82 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Have to say I have no problem with 8/8 quirks from what I have seen so far. There is no indication of that mechs like SMN and MLX will lose their general chassi-quirks because of 8/8 being added. I'd be more worried about weapon-specific quirks attached to specific pods, they may (or may not) become associated with the 8/8 quirks.

I can see some benefits of the 8/8 system too, it becomes easier to implement and visualize and balance troublesome pods like the TBR-A LT. Instead of giving all individual pods + and - stats they can just safely slam a package on the 8/8 set and accept the top performance of the omnimech as the best pods + the base chassi quirks. I can see why they would want that, that will free up Paul to spend more time on UAC jam chance tweaks instead. It also works well with hero-omnis etc. I wouldn't panic just yet, it all depends on what numbers PGI puts in the xml-sheets... ok fair enough... PANIC!

[jjm1]

Currently doing the Viper. Its the first and only set of 8 quirks mech I have.

My main issue is that it rewards the weakest builds while custom builds could do with a lot of love too.

Plus I've been getting legged in a couple of hits by cheetahs. Its really Fn annoying when they have ECM, a MK-1000 damage soak, more quirks and more firepower. And lately half the games are in total darkness because seeing them eyeballing your bits is an unfair advantage.

[Hades Trooper]

SecretMantis, on 01 November 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be funny if, in the November patch, they decide to change all clan quirks to 8/8? Bottom line, don't buy mechs for quirks.

Never have bought mech for there quirks, but those mechs that could use them for whatever reason limiting them to a set of 8 rule is just dumb

[Carl Vickers]

I think the statement should actually be 'dont pay real cash for mechs with quirks'. I use space bucks to buy the quirk flavor of the quarter mechs, if they are available for space bucks, if not I go without.

Once they get nerfed into oblivion I sell them and have mech bays available for the next quirk flavor of the quarter.

Pretty simple.

[Andi Nagasia]

Duke Nedo, on 02 November 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

Have to say I have no problem with 8/8 quirks from what I have seen so far. There is no indication of that mechs like SMN and MLX will lose their general chassi-quirks because of 8/8 being added. I'd be more worried about weapon-specific quirks attached to specific pods, they may (or may not) become associated with the 8/8 quirks.

I can see some benefits of the 8/8 system too, it becomes easier to implement and visualize and balance troublesome pods like the TBR-A LT. Instead of giving all individual pods + and - stats they can just safely slam a package on the 8/8 set and accept the top performance of the omnimech as the best pods + the base chassi quirks. I can see why they would want that, that will free up Paul to spend more time on UAC jam chance tweaks instead. It also works well with hero-omnis etc. I wouldn't panic just yet, it all depends on what numbers PGI puts in the xml-sheets... ok fair enough... PANIC!

let me ask you this, would you be Against a Similar 8/8 system for BattleMechs?
for instance locking all Offensive Quirks to 3/3 Sets (Engine/Structure/Armor)
-
as OmniMechs cant change their engines or Upgrades this forces them into Stock Configs,
which punishes Players for using an OmniMech as an OmniMech,
-
likewise i think this would be on the same lines as locking all BattleMechs to the Same Standard,
if you want Offensive Quirks for your BattleMech you cant change your Engine, or Upgrades,
-
so for both sides you cant change your Hardpoints Engine or Upgrades if you want Offensive quirks,
its only fair for what happens to one be balanced and happen to the other, for consistency,

[Hades Trooper]

NoiseCrypt, on 02 November 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

If PGI are working towards less quirks and balance based on baseline stats instead, then this is a huge step in the right direction.

If people can't understand that the only way to fight power-creep is to tone down "mech performance", then there really isn't any point to threads like these... other than juvenile complaining of course.

Cue wailing babies and forum emos

So if your theory is correct, why is it again clans that have to be nerfed 1st? surely just having reduced quirks is enough as it is without needing to go completely overboard with this rule of 8?

[Andi Nagasia]

visionGT4, on 02 November 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Why is it that whenever we get these clan entitlement threads that the SMN & MLX seem to be the only mechs that get a mention. Yet the ACH, SCR, EBJ, HBR, TBR and big hairy Bear - the best mechs in the game don't.

The best mechs in the game will continue to be the best mechs in the game regardless of 8/8

thats right the best will still be the best with this system, even though it will hurt weaker OmniMechs,
so its a bad idea, if it hurts the weakest, and doesnt nothing to the strongest than its not working,

[Hades Trooper]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 November 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

let me ask you this, would you be Against a Similar 8/8 system for BattleMechs?
for instance locking all Offensive Quirks to 3/3 Sets (Engine/Structure/Armor)
-
as OmniMechs cant change their engines or Upgrades this forces them into Stock Configs,
which punishes Players for using an OmniMech as an OmniMech,
-
likewise i think this would be on the same lines as locking all BattleMechs to the Same Standard,
if you want Offensive Quirks for your BattleMech you cant change your Engine, or Upgrades,
-
so for both sides you cant change your Hardpoints Engine or Upgrades if you want Offensive quirks,
its only fair for what happens to one be balanced and happen to the other, for consistency,

mate you explained it much better than i could,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 November 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

so for both sides you cant change your Hardpoints Engine or Upgrades if you want Offensive quirks,
its only fair for what happens to one be balanced and happen to the other, for consistency,

No, it's not fair, because the reasons one side gets quirks are not the same as the reasons the other side has them.

This was already explained on Page 1.

[SplashDown]

1 more nerf or negative patch for clan and this game will be in the recycle bin once and for all.

[Deathlike]

SplashDown, on 02 November 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

1 more nerf or negative patch for clan and this game will be in the recycle bin once and for all.

Don't put mercury our balance overlord in the trash...

https://soundcloud.com/perant/mercury

Edited by Deathlike, 02 November 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

Folks only the absolute worst possible clan mech loadout should have any quirks.

If you got 2+ high energy mounts and more than 20 tons available, somebody with a substandard IQ should be able to play a clan mech fairly well. (note if you use erppc, gauss, ermlas, uac10 and ersmlas with a few other maybe sometimes options)

Yup, clan has locked engines and sometimes endo/ferro, but gauss is 2 tons lighter with erlg and lg pulse being 1 ton lighter. Just the safety of clan XL is worht 5 tons. The Dwolf is the only locked mech that could use some love and this is mostly solo pug. Many of the locked clan mechs still never sink to the absolute craptastic level that IS mechs get to see.

Basically, switching omni pods on almost all clan mechs is worth at least 15% quirk or 30% velocity quirk. If you can not do this, it is not the quirks, but your ability to optimize builds. Hell the timber w 3 energy pods in the left torso is usually worth the agility hit unless you are up against the very best players just because of the weapons convergence.

NOTE: I am a mediocre plus player who only runs the better clan mechs with my fun builds mech being the HBR in pug Q. So it is not like I am pushing for clan nerfs.

Edited by Chuck Jager, 03 November 2016 - 12:51 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 November 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

let me ask you this, would you be Against a Similar 8/8 system for BattleMechs?
for instance locking all Offensive Quirks to 3/3 Sets (Engine/Structure/Armor)
-
as OmniMechs cant change their engines or Upgrades this forces them into Stock Configs,
which punishes Players for using an OmniMech as an OmniMech,
-
likewise i think this would be on the same lines as locking all BattleMechs to the Same Standard,
if you want Offensive Quirks for your BattleMech you cant change your Engine, or Upgrades,
-
so for both sides you cant change your Hardpoints Engine or Upgrades if you want Offensive quirks,
its only fair for what happens to one be balanced and happen to the other, for consistency,

That's crazy talk dude. Seriously though, as far as I know we don't even know that 8/8 is coming. If it turns out that the 12 changes to clan mechs are indeed 8/8, then we don't know how they will go around setting the numbers for them. That's why there is no reason to panic.

What we know is that having 8/8 quirks does not rule out having ordinary quirks on the chassi that are in effect even if you mix pods. See the Night Gyr for example, even if you mix it retains the heat transfer quirk. With that in mind, there is no reason to assume that weak Omnis will lose all their quirks for non-8/8 builds.

There is a good reason to simplify Omni quirks though, it looks like his:


+ some more lines that didn't fit the page... now, this is not good for new players, hell it's not good for me either. The summoner quirks is almost two pages of that.

The biggest worry with 8/8 for me is actually that they give some meta-builds 8/8 bonuses that do not need buffs because they happen to fit a 8/8 set... I wouldn't be surprised, and it would affect the game much more than if the MLX or SMN quirks are changed a bit.

SplashDown, on 02 November 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

1 more nerf or negative patch for clan and this game will be in the recycle bin once and for all.

I hope so, for the sake of balance. Clans now have several top builds in all classes, IS probably are on par in Heavies and Lights thanks to two Heroes behind a paywall, the BW and the Oxide... not sure if WHM-6R quite makes the cut so if you disregard pay-mechs clans have all the top bots at the moment.

[Baulven]

Chuck Jager, on 03 November 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

Folks only the absolute worst possible clan mech loadout should have any quirks.

If you got 2+ high energy mounts and more than 20 tons available, somebody with a substandard IQ should be able to play a clan mech fairly well. (note if you use erppc, gauss, ermlas, uac10 and ersmlas with a few other maybe sometimes options)

Yup, clan has locked engines and sometimes endo/ferro, but gauss is 2 tons lighter with erlg and lg pulse being 1 ton lighter. Just the safety of clan XL is worht 5 tons. The Dwolf is the only locked mech that could use some love and this is mostly solo pug. Many of the locked clan mechs still never sink to the absolute craptastic level that IS mechs get to see.

Basically, switching omni pods on almost all clan mechs is worth at least 15% quirk or 30% velocity quirk. If you can not do this, it is not the quirks, but your ability to optimize builds. Hell the timber w 3 energy pods in the left torso is usually worth the agility hit unless you are up against the very best players just because of the weapons convergence.

NOTE: I am a mediocre plus player who only runs the better clan mechs with my fun builds mech being the HBR in pug Q. So it is not like I am pushing for clan nerfs.

The Mist Lynx, Summoner, Ice Ferret, Adder, Gargoyle and Executioner would all like to have a word with you. The dire wolf is a ******* mobile turret, and would surpass or at least equal the Kodiak 3 if they decided to start giving it quirks as the only things holding it back now are twist angle, twist speed and max speed.

[Chuck Jager]

Baulven, on 03 November 2016 - 01:24 AM, said:

The Mist Lynx, Summoner, Ice Ferret, Adder, Gargoyle and Executioner would all like to have a word with you. The dire wolf is a ******* mobile turret, and would surpass or at least equal the Kodiak 3 if they decided to start giving it quirks as the only things holding it back now are twist angle, twist speed and max speed.

Gargoyle and ice ferret are the only 2 of these that are equal to the multitude of IS pos mechs of which quirks do not help.

I was only talking about the locked engine and the only clan mech that has the locked engine being the biggest issue is the Dwolf. The mechs you listed need more than the engine changed to be half way useable. Faster low tonnage mechs in medium, heavy and assault of both IS and clan all seem to be at low end of performance.

Do not buy/play pos mechs is the best quirk.

[NoiseCrypt]

Hades Trooper, on 02 November 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

So if your theory is correct, why is it again clans that have to be nerfed 1st? surely just having reduced quirks is enough as it is without needing to go completely overboard with this rule of 8?

It's my understanding that quirks was introduced to compensate for clan mechs being inherently better than IS mechs, in general.
So if my theory is correct and they are trying to de-quirk the weapon part of MWO, then it makes the most sense scale the clan mechs weapon quirks back first, and then adjust the IS mech weapon quirks accordingly.

And on a side note. Having weapon quirks following the omnipods around, is a nightmare with regards to weapon balance in general. Which is a clan mech issue only.

Introducing the rule of 8. They can now focus on balancing individual clan mechs instead of an entire chassis with mechs^8 combinations.

Edited by NoiseCrypt, 03 November 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Jesus, people whining about the bad omnis. Hey! The simple solution is to give the pods with the worse stuff the best quirks, and barring any options, give the pods with the only hardpoints some quirks. It's really that simple.

I'm more worried about my good mechs being ****** around more. I've only got 2 cheetahs and only 1 of them has the Cbill bonus. I want to be able to run as many builds on that Cbll variant as I can to keep my money rolling in, and I don't want to be receiving negative quirks or not having the full benefit of whatever 8/8 gr8 m8 nonsense for building my omni like an omni.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

No, it's not fair, because the reasons one side gets quirks are not the same as the reasons the other side has them.

This was already explained on Page 1.

all i care about is BattleMech to OmniMech Balance, not Pushing IS vs Clan and which is OP,

if you Lock OmniMech Quirks into 8/8 Sets they can only Change their weapons nothing else,
so no Changing Engines, Structure-Upgrades, Armor-Upgrades or Hard-Points,

so to be Fair Lock BattleMech Quirks into 3/3 Sets they can only Change their weapons nothing else,
so no Changing Engines, Structure-Upgrades, Armor-Upgrades or Hard-Points,

this Keeps both Sides Balanced if Balance is what you are looking for


Anyone who is Saying that IS & Clan are Imbalanced, and this needs to be Done to Pull Clan Back is Wrong,
Maybe if Clan Mechs only Had OmniMech and IS will never get OmniMechs, but this isnt the Case,
if you think Clan is OP then Clan Weapons need to Change not OmniMech Quirk Rules,

Changing things to a Set of 8/8 wont hurt up and coming Clan BattleMechs,
this only Hurts Clan OmniMechs that are Struggling, taking away what makes them OmniMechs,

so if Locking Everything but your weapons is the only way for OmniMechs to get Offensive Quirks,
then its only Fair, Locking Everything but your weapons is the only way for BattleMechs to get Offensive Quirks,

this isnt about IS vs Clan, STOP making it about IS vs Clan,
this is a BattleMech vs OmniMech Problem, it should be Handled as such!

[C E Dwyer]

Much as I'm not a Clan Fan, locking quirks to a mech and not specific pods does seem rather errrmmm...

Not what an Omnimech is all about..

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 November 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

all i care about is BattleMech to OmniMech Balance, not Pushing IS vs Clan and which is OP,

if you Lock OmniMech Quirks into 8/8 Sets they can only Change their weapons nothing else,
so no Changing Engines, Structure-Upgrades, Armor-Upgrades or Hard-Points,

so to be Fair Lock BattleMech Quirks into 3/3 Sets they can only Change their weapons nothing else,
so no Changing Engines, Structure-Upgrades, Armor-Upgrades or Hard-Points,

this Keeps both Sides Balanced if Balance is what you are looking for


Anyone who is Saying that IS & Clan are Imbalanced, and this needs to be Done to Pull Clan Back is Wrong,
Maybe if Clan Mechs only Had OmniMech and IS will never get OmniMechs, but this isnt the Case,
if you think Clan is OP then Clan Weapons need to Change not OmniMech Quirk Rules,

Changing things to a Set of 8/8 wont hurt up and coming Clan BattleMechs,
this only Hurts Clan OmniMechs that are Struggling, taking away what makes them OmniMechs,

so if Locking Everything but your weapons is the only way for OmniMechs to get Offensive Quirks,
then its only Fair, Locking Everything but your weapons is the only way for BattleMechs to get Offensive Quirks,

this isnt about IS vs Clan, STOP making it about IS vs Clan,
this is a BattleMech vs OmniMech Problem, it should be Handled as such!

I will say that 8/8 is bad...but only if the 'Mech is bad. The Gyr loses nothing significant, and in fact comes out stronger, by throwing away its quirks to run a hybrid set. That is 8/8 working properly. There is nothing that precludes a bad Omni from having pod quirks to help it out and 8/8 quirks to make a bad stock variant suck less.

Pretty much everything else in this post is wrong, though, and has been outlined quite clearly in this thread. Just because you mirror 8/8 by locking BattleMech quirks to stock loadout does not mean it is fair. It is nowhere close to being that simple.

Besides, there are only two good Clan BattleMechs, soon to be three. Most of the Omni's are actually very potent. The ones that aren't either drew the short straw by being Lights (or fat lights), and suffer from Light problems, or they are called the Summoner.

You need to go back and do your homework instead of spamming up boards with links and references to bad ideas that have already been talked down by players more qualified than either of us.