52 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

When you are the only one, who push, and die early as the result? Or when your entire team decides to simply camp base at Assault? First can be treated as "suicide", but according to rules playing passively, i.e. "camping base" - is forbidden too. So who's right in this case?

I've just played such kind of match. It was Frozen City, that has completely open center - around 1000m of completely open space. I was in my brawler - 400m optimal range. Zero sniping capability. But edges of map still allow you to rush towards city part, that is perfect for brawling. Yeah. And I decided to do it. Bad thing - my whole team decided to camp base instead. Even Lights, lol. Yeah, I did all, I could do - dealt 200dmg and died due to zero support from my team. I have all my chats turned off especially for such cases, so I can only guess, what was happening in chat at that moment. But I was surely reported for suiciding.

So. Who is wrong and who is right? My 'Mech didn't have any sniping capabilities. I decided to do, what I was supposed to do in my build - to brawl. My team hasn't supported me. They violated rule, that forbids passive gameplay - camping, i.e. waiting for enemies to come to you, instead of moving towards them. And with their support my "suicide" wouldn't be a suicide. So it's my team, that "killed" me - not myself.

I've got sick of this stupid map. It's either counterclockwise NASCAR or camping opposite corners of "crater" at map's center. Recently map rotation have been extremely terrible - same maps, like Therma, Forest, Frozen, Caustic, etc. again, again and again, where Frozen is always "best of the worst". Can we stop this crappy "bring most unpopular maps" BS already? Game itself is terrible enough to also have terrible map rotation in it.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 November 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[El Bandito]

I'm 99% sure that you could have accomplished more if you had stayed by your team and let the impatient enemy come to you instead. So the fault is yours. Pushing is fine, but definitely not just by yourself against 12 enemies lying in wait. Patience is a great virtue for the brawler types.

And no, camping at spawn is not considered breaking the rules. Not considered as non-participation.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Bombast]

First, you weren't 'in the wrong,' but if if the team chooses to camp and you don't, well.. you are the one being silly.

Second...

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

But I was surely reported for suiciding.

And you know this how?

[Besh]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

When you are the only one, who push, and die early as the result? Or when your entire team decides to simply camp base at Assault? First can be treated as "suicide", but according to rules playing passively, i.e. "camping base" - is forbidden too. So who's right in this case?

I've just played such kind of match. It was Frozen City, that has completely open center - around 1000m of completely open space. I was in my brawler - 400m optimal range. Zero sniping capability. But edges of map still allow you to rush towards city part, that is perfect for brawling. Yeah. And I decided to do it. Bad thing - my whole team decided to camp base instead. Even Lights, lol. Yeah, I did all, I could do - dealt 200dmg and died due to zero support from my team. I have all my chats turned off especially for such cases, so I can only guess, what was happening in chat at that moment. But I was surely reported for suiciding.

So. Who is wrong and who is right? My 'Mech didn't have any sniping capabilities. I decided to do, what I was supposed to do in my build - to brawl. My team hasn't supported me. They violated rule, that forbids passive gameplay - camping, i.e. waiting for enemies to come to you, instead of moving towards them. And with their support my "suicide" wouldn't be a suicide. So it's my team, that "killed" me - not myself.

I've got sick of this stupid map. It's either counterclockwise NASCAR or camping opposite corners of "crater" at map's center. Recently map rotation have been extremely terrible - same maps, like Therma, Forest, Frozen, Caustic, etc. again, again and again, where Frozen is always "best of the worst". Can we stop this crappy "bring most unpopular maps" BS already? Game itself is terrible enough to also have terrible map rotation in it.

A ) Not necessarily did you get reported . Most people's game behaviour and thinking does not revolve around Gestapoing anyone they think does something wrong .

B ) Even if you have VOIP disabled, you should have Text enabled . Not being able to communicate with your Team in any way is , excuse the harsh terms - the stupidest thing you can do . More stupid than stubbornly rushing into the enemy alone .

C ) You are not "supposed" to Charge into the enemy alone simply because you are a Brawler . Simply put: you were impatient . There comes a point during the Match, even during Frozen CIty snipefests, when some enemies start pushing in. That would have been your time . Patience, young Padawan .

Lastly: If you hate the Maps, and the Game -> why exactly are you playing it ?

Edited by Besh, 02 November 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[MrMadguy]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm 99% sure that you could have accomplished more if you had stayed by your team and let the impatient enemy come to you instead. So the fault is yours. Pushing is fine, but definitely not just by yourself.

Patience is a great virtue for the brawler types.

You would be right, if this map wouldn't allow any pushing at all - so sniping would be the only possible tactic. But pushing and brawling are possible on this map. So when there is an opportunity to play actively instead playing passively - then it should be used. And rules clearly state it.

Quote

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

Besh, on 02 November 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

B ) Even if you have VOIP disabled, you should have Text enabled . Not being able to communicate with your Team in any way is , excuse the harsh terms - the stupidest thing you can do . More stupid than stubbornly rushing into the enemy alone .

At some point I found out, that the only way, I used my chat - was for complaining about terrible maps, modes and vote trolls, who brought them. Same, as in MMOs, where public chats are being uses mostly for GS spamming and are never used for actual communication between players. So I decided to simply turn it off. No chat - no complains. No woman - no cry. It's not for me - it's better for my teams.

P. S. Go to hell, PGI. I'm done for today.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 November 2016 - 11:05 AM.

[Deathlike]

Even if you are a brawler, you don't "push" to just push because you are a brawler.

Patience is the difference between a successful push and a horrible time.

Also, I thought this thread was supposed to be about our balance overlord in the public queues...

/shrug

[Bombast]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

P. S. Go to hell, PGI. I'm done for today.

See you tomorrow.

Shouldn't you update your signature, since you obviously haven't quit this game?

[El Bandito]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

You would be right, if this map wouldn't allow any pushing at all - so sniping would be the only possible tactic. But pushing and brawling are possible on this map. So when there is an opportunity to play actively instead playing passively - then it should be used. And rules clearly state it.

P. S. Go to hell, PGI. I'm done for today.

Except your teammates were moving and some were sniping at the enemy, therefore it does not count as non-participation.

And the maps you just dissed all offer different flavors of combat. Dunno why you are so upset about that? Are you one of those bores who only play HPG/Mining/Canyon?

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Right now, I'm totally envisioning the MWO equivalent of "Leeroy Jenkins" while the rest of the team was plotting a strategy in chat...

[Bombast]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 02 November 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Right now, I'm totally envisioning the MWO equivalent of "Leeroy Jenkins" while the rest of the team was plotting a strategy in chat...

I remember, during the last KMDD event, getting killed by a guy with a 'Leeroy Jenkins' derived name. He was playing games in a Warhawk with too many PPCs, waiting until mechs presented a torso that he could one shot, and then killed himself for a single kill. That exchange seemed to usually be an Assault Class Warhawk for a Light Class enemy.

Kind of amusing, except that he 'ruined' an x2 XP match for me.

[Lyoto Machida]

Besh, on 02 November 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

A ) Not necessarily did you get reported . Most people's game behaviour and thinking does not revolve around Gestapoing anyone they think does something wrong .

B ) Even if you have VOIP disabled, you should have Text enabled . Not being able to communicate with your Team in any way is , excuse the harsh terms - the stupidest thing you can do . More stupid than stubbornly rushing into the enemy alone .

C ) You are not "supposed" to Charge into the enemy alone simply because you are a Brawler . Simply put: you were impatient . There comes a point during the Match, even during Frozen CIty snipefests, when some enemies start pushing in. That would have been your time . Patience, young Padawan .

Lastly: If you hate the Maps, and the Game -> why exactly are you playing it ?

His name is MrMadguy...why wouldn't he be upset???

[MrMadguy]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Except your teammates were moving and some were sniping at the enemy, therefore it does not count as non-participation.

And the maps you just dissed all offer different flavors of combat. Dunno why you are so upset about that? Are you one of those bores who only play HPG/Mining/Canyon?

Yeah, I'm of those bores, who played ALL old maps, except Therma and Alpine (and even Alpine, when it had old more balanced spawn points), with great pleasure.

[LordNothing]

as much as i hate sedentary play, i really cant call out the hole hiders and back campers out for non participation, at least not any more than they can call me out for aggressive leeroy type play, like trying to get into brawling range, or trying to spot targets for the lerm boats and dieing in the process. if i played your way i would just be doing less work. both sides are trying to play the game their way. trying to play the game, aka participation. victory results when the players start thinking of the team, and try to put their assets to the best use. of course what pug has time for that (especially during the back to back events recently).

nonparticipation is any of these:

starting a game and quitting when you can still fight.
starting a game and afking (even unintentionally).
intentional suicide (dont like map/team/whatever).
intentional hiding (such as to save kdr).

Edited by LordNothing, 02 November 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[Sjorpha]

You have chat turned off so you can bumrush like a fool without having to hear the reaction?

Wow, that is stupid. That is so stupid. I can't believe how stupid that is.

Brawler is the role that requires leadership and communication the most, no wonder you think sniping is still "meta" if you demand being able to run brawlers while refusing to communicate and coordinate. How do you expect to make a successful push without actually calling for a push and actively taking charge of it?

Your complaints about the maps are silly, but I do agree that map selection is done wrong. Not for the reasons you argue though, but because some maps gets played more than others leading to less variation. It should just be selected randomly with equal chance for all maps.

[Burke IV]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

my whole team decided to camp base instead. Even Lights, lol.

I had a game just like that. Was charging at the nme look back, they all having a meeting behind a building. So i turned back and camped aswell and we all stood there for some minutes before the other team rolled up and killed us all. Stange thing is we did this camping thing even after going 1 mech down so there was no justification. I have no explanation, it is kinda drifting towards non participation tho. It only takes a few people like this to ruin the game

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

Or when your entire team decides to simply camp base at Assault?
...according to rules playing passively, i.e. "camping base" - is forbidden too.

They violated rule, that forbids passive gameplay - camping, i.e. waiting for enemies to come to you, instead of moving towards them. And with their support my "suicide" wouldn't be a suicide.

Actually, it's in the Rules that you cannot go to your base and shut down or go AFK or something like that, BUT you can use the "Base Defense" tactics.

I would say that you misunderstood that rule.

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

So it's my team, that "killed" me - not myself.

So you did something completely stupid of your own accord and you died because of it, but you blame your team?

I like brawling 'Mechs, but there must be the right moment to engage the enemy. And I am sorry to say that, but charging the entire enemy team alone and without support is not the right tactics for brawlers - not in BattleTech and not in MWO.

[Davers]

Non-participation is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but is mostly about AFK/suicide farming.

[MrMadguy]

Davers, on 02 November 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Non-participation is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but is mostly about AFK/suicide farming.

I mean, this is old problem: "suicide" is easily distinguishable, while "avoiding engagement" - isn't. I.e. if I brawl, cuz I'm brawler, and team simply camps base, instead of supporting me at least by snipe/LRM fire and I die early as the result - this falls under "dying early and/or abnormally". But when there is a player at the end of match with completely fresh armor, i.e. it's obvious, that he has been avoiding engagement with enemy team within entire duration of match, who also tries to run away and hide, after his team was killed - then it's extremely hard to say, that it's "avoiding engagement" kind of non-participation rule violation. I.e. due to some reason there is imbalance between this two rules. Playing actively, while the rest of the team is way too passive - is forbidden. But playing too passively, while the rest of the team is active - isn't. And way too many players abuse this situation now. They hide behind their teammates and use them as meat shields. And I simply don't want to play "their game". Cuz when everybody tries to hide behind each other - matches turn into Hide-and-idle-behind-hill-Warrior Online.

[Davers]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

I mean, this is old problem: "suicide" is easily distinguishable, while "avoiding engagement" - isn't. I.e. if I brawl, cuz I'm brawler, and team simply camps base, instead of supporting me at least by snipe/LRM fire and I die early as the result - this falls under "dying early and/or abnormally". But when there is a player at the end of match with completely fresh armor, i.e. it's obvious, that he has been avoiding engagement with enemy team within entire duration of match, who also tries to run away and hide, after his team was killed - then it's extremely hard to say, that it's "avoiding engagement" kind of non-participation rule violation. I.e. due to some reason there is imbalance between this two rules. Playing actively, while the rest of the team is way too passive - is forbidden. But playing too passively, while the rest of the team is active - isn't. And way too many players abuse this situation now. They hide behind their teammates and use them as meat shields. And I simply don't want to play "their game". Cuz when everybody tries to hide behind each other - matches turn into Hide-and-idle-behind-hill-Warrior Online.

The solo Q is just filled with players who are trying to "play safe", hoping to clean up at the end of the round. The only way to reliably get out of that "every man for himself" mindset is to drop in a premade group.

[Red Shrike]

MrMadguy, on 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

P. S. Go to hell, PGI. I'm done for today.

I'd cheer at a map rotation like that. Finally no Canyon Network, HPG or Mining Collective. And no Skirmish either! Although they probably voted Assault just to play Skirmish all over again.