21 replies to this topic

[Ignatz22]

Ok, so perhaps you've noticed at the beginning of most matches wherein someone with a mic is in-match they'll ask if there are any LRMS. Usually there's one, so the next comment is to please lock targets. Then the ugliness starts...
"Get your own locks; I have to expose myself to get a target lock!", followed by the usual comments about LRM pilots being cowards/lazy/etc.
Let me point out that most of you HATE BEING HIT by LRMS, so why wouldn't you want the same for the opposition? If that isn't enough, you do realize the overall damage LRMs can cause, making pinpoint hits more effective? Take-downs faster?
Have you CONSIDERED that locking the mech attacking you offers your team the information as to who's in trouble, who is being attacked and where the enemy is? Have you ever been jumped by three mechs because the area behind you was scouted but the direction and number of incoming mechs wasn't transmitted??

No?
Ok, go ahead and keep the information to yourself. Maybe sooner or later you'll see that maximizing all teammates' firepower means more wins, and giving the most information allows for better coordination and responses to assaults.
Best of luck.

[mailin]

Not locking targets is a mistake either made by new players or by players who don't want to play a team game. New players can be excused, but experienced players who don't lock should go play something else. The simple fact is, if you're an experienced driver who doesn't lock their current target, I'd rather not have you on my team. I will be more than happy with a new player who is willing to learn.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Ignatz22, on 31 October 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Ok, so perhaps you've noticed at the beginning of most matches wherein someone with a mic is in-match they'll ask if there are any LRMS. Usually there's one, so the next comment is to please lock targets. Then the ugliness starts...
"Get your own locks; I have to expose myself to get a target lock!", followed by the usual comments about LRM pilots being cowards/lazy/etc.
Let me point out that most of you HATE BEING HIT by LRMS, so why wouldn't you want the same for the opposition? If that isn't enough, you do realize the overall damage LRMs can cause, making pinpoint hits more effective? Take-downs faster?
Have you CONSIDERED that locking the mech attacking you offers your team the information as to who's in trouble, who is being attacked and where the enemy is? Have you ever been jumped by three mechs because the area behind you was scouted but the direction and number of incoming mechs wasn't transmitted??

No?
Ok, go ahead and keep the information to yourself. Maybe sooner or later you'll see that maximizing all teammates' firepower means more wins, and giving the most information allows for better coordination and responses to assaults.
Best of luck.

with all due respect, i usually do not hold locks for lurmer.
The reason is that i get simply destroyed before captain lurm[Redacted] can lob his volly of lurmz into the next best cover from 950 meter away.

Get your own locks, or simply dismount artemis since most of them would like to play games where they literally have no visual on any enemy mech at all.

Edited by draiocht, 31 October 2016 - 11:28 PM.
inappropriate language

[B0oN]

Ignatz22, on 31 October 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Ok, so perhaps you've noticed at the beginning of most matches wherein someone with a mic is in-match they'll ask if there are any LRMS. Usually there's one, so the next comment is to please lock targets. Then the ugliness starts...
"Get your own locks; I have to expose myself to get a target lock!", followed by the usual comments about LRM pilots being cowards/lazy/etc.
Let me point out that most of you HATE BEING HIT by LRMS, so why wouldn't you want the same for the opposition? If that isn't enough, you do realize the overall damage LRMs can cause, making pinpoint hits more effective? Take-downs faster?
Have you CONSIDERED that locking the mech attacking you offers your team the information as to who's in trouble, who is being attacked and where the enemy is? Have you ever been jumped by three mechs because the area behind you was scouted but the direction and number of incoming mechs wasn't transmitted??

No?
Ok, go ahead and keep the information to yourself. Maybe sooner or later you'll see that maximizing all teammates' firepower means more wins, and giving the most information allows for better coordination and responses to assaults.
Best of luck.

Hey, congratulations !
You started to think team-wide, now keep at it !

And yes, I will still tell LRM carriers to get their own locks, just to make them move their asses AND share their armour as they should ... as compensation they get ALL the locks I can ever lock and hold with either my own eyes or my UAV .

[Tarl Cabot]

Because when someone notes they need locks, they are in a LRM assault with no backup weapons, and tend to sit back at around 800-900m instead of being closer to the fight sharing their armor. Just as bad are the heavies with nothing but LRMs and no backup weapons. And if they have energy points, no tag to pierce through ECM veil nor the ability to deadfire their LRMS, pointing to the ground where they want LRMS to go, in an Area of Denial effect.

Edit, now if you noted you have some LRMS+ backup weapons and will be in the thick of it, you may not receive such a negative reception.

But I have seen players who do not hit the R key, which also means they are short changing themselves by NOT knowing which part of a mech is about to pop then at the end their earnings. I may not hit R on a particular mech if they are all clustered together cause those red boxes are fraking thick and makes it difficult to see who you are hitting, especially if a friendly is in the thick of it.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 31 October 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Any good pilot will lock their target if possible.
That is very very different than asking a team mate to face tank a target so you stand in the back like a 2 button hero.

[kyfire]

Screw the lurmers, I get target lock for my benefit.

Seriously, locking targets helps the whole team not just the lurmerrs. I get locks so I know what a mech is, what weapons he has, how far away he is and last but not least, to see how much damage he has.

BTW, I do NOT run a LRMboat!

[Ignatz22]

B0oN, on 31 October 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

Hey, congratulations !
You started to think team-wide, now keep at it !

And yes, I will still tell LRM carriers to get their own locks, just to make them move their asses AND share their armour as they should ... as compensation they get ALL the locks I can ever lock and hold with either my own eyes or my UAV .

I get your point, and I don't run LRM "boats". I do put an LRM on some of my mediums to give me some ranged damage, but I try to get my own locks. I hold my locks, and appreciate the folks who don't or can't hold them.
My point is that the locks aren't just for LRM boats, but for information. As a medium, I run to the "Need Assistance" call if I see a mech going one - on - one. Perhaps he's overmatched, or began the fight damaged, but he needs help and is usually a light out scouting so off I go just to run into three mechs. I die watching him scamper away. No one on the team knew the threat, and now that I'm dead and HE's gone, a flank is open.
It's all about information. If you don't have a mic, toggle the "r" key to show multiple mechs engaged.
I appreciate your side but know some folks aren't aware the "Target" key offers more than LRM targeting information.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

kyfire, on 31 October 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

BTW, I do NOT run a LRMboat!

Nothing wrong with lurmboat. Lurm[Redacted] on the other hand...

Edited by draiocht, 31 October 2016 - 11:27 PM.
inappropriate language

[Void Angel]

First off, your anecdotal experience isn't representative - I've almost NEVER heard anyone ask if there were LRMs on the team unless they were running a TAG scout (a rare occurrence in my tier.) The most common thing I hear from LRM boaters is "LRMs here, please hold locks." And therein lies the problem...

In most cases, the "ugliness" started when the LRM jockey started to expect his teammates to "hold locks." Now, some people just want folks to know that they're an LRM boat - and their announcements usually reflect this. But many people [Redacted] have this screwed up idea that because they're "a support 'mech," that other people should be taking extra care to hold locks for them, because otherwise their LRMs are useless. This idea is wrong. The phrase, "LRM boat here, please hold locks" also exemplifies this viewpoint, whether or not the LRM user intended to convey it - otherwise, he'd be getting the locks himself.

This concept denotes incompetence: the person who holds the opinion needs to learn to play, and his teammates are entirely right in their estimation of both his abilities and his moral character. It is counterproductive, stupid - and yes, selfish - to expect your teammates to expose themselves to enemy fire so that you can rack up damage in safety. It is imbecilic to remain out in the open under fire (or pursue your target past safety,) simply to retain a lock, and most players who try are educated about their folly in true Darwinian fashion. This is particularly true if you're holding the lock for someone who isn't risking armor for the privilege of doing damage - especially if they're trundling around in an Assault 'mech; especially when they start saying things like "hold locks, people!" during the match. This is where all that animosity comes from, and it's largely warranted.

It's certainly important to lock your target; there are valid reasons why players may choose to keep a target that is out of sight, but as a general rule, this is sound. There are also plenty of LRM boaters who simply want the team to know that they're on the field. But do not whine at people for refusing to die for someone else's damage; instead, just tell people that you're running LRMs, and to hold locks when they can - and if people start mouthing off, that's what the ignore (or report, if it's bad enough) button is for.

Edited by draiocht, 01 November 2016 - 01:23 AM.
unconstructive

[Anachronda]

People really need to get that association out of their head between targeting and LRMs, because then they think targeting is only for LRMs, which they may hate. I never liked the "get your own locks" much, either, since that kind of defeats the purpose of indirect fire. In the end, I just decided not to play that way.

But not targeting screws up all kinds of other stuff. Like OP pointed out, targeting populates the map so people can see concentrations of mechs and where they are pointing. It allows people to call targets and focus fire. It tells people in advance what kind of mech is out there, what damage it has, etc. If you run into a bunch of mechs and are in trouble, people can see you need help.

Even if you do not care about playing with others, it's still dumb not to target mechs IMHO because it deprives YOU of information. Why wouldn't you want to see the damage on and range to a mech you're trying to kill?


**EDIT** Just for the record, The mechs I did build as "LRM boats" did have plenty of backup weapons as well as things like TAG and BAP. And of course I locked everything, I always lock everything. I looked for my own targets, too. But it still goes back to the fact that targeting helps everyone and just because someone suggests getting locks, it doesn't mean they are an LRM boat much less an LRM monkey.

In general, LRMs work best when you are on a team that is set to work with them and is aware. It's not as great in a solo quickplay situation. I've actually played against teams that were very good at focusing LRMs and had a lot of them on their team - holy moley they tore through assaults like nothing.

Edited by Anachronda, 31 October 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Ignatz22]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

First off, your anecdotal experience isn't representative - I've almost NEVER heard anyone ask if there were LRMs on the team unless they were running a TAG scout (a rare occurrence in my tier.) The most common thing I hear from LRM boaters is "LRMs here, please hold locks." And therein lies the problem...

In most cases, the "ugliness" started when the LRM jockey started to expect his teammates to "hold locks." Now, some people just want folks to know that they're an LRM boat - and their announcements usually reflect this. But many people [Redacted] have this screwed up idea that because they're "a support 'mech," that other people should be taking extra care to hold locks for them, because otherwise their LRMs are useless. This idea is wrong. The phrase, "LRM boat here, please hold locks" also exemplifies this viewpoint, whether or not the LRM user intended to convey it - otherwise, he'd be getting the locks himself.

This concept denotes incompetence: the person who holds the opinion needs to learn to play, and his teammates are entirely right in their estimation of both his abilities and his moral character. It is counterproductive, stupid - and yes, selfish - to expect your teammates to expose themselves to enemy fire so that you can rack up damage in safety. It is imbecilic to remain out in the open under fire (or pursue your target past safety,) simply to retain a lock, and most players who try are educated about their folly in true Darwinian fashion. This is particularly true if you're holding the lock for someone who isn't risking armor for the privilege of doing damage - especially if they're trundling around in an Assault 'mech; especially when they start saying things like "hold locks, people!" during the match. This is where all that animosity comes from, and it's largely warranted.

It's certainly important to lock your target; there are valid reasons why players may choose to keep a target that is out of sight, but as a general rule, this is sound. There are also plenty of LRM boaters who simply want the team to know that they're on the field. But do not whine at people for refusing to die for someone else's damage; instead, just tell people that you're running LRMs, and to hold locks when they can - and if people start mouthing off, that's what the ignore (or report, if it's bad enough) button is for.

You never hear this but you KNOW the evil lurking in selfish, demonic LRM boaters who live to see you die for their CBills. You assume they can or will not add to the efforts of the team simply because as part OF the team they ask for help, and add weight to you burden of assumptions by believing the Boater does so from either incompetence, ignorance or a twisted sense of importance.
You read all this from a simple request to, "please lock targets".
You see a cruel taskmaster pushing you to your doom, forcing you to stand in the face of the guns while he sits in the rear, sipping Mint Julips ( all REAL evil-doers sip Mint Julips...) tapping his "chain fire" once in a while. He seeks your demise in a painful, selfish and misguided attempt to subvert the build system and outlive the opponents by avoiding any damage.
Nope.
Not buying it. [Redacted]
The folks I play with want the team to have the most information, the greatest damage from the widest (3 dimensional included) fire lanes and everyone to have a good time.
I asked only that those without mics consider an alternative view of the "Target" button, one that DOES NOT assume Black Souls venture forth in mechs with multiple LRMs.
Lighten up. Please don't assume everyone is out for themselves; some of us play this BECAUSE it's a team game.
Can't say I've heard about folks, "mouthing off" but if they're as angry as you believe my missing them is to my good fortune.
Best of luck out there!

Edited by draiocht, 01 November 2016 - 01:29 AM.
Quote Clean-Up, insult

[Xaat Xuun]

there is a reason I no longer Tag or NARC, LRM[Redacted] don't listen. they rather fire on that littleguy 50 meters away then let the local Mediums and lights deal with it, leaving me unprotected, and wasted my time getting them targets.
I'll pop a UAV, and it's a ugly feeling not seeing the LRM[Redacted] grabbing their own targets.
Been in spectator on some of these guys just in LRM boats, and they're not even targeting

every once in a while, I will find a high perch, so I can spot, call cease fire on targets that are no longer open and under cover, and spot/call targets that are vulnerable. It's a low score for me, but helps the team get theirs higher with less misses.

now, it's not good when your lrm boats are too far away, from the targets you're calling as well.
It's just a extra function a Scout/Spotter needs to keep track of, "where are my LRM Boats location" to the "Targets" location.

I would prefer lrm boaters get their own targets, I'll help, but don't count (depend) on me or others, We'll help, but that's not our priority, I'm out there to kill targets not lock them just for LRM's, though I do lock targets but it's for me, not necessary for lrms. I'll call the Targets, but that's more for Focus firing on one target, which I hope includes lrm raining down on that target

If LRM boaters need (depend) on someone to get their targets, then that need to group up with a spotter

Edited by draiocht, 31 October 2016 - 11:26 PM.
inappropriate language

[Takashi Uchida]

To me, there is a fundamental difference between locking when you can, and actually holding a lock for an extended period of time.

Speaking as someone who mainly plays PUGs and small groups, I believe every player is obligated to target enemies when they can (information is ammunition), but unless they are dedicated tagger/spotter, they cannot be expected to hang around and hold it. If they want to accept the risks of doing it, then fine, but this is a game where facetime usually isn't a good thing. Being exposed means getting smacked around by Gauss and PPC from across the map, or taking an alpha of AC20/SRM to your CT.

Consider:
-Lights: Have to constantly move or else they die. Moving might mean making a turn and breaking lock.
-Brawlers: Have to torso twist away from enemy to mitigate damage
-Snipers: Have to shoot and take cover

I personally feel that people are mislead by the range of "long range missiles," seeing that nice 1k meter reach and thinking they can just hang at the very back of the team. Every meter between you and your target is another opportunity for something to happen and break the lock, making you do zero damage. Now occasionally, you might get lucky and have NARCbait on your team, and you'll rack up 800 damage without moving like two steps, or ever being seen by the enemy. But those are rare ideal situations, especially in casual play. So, keep up with the team, bring a few medium lasers, and be ready to spot. If you have Target Decay (and other targeting augments) and you are relatively close to your target, you don't even have to expose yourself for that long, because your missiles will get there pretty quickly.

When I'm pugging with an LRM boat, what usually screws me over is when half the other team has ECM, usually combined with nobody on my team willing to try and close distance (which is usually what loses no matter what build you're using). It's almost never due to people not holding locks. Even if you have tag, a ton of overlapping ECMs on the other side is going to make your LRMs fairly useless. Usually you'll have to rely on some lights to go harass and jam them. That's a worse-case scenario, where even your medium laser backups probably aren't going to help you, if you can't convince your assaults who actually have lots of reliable direct-fire weapons to move.
.

[Void Angel]

Exactly. Telling people to "please hold locks" indicates that the LRM boater doesn't know how LRM lock mechanics translate into other playing styles. If I can see the enemy, the enemy can see me - and shoot at me. In order to "hold locks," I have to expose myself to unnecessary, likely crippling fire. Two possibilities exist: the LRM boat knows this, or does not know. If he knows, then he just thinks I should be taking damage for him; if he doesn't, he's not competent and is probably a liability to the team. In no case is he in the right - and willful ignorance may well be involved.

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 01 November 2016 - 12:35 AM.
insults, unconstructive

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Hey cool story bro!

Others have already said it before me, but I am going to say it again in my own words just to drive the point home!

I press R when I can (well mines re-mapped but yah...) but its a dangerous place out there...

I gotta lot of things to do, between navigating the map, dipin and dodging sniper sight lines, evasive manuvering, torso twisting... Shooting down uavs, capping objectives... Trying not to die to 4 enemy kodiaks... I cant just stand out in the open and stare at a bear just to die and go into spectator mode just to watch you chain fire 4x LRM 5s...

When the match starts and I see someone say... "LRM boat here, please hold locks..."

You know what translates to me? "LRM boat here, go out and die for me you measly peasants! I want to finish this match with 100% armor value and get my 250+ match score! I expect you to go out at eat bullet hell for my enjoyment!

A good LRM pilot doesnt need to ask for locks, because hes good enough to get his own locks and share armor with the team! Everyone has to share the risk, and a good LRM pilot is ready and willing to step up to the plate! He wont sacrifice his team mates like pawns, he will bring the rain and take the pain!

[SuicideJockey]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Exactly. Telling people to "please hold locks" indicates that the LRM boater doesn't know how LRM lock mechanics translate into other playing styles. If I can see the enemy, the enemy can see me - and shoot at me. In order to "hold locks," I have to expose myself to unnecessary, likely crippling fire. Two possibilities exist: the LRM boat knows this, or does not know. If he knows, then he just thinks I should be taking damage for him; if he doesn't, he's not competent and is probably a liability to the team. In no case is he in the right - and willful ignorance may well be involved.

[Redacted]

Do you really believe personal insults are the way to make a point? Your posts don't show you in your best light.

Edited by draiocht, 01 November 2016 - 12:42 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

SuicideJockey, on 31 October 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Do you really believe personal insults are the way to make a point? Your posts don't show you in your best light.

Someone telling me "to hold locks" like im their pet monkey is way more insulting...

[loopala]

the R key is your friend. use it early and often. the R key is a tool. learn it, use it, get friendly with it, but by no means commit suicide for a lock. somewhere the concept of using the R key got confused with helping LRM boats get high dam but does nothing for you. once you learn to read the wire frame and aim for week spots you will come to use the R key. and yes the LRM boats will use your targeting info but really if you are dancing with a Kodiak and someone is lobbing LRMs at it, is that a bad thing?

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

There is a very big difference between "Aquire Targets" and "Hold Locks".

While they both use the "R key" (default), they are very different statements.

When you Aquire a target, you as a pilot have pressed the "R key" and there was an enemy that met the requirements to be targeted by you.

But "Holding Locks" means that you are to keep that enemy targeted so the missiles can hit their desired enemy. LRMs continue to try to track as long as the inbound missiles have a lock. The problem here is that LRMs have a long travel time, and their pilots get pissed when their team mates dont "hold locks".

I will aquire targets, and i assume my fellow team mates will do the same, but of course i dont expect nor require them to take unnecessary risks.

Granted if someone on voip calls for a specific target for focus fire, I am generally motivated to do what ever it takes to get sight lines on that enemy.