46 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

Wouldn't it be the easiest thing in the world to cheat around the reticule bloom? Some kind of software that superimposes a crosshair over the game? Or use a magic marker?

[FupDup]

dwwolf, on 02 November 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

2) Random variance of said fired round because there are many variables that affect where it hits.
Be it wind, barrel temperature, temperature of propellant, amount of propellant, weight of the round, minor variances in the projectiles shape etc etc.

None of those are random.

Wind speed and direction can be directly measured, and then accounted for by adjusting your aim.

Barrel temperature is mostly dependent on how many shots you've fired in a given time span, and for huge machines like mechs there could easily be sensors to read the temperature.

The temperature of the environment around you (which has an effect on both barrel and propellant temp) is measurable easily.

The amount of propellant is going to be pretty similar for every round of the same ammo type, unless the manufacturing quality control is really terrible.

The weight of the round will be pretty consistent for the same reason as above.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2016 - 03:04 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

EDIT: Wait, are we using the same definition of "bloom" here? The definition I'm using is purely about what happens to the size of your crosshair. Your shots actually spreading out is not bloom, it's just called spread.

EDIT2: Just played a few minutes, can confirm that the Sniper SMG and Spy normal revolver do not have bloom. Spread yes, but not bloom.

I thought they may have bloom since they have spread, but then again, those don't matter where you hit which is probably why the Ambassador has bloom, because where it hits matters a lot more for that specific weapon so bloom is helpful in this case to know when you will hit exactly where you aim for.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Bud Crue]

I think I am having a flashback to a game one of my roommates played long ago...Rainbow 6? I think that was it. Where if you stood still the reticle was stable and allowed fine specific location aiming, but when you moved it got wider, and if you really were running and jumping it got crazy big. I might have the game wrong, but is that sort of mechanism what you are talking about, but instead of (or maybe in addition to) movement causing the "bloom" its the number of weapons or a total potential damage value of the weapons fired that causes the bloom?

Edited by Bud Crue, 02 November 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I define reticule bloom as a process that causes progressive inaccuracy over time by causing the point of aim to flutter within a diameter that increases or decreases depending on your rate of fire and size of gun, even when you are not moving your reticule.

Like, how spraying MachineGun fire will pepper the side of a barn, but firing shot by shot can provide tack-driver accuracy.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 November 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

I define reticule bloom as a process that causes progressive inaccuracy over time by causing the point of aim to flutter within a diameter that increases or decreases depending on your rate of fire and size of gun, even when you are not moving your reticule.

Like, how spraying MachineGun fire will pepper the side of a barn, but firing shot by shot can provide tack-driver accuracy.

Understand. Alas, I LOVE the idea, but if the future of this game is esports, I gotta think that Russ et al would never go along with this. Sounds like something a Battletech game might have and not so much something that they could market to the precision skill crowd (I'm not knocking that aspect of play per se, just recognizing that PGI puts a lot of emphasis there).

Edited by Bud Crue, 02 November 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Understand. Alas, I LOVE the idea, but if the future of this game is esports, I gotta think that Russ et al would never go along with this. Sounds like something a Battletech game might have and not so much something that they could market to the precision skill crowd (I'm not knocking that aspect of play per se, just recognizing that PGI puts a lot of emphasis there).

Don't most FPS games have progressive reticule bloom for automatic weapons?

[Bud Crue]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Don't most FPS games have progressive reticule bloom for automatic weapons?

Beats me. This is the only game I play (I played the civ series of games before this and all the earlier iterations of MW...that's really it). But even if you are right, it seems to me that the idea smacks of an RNG aspect deciding where your weapons hit on the mech, and a large and fairly vocal aspect of this community has expressed loathing at that sort of mechanism. But like I said, I like it. I'm willing to jump on the band wagon to try to get PGI to at least take notice of it. In any event, Its a hell of a lot more elegant than Ghost Heat or Energy Draw and for that reason alone it ought to be considered.

[Carl Vickers]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Soooo..... imagine if there was 1.) an actual energy draw system that taxed your electrical output for firing electrically-powered weapons (lasers, PPCs, Gauss) and limited how often/many of those you can shoot within a period of time, 2.) Made all missile launchers ripple-fire, and 3.) reticule bloom based on the recoil for firing kinetic energy weapons (AC, Gauss, PPCs).

Would there be any need for Ghost Heat or any kinds of heat taxes?

(Yes, Gauss is an electrically-powered rifle, and PPCs are bursts of high-velocity particles that are supposed to cause damage by imparting kinetic energy)


P.S. I do think a randomness element should be incorporated into the bloom diameter. So if you fire a bunch of kinetic energy weapons right after the other ( or all at once), they don't all hit the same pixel. This would curb pinpoint alphas of ballistic/PPC weapons.

Ripplefire missiles would mitigate the Fire All The Missiles problem of being instagibbed by boaters. Could also just enforce a 2x2x2 type of chain fire (thus firing 2 weapons every half second) for when many missiles are fired "at once"

And a proper energy draw would prevent 12SL alphas while still allowing 6 x 6's

How dare you make complete and utter logical sense, that does not belong in this game.

I like it a lot and thats why it will never happen.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I doubt huge machines from the future (each of course with a mass of 20+ tons) care about the recoil created a laser pointer...

[ice trey]

Reticule bloom is a nice concept, but the thing is I really don't see it as specifically necessary for PPCs or Gauss Rifles. Gone are the days where people loaded six PPCs on a stalker.

It needs to apply to everything, ideally expanding based on how much throttle you've put down. When clanners are using lasers to get 60-damage pinpoint alphas with Large/Medium laser spam, it overwhelms the whole hit location mechanic that was meant to take damage to random locations, whether or not they doubled the armor values. Pinpoint alphas need to go. If PGI choses to do that with reticule bloom, or by simply removing the ability to fire more than one weapon at a time... I don't mind. You do that, TTK (or as I've heard people gripe "if you just leg everyone at the start of the match you'll make it longer", Trigger-pulls to kill) goes up and the game becomes more about winning in the game, less about winning in the mech bay.

Also, if you can pinpoint six small pulse lasers, it takes away from the usefulness of big-bore Armor-breakers like the PPC, Gauss Rifle, AC 10 and 20. There's a reason why an AC20 is considered more useful than four medium lasers.

[El Bandito]

Canon-wise we already got a good excuse for removing instant PP damages. Those targeting computers need time to lock onto specific locations. Which can be incorporated into the game... if PGI was half-competent.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2016 - 06:59 PM.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Quit trying to add ED and cone of Fire to the game.

~Thanks!

Note: if you want to roll dice you can go play the board game or wait for HBS

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

AFAIK bloom isn't based on randomness (or at least it shouldn't be).

Bloom just means that your targeting crosshair gets bigger, making it a bit harder to figure out where it's pointing and thus harder to aim.

The reticle gets bigger to indicate the area within which you can expect your shot to land, so there is some RNG involved. That is how it works in pretty much any game since ever. Else, it doesn't actually do anything to make placing the shot harder, because your brain will automatically center things inside the ring (which is why aperture-style iron sights work on rifles).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Don't most FPS games have progressive reticule bloom for automatic weapons?

Yup. Its a CoF system that starts off very accurate, but it requires recoil control and trigger discipline, along with knowing the weapon's own limitations. Typically burst firing is best to achieve the highest degree of accuracy. The same should basically apply to this game. The more guns you fire at once, the less accurate it is, the faster you fire, the less accurate you become over time.

[Chuck Jager]

Karl Streiger, on 02 November 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

If it is dependent on the number of weapons sure - if it uses other system like damage - nope

Take for example the Viper B - any reason to run it with a single ERPPC rather the usual array of tiny lasers?

Just a reminder we are already missing 2 balancing facts from Tt and have reduced a third - a bloom effect might simulate one of them, but range brackets and their effect on damage is still a complete loss (compare 6 ER Small Laser vs a single ERPPC in TT when target is at range 6

Many of the problems we have are from TT mechanics not working well in an online game that has every game being X individuals who want high damage. The pure number of mechs and possible loud outs would be a no go to most game designers.

[Karl Streiger]

Chuck Jager, on 02 November 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Many of the problems we have are from TT mechanics not working well in an online game that has every game being X individuals who want high damage. The pure number of mechs and possible loud outs would be a no go to most game designers.

Well only if you don't convert the whole rule package and the meaning of them

Start with armor and the hit table - by no means the number of plates should have used for a fps you should have normalized them by the probability of the hit tables and modified by their area.

Weapons 5+5 = 10 another mistake - Rule of thumb when I have a weapon that has 5 damage it should rather hit 3-4 times to deal the same damage as a weapon that deals 10.

Of course the damage numbers needed to be tweaked by range brackets and rof

Speaking of range brackets a important piece of Tt balancing and it was ignored completely causing several issues

Well I could write a novel about this topic but this are some core issues

[N0ni]

Tristan Winter, on 02 November 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be the easiest thing in the world to cheat around the reticule bloom? Some kind of software that superimposes a crosshair over the game? Or use a magic marker?

Considering my monitor comes with 4 built-in crosshairs, the answer is yes... it would be the easiest thing in the world since it's already there at my fingertips.

[Greyhart]

Cone of Fire is not going to happen. there was a thread where it was explained that it would add too much additional delay into the system of hit reg.

But those complaining of RNG. The idea of cone of fire appears in almost every FPS on the market. It is present in all the esport shooters too. And the proposal has only ever been that it would occur when moving or taxing the system. Stand still keep cool and you have your pinpoint aim. Therefore the complaint about RNG is ridiculous

[a gaijin]

Quickly reading the OP I misread it and got this out of it: "what if triggering ghost heat caused our HUD and targeting reticle to disappear for a brief time due to the over exertion of energy drawn" and thought, "wow, that's both phuckt up and cool at the same time."