based mechs viable as they have the tonnage to load more larger weapons (remember no more ghost heat!)

EXAMPLE 3: Ballistic Boats

Spoiler

Kodiak KD3: 4 UAC 10s: (10+10+10+10) = 40 Damage
With new scaling= (40)(.88)(.96)= 33.792 Damage

Kodiak KD3: 4 LBX 10s: (10+10+10+10) = 40 Damage
With new scaling= (40 Damage)
(Lbx are excluded from penalties, just wanted to show the comparison between current meta and the new scaled LBX)

Mauler 5 AC5s: (5+5+5+5+5) = 25 Damage
With new scaling= (25)(.88)(.94) = 20.68 Damage

Mauler 2 AC10s 1 AC5s: (10+10+5) = 25 Damage
With new scaling= (25)(.88)(.98) = 21.56 Damage

EXAMPLE 4: Missile Boats

Spoiler

Stalker 5 x LRM10: (10+10+10+10+10) = 50 Damage
With new scaling: (50)(.88)(.94) = 41.36 Damage

Catapult 6 SRM 6: (12.9+12.9+12.9+12.9+12.9+12.9) = 77.4 Damage
With new scaling: 77.4 Damage (Compare to clan laser vomit at 48.312)

EXAMPLE 5: Mixed Damage Builds

Spoiler

Up until this point we have seen basically just a flat damage decrease to almost every weapon group, but here we will see the true difference between mixed and boated builds under the new system.

1 AC20, 2 SRM6, 2 Large Pulse Lasers: (20+12.9+12.9+11+11) = 67.8 Damage
With New Scaling = (20)+(25.8)+(22 x .88) = 65.16 (3.9% Reduction)

Compare this with the Clan Laser Vomit:

Clan Laser Vomit: 2 CLPL + 5 Med Las = (13+13+7+7+7+7+7) = 61 Damage
With new scaling = (61)(.88)(.90) = 48.312 Damage (20.98% Reduction)

Mixing builds pays huge returns, and a higher emphasis is placed on brawling as a result, thereby adding more diversity to the game.

Please leave any thoughts or feedback in the comment section. I am more than happy to answer questions or provide clarity on anything in this article. Additionally, if you spot a typo, bad math, or a potential exploit under my proposed system, please let me know.

-Huron

Changelog:

11/2: Updated damage formulae for more clarity
11/3: Added machineguns and flamers to "excluded" weapons.

Edited by Huron Fal, 03 November 2016 - 03:13 PM.

[Cox Devalis]

I didn't think about all your proposals but I guess I found a new meta here.
3 clan LPL have no ghost heat penalty anymore and its damage is 39*0.9*0.98=34.35
This particular example is not about TTK increase as it seems to me. How many times I can shoot 3xLPL before shutdown at my EBJ? May be 5? Much better than current 3 with ghost heat.

[Cypherdrene]

I dont think the damage reducction formula should be so detached from Heat Gen/Ghost Heat that you can shoot 3LPL's 5 times instead of 3. However, firing a 4th time would still be very rewarding since you'd be delivering a full blast worth of damage without shutting down and all within roughly the same time frame.

The damage reduction/no ghost heat formula is far more linear and makes a lot of sense:
A) Chain fire away all your weapons and deal full-continious damage (brawler)
Alpha strike all day for focused damage (albeit reduced. poke and poptart)
C) Fire 2-weapon groups at a time for a mixed playstyle.

This alone creates more variety, 3-weapon-type combos on more mechs and no single style would be OP.

I can already see this mechanic bringin back some of those "useless mechs" with not a lot of hardpoints or low mounted weaponry. Meta wouldn't be Clan dominated anymore.

[Huron Fal]

Cox Devalis, on 31 October 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

I didn't think about all your proposals but I guess I found a new meta here.
3 clan LPL have no ghost heat penalty anymore and its damage is 39*0.9*0.98=34.35
This particular example is not about TTK increase as it seems to me. How many times I can shoot 3xLPL before shutdown at my EBJ? May be 5? Much better than current 3 with ghost heat.

I have edited the formula to be easier to read, and adjusted my damage calculations to reflect the simplified formula. The new formula is 39(.88)(.98)=33.6336 which is not a very impressive alpha compared to mixed alternatives, though you do get the benefit of shared cooldown/range/etc from boating the same weapon type. I say go for it!

Cypherdrene, on 01 November 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

I dont think the damage reducction formula should be so detached from Heat Gen/Ghost Heat that you can shoot 3LPL's 5 times instead of 3. However, firing a 4th time would still be very rewarding since you'd be delivering a full blast worth of damage without shutting down and all within roughly the same time frame.

The damage reduction/no ghost heat formula is far more linear and makes a lot of sense:
A) Chain fire away all your weapons and deal full-continious damage (brawler)
Alpha strike all day for focused damage (albeit reduced. poke and poptart)
C) Fire 2-weapon groups at a time for a mixed playstyle.

This alone creates more variety, 3-weapon-type combos on more mechs and no single style would be OP.

I can already see this mechanic bringin back some of those "useless mechs" with not a lot of hardpoints or low mounted weaponry. Meta wouldn't be Clan dominated anymore.

Hi there and first of all thank you for your feedback. I did not really understand what you meant when you said "should not be so detached", can you clarify? And obviously these % dmg reductions were just something arbitrary and could be tweaked for balance as needed.

Edited by Huron Fal, 01 November 2016 - 08:39 PM.

[Taxxian]

You are putting Weapons into groups and calculate penalties according to the pure number of weapons regardless of their effectiveness. That is pretty much the same mistake GhostHeat makes...

Do we need to nerf a 5 ISMediumLaser build?
Do we need to nerf a 6 ClanSmallLaser build?
Do we need to nerf a 4 MachineGun build?

You propose to nerf all of them...

This 6 PPC Banshee (http://mwo.smurfy-ne...05db6b8b1e88419) can Alpha without shutting down easily:
That makes 10*6-(1-0.12-0.8) = 48 Pinpoint Damage at 600m
Same goes for the 6 ERPPC DireWolf...

The only Mechs that are unaffected are Lights and Mediums with small amounts of large weapons, Assault Mechs are nerfed the most, yet the Kodiak is the only one really deserving it...

We all want to have an easy solution, but sometimes there simply is none...

[Cypherdrene]

Huron Fal, on 01 November 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Hi there and first of all thank you for your feedback. I did not really understand what you meant when you said "should not be so detached", can you clarify? And obviously these % dmg reductions were just something arbitrary and could be tweaked for balance as needed.

It was a reply to Cox Devalis. I simply wanted to point out that 5 Alpha x3 cLPL shots (from 3) without shutdown is OP as hell. Encouraging an already long range dominated game. 4 shots, not so much; damage falloff would encourage to play at optimal ranges of 400-800m.

Edited by Cypherdrene, 02 November 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Gattsus]

I hate how convoluted ED is now, or anything that resembles a heat penalty based on damage. I mean convoluted = doing 0.75, 0.5,0 calculations on the fly.

Seems easier and more reasonable to assign movement/accuracy penalties at certain thresholds of heat.

Edited by Gattsus, 02 November 2016 - 07:27 PM.

[Giltanas]

Huron Fal:

1. There is always harder to remove system you are balancing years and replace it with new one than modify current one.
2. You live with wrong asumption that Brawl is weak. Brawling is much stronger than long range combat. But it need team to work and skilled player to execute. Long range is much more noob friendly.
3. Also not always grouping guns is bad. For example single machine gun will propably do nothing. Similar it will be with flamers.
4. If I would be forced to come up with one weapon I feel too strong in the game its SRM. And your system makes it even stronger...

You (Sure same aplies to me) need much more input data to be able to design all new system. As for me. I thing that MWO is still more Call of Duty than Battletech game. TTK needs to be increased maybe 5 times to change it to strong strategy game, what is in its original form.

[Huron Fal]

Cypherdrene, on 02 November 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

It was a reply to Cox Devalis. I simply wanted to point out that 5 Alpha x3 cLPL shots (from 3) without shutdown is OP as hell. Encouraging an already long range dominated game. 4 shots, not so much; damage falloff would encourage to play at optimal ranges of 400-800m.

Mechs already boat same or similar firepower by spliting one of the large lasers into multiple medium lasers, and a 3 CLPL build would be completely outclassed by a more mixed build.

Edited by Huron Fal, 03 November 2016 - 03:08 PM.

[Huron Fal]

Giltanas, on 02 November 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

Huron Fal:

1. There is always harder to remove system you are balancing years and replace it with new one than modify current one.
2. You live with wrong asumption that Brawl is weak. Brawling is much stronger than long range combat. But it need team to work and skilled player to execute. Long range is much more noob friendly.
3. Also not always grouping guns is bad. For example single machine gun will propably do nothing. Similar it will be with flamers.
4. If I would be forced to come up with one weapon I feel too strong in the game its SRM. And your system makes it even stronger...

You (Sure same aplies to me) need much more input data to be able to design all new system. As for me. I thing that MWO is still more Call of Duty than Battletech game. TTK needs to be increased maybe 5 times to change it to strong strategy game, what is in its original form.

This only "removes" ghost heat, which was going to be removed anyhow, and replaced with something that was truly new. I just want to soft-cap damage for certain builds, hardly revolutionary.

I think you have a point about machine guns and flamers, but I have to "agree to disagree" with you about brawling. Yes a brawling optimized build will usually sack a sniper *in a brawl environment* but to actually get in range, position well, coordinate with your team, etc etc is very hard in quick plays (I am balancing around quick play as it is the most common game mode).

As for SRMs, they do a lot of damage but even at point blank range that damage is spread considerably. A single gauss rifle will likely do more damage to a single component (i.e center torso) than an entire alpha from a splatcat. So again, agree to disagree. Besides which, SRMs were intended to be "stronger" on purpose, in order to get people to build more close-range builds.

Edited by Huron Fal, 03 November 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Huron Fal]

Taxxian, on 02 November 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

You are putting Weapons into groups and calculate penalties according to the pure number of weapons regardless of their effectiveness. That is pretty much the same mistake GhostHeat makes...

Do we need to nerf a 5 ISMediumLaser build?
Do we need to nerf a 6 ClanSmallLaser build?
Do we need to nerf a 4 MachineGun build?

You propose to nerf all of them...

This 6 PPC Banshee (http://mwo.smurfy-ne...05db6b8b1e88419) can Alpha without shutting down easily:
That makes 10*6-(1-0.12-0.8) = 48 Pinpoint Damage at 600m
Same goes for the 6 ERPPC DireWolf...

The only Mechs that are unaffected are Lights and Mediums with small amounts of large weapons, Assault Mechs are nerfed the most, yet the Kodiak is the only one really deserving it...

We all want to have an easy solution, but sometimes there simply is none...

There are mechs that already do 50 pinpoint alpha with dualgauss+dual ppc with MUCH higher cooling efficiency so I fail to see your point. If anything, Assaults are MORE viable because (depending on the variant of course) they can equip multiple weapon systems at the same time and enjoy higher overall damage due to the way the "single weapon" penalty exclusion works.

To further answer your question, the idea was to pretty much soft cap ranged damage at 12% regardless of loadout and also further penalize boats beyond that. So simply put, yes, those builds do need to be nerfed because one of the things PGI is trying to accomplish with ED/Ghost Heat, Etc. is to increase TTK for *all mechs* whereas I want to do it for all but close ranged mechs. Based on feedback from the comments I have included machineguns and flamers to the excluded list.

PS: Kodiak absolutely still needs a nerf, my design is in no way directed at solving the problem with kodiaks

Edited by Huron Fal, 03 November 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Huron Fal]

Gattsus, on 02 November 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

I hate how convoluted ED is now, or anything that resembles a heat penalty based on damage. I mean convoluted = doing 0.75, 0.5,0 calculations on the fly.

Seems easier and more reasonable to assign movement/accuracy penalties at certain thresholds of heat.

I definitely understand where you are coming from, but a heat penalty system like from tabletop would be convoluted as well. My hope is that if some version of my system got implemented that there would be a damage calculator UI as well that would let you know what your alpha damage would be given the current loadout (kinda like the warning that we have now that tells you that youll get ghost heat, but maybe a bit more detailed)