55 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Lukoi Banacek, on 04 November 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Not really (unfortunate that is). It just means folks need to take the weight class into consideration when considering average match score and modify their expectations accordingly.

Weight classes need viability and a role. They don't need to be equitable in dealing damage. That match score needs some adjustment to better reflect the role of lighter mechs is a different issue, but in the mean time folks need to learn how to interpret things in context. Clamoring for balance before first understanding the state of the game is a wasted exercise.

The problem is that killing enemy mechs is the most effective way to win in every MWO game mode. No respawns pretty much force this fact since the red team can't take objectives if they're all dead.

You would have to design really, really strange game modes that make it so a light mech running around in circles and pressing the R key has the same chance of winning as a KDK-3 slaughtering everything. And besides that, you'd also have to find a way to make running around in circles pressing the R key be as FUN as gunning down every enemy you see.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FupDup, on 04 November 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

The problem is that killing enemy mechs is the most effective way to win in every MWO game mode. No respawns pretty much force this fact since the red team can't take objectives if they're all dead.

You would have to design really, really strange game modes that make it so a light mech running around in circles and pressing the R key has the same chance of winning as a KDK-3 slaughtering everything. And besides that, you'd also have to find a way to make running around in circles pressing the R key be as FUN as gunning down every enemy you see.

I think you could very easily adjust average match score to increase contributions that tend to fall into the hands of light pilots or infotech related items. Regardless, I've never said that damaging/killing/outfighting shouldn't be the pre-eminent factor in determining match score and I don't believe balance necessarily means every weight class is as good at that function ingame.

Each weight class needs a viable role, a niche that helps the team win. But in the end, the fight will usually determine the outcome. The bulk of mechs will always be fighters, the niche roles will always remain less populated as they are by definition not the main item of consideration.

So, consider what a light pilot does in the context of that lesser damage dealing capability and afford them the due consideration for that disparity and that's reasonable. But for those clamoring for equity between the weight classes in the form of damage dealing capability, they are going to remain unsatisfied I'm sure.

[Tristan Winter]

FupDup, on 04 November 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

The problem is that killing enemy mechs is the most effective way to win in every MWO game mode. No respawns pretty much force this fact since the red team can't take objectives if they're all dead.

You would have to design really, really strange game modes that make it so a light mech running around in circles and pressing the R key has the same chance of winning as a KDK-3 slaughtering everything. And besides that, you'd also have to find a way to make running around in circles pressing the R key be as FUN as gunning down every enemy you see.

You forget that light mechs also have other very entertaining role warfare abilities, such as:

• Shooting down UAVs
  
• Following the assaults to provide ECM cover
  
• Following the assaults to provide AMS cover

There is much fun to be had as a light mech player in this game.

[FupDup]

Tristan Winter, on 04 November 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

You forget that light mechs also have other very entertaining role warfare abilities, such as:

• Shooting down UAVs
  
• Following the assaults to provide ECM cover
  
• Following the assaults to provide AMS cover

There is much fun to be had as a light mech player in this game.

All of which can be done by other mechs.

[Mystere]

Hmm. There were 56,774 players for the season of which only 28,250 played an average of 1 or more drops a day.

I'll just leave to everyone what that means for the health and financial viability of the game.

Edited by Mystere, 04 November 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 04 November 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

All of which can be done by other mechs.

We're supposed to support Assaults... the best "anchors" of the game!

No reason to NOT escort that sniping Dire Wolf in the distance... because you know... SNIPING!

[War Beast]

Awesome analysis !

Do you have the data ability to also have breakdowns for the top 1% of each class ? Light pilots, etc ?

Those would be really nice, since as noted trying to score a primarily light pilot vs a heavy or assault can really skew where people stand.

TY.

[Weeny Machine]

Deathlike, on 04 November 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

We're supposed to support Assaults... the best "anchors" of the game!

No reason to NOT escort that sniping Dire Wolf in the distance... because you know... SNIPING!

Good point. At the same time you can also support the LRM Atlas next to the sniping DW

[Jman5]

It's worth pointing out that as with the Season 2 data, Matchscore continues to be horrifically weight class biased across all skill levels.

This is awful because our entire matchmaker system is completely reliant matchscore.
How can you have a functional matchmaker like this? On the one hand, people who play light mechs are having their PSR artificially depressed, on the other hand assault pilots get artificially inflated scores?

If that weren't bad enough, they're also getting shafted on cbill earnings.

PGI needs to seriously fix the matchscore bias and then adjust PSR. I don't know how much more clear it can be when you have 70% of your assault players scoring on par with the top 20% of lights.

This isn't a debate or an opinion. This is a fact. Matchscore has a strong chassis bias. If PGI wants to insist that every chassis is equal, then they need to adjust matchscore to find some way for lights to compete with every other chassis in matchscore. That could means adding new stats to the game that are things lights are good at and then working them into the matchscore system. It could mean taking existing stats and adding them to the matchscore count, or adjusting existing ones. Or they could just give smaller mechs a handicap bonus.

Edited by Jman5, 04 November 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Jman5, on 04 November 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

It's worth pointing out that as with the Season 2 data, Matchscore continues to be horrifically weight class biased across all skill levels.

This is awful because our entire matchmaker system is completely reliant matchscore.
How can you have a functional matchmaker like this? On the one hand, people who play light mechs are having their PSR artificially depressed, on the other hand assault pilots get artificially inflated scores?

If that weren't bad enough, they're also getting shafted on cbill earnings.

PGI needs to seriously fix the matchscore bias and then adjust PSR. I don't know how much more clear it can be when you have 70% of your assault players scoring on par with the top 20% of lights.

The reason the the matchscore is "biased" because...

Light mechs...
1. have a lower alpha / dps than heavies and assaults
2. usually have to get close to the enemy to use their weapons
3. carry less armour
4. their only assets speed and agility got negated by re-sizing most light mechs to huge proportions (even an evading bar door is a barn door) plus giving heavies and assaults bloated agility quirks

Now add the insane alphas/dps of heavies and assaults (plus a shitload of whining when they get killed by a light mech) and ask yourself how in the world a light mech is supposed to be remotely en par

Edited by Bush Hopper, 04 November 2016 - 02:32 PM.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 04 November 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

The problem is that killing enemy mechs is the most effective way to win in every MWO game mode. No respawns pretty much force this fact since the red team can't take objectives if they're all dead.

You would have to design really, really strange game modes that make it so a light mech running around in circles and pressing the R key has the same chance of winning as a KDK-3 slaughtering everything. And besides that, you'd also have to find a way to make running around in circles pressing the R key be as FUN as gunning down every enemy you see.

Having 3 mech run after you, usualy heavies and meds, or them always looking the other way will win a match if your team is aggressive. Often times my team is too busy dickingaround to take the opportunity though.

Edited by DAYLEET, 04 November 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

DAYLEET, on 04 November 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Having 3 mech run after you, usualy heavies and meds, or them always looking the other way will win a match if your team is aggressive. Often times my team is too busy dickingaround to take the opportunity though.

They are not "dickingaround". They are SNIPING (see DW sniper and LRM Atlas some posts above hrhrhr)

[Jman5]

Bush Hopper, on 04 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

The reason the the matchscore is "biased" because...

Light mechs...
1. have a lower alpha / dps than heavies and assaults
2. usually have to get close to the enemy to use their weapons
3. carry less armour
4. their only assets speed and agility got negated by re-sizing most light mechs to huge proportions (even an evading bar door is a barn door) plus giving heavies and assaults bloated agility quirks

Now add the insane alphas/dps of heavies and assaults (plus a shitload of whining when they get killed by a light mech) and ask yourself how in the world a light mech is supposed to be remotely en par

The way I see it, it's not so much that we have to buff lights, or nerf assaults. It's that we need to be rewarding lights for the things they do well. Lights provide all this utility to a team that just gets ignored, or under-rewarded when it comes to matchscore. Even better would be to add new support rewards that a small, fast mech might be good at.

Where is my matchscore reward for capturing points in conquest? Where is my reward for providing ECM cover to my teammates? Where is my reward for my triple AMS kitfox shooting down enemy LRMs? Where is my reward for Flaming the enemy team into overheating. How can you improve the Flanking bonus because that is one thing fast lights excel at?

Lights can be a tremendous asset to their team, it's the scoring system that needs to be changed to reflect that.

[Appogee]

Thanks for sharing this.

PGI really need to separate PUG and Group Queue stats for the stats to become more meaningful.

(I spent the whole of this year levelling all my unused Mechs in the PUG queue. At time of writing all 255 Mechs I own are Basiced, and only 30 variants remain to be Elited.)

I was toying with the idea of going full meta in Season 5 to see how well I could do on the leaderboard. But that's probably a recipe for insanity.

[Lyoto Machida]

Appogee, on 04 November 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Thanks for sharing this.

PGI really need to separate PUG and Group Queue stats for the stats to become more meaningful.

(I spent the whole of this year levelling all my unused Mechs in the PUG queue. At time of writing all 255 Mechs I own are Basiced, and only 30 variants remain to be Elited.)

I was toying with the idea of going full meta in Season 5 to see how well I could do on the leaderboard. But that's probably a recipe for insanity.

Hah...I'm going LRMs only this season/month but may wait until December to do it. Only played last night so far and quit after two games...not sure I can LRM for a month straight.

[Weeny Machine]

Jman5, on 04 November 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

The way I see it, it's not so much that we have to buff lights, or nerf assaults. It's that we need to be rewarding lights for the things they do well.

The only thing a light can do SOMEWHAT better (fast mediums can do this as well) is fast re-positioning. The rest is usually done better by other mech classes

Lights have no real role of their own. Sorry.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 04 November 2016 - 03:33 PM.

[Remains Intact]

Didn't play s4, but using s3 stats for comparison, being in the top 3-10% in all categories as a casual soloist feels good man. It's too bad they don't have a separate database for groups vs solo.

[El Bandito]

I'm ranked at #67 in season 4? That's when I piloted the KDK-3 for extended period of time. Another proof that KDK-3 is OP.

[a gaijin]

Deathlike, on 04 November 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's good to know "half" of the players on the leaderboard play on average at least "1 game a day".

I mean... that's "retention" for you.

How many games a day do you play?

[Ghogiel]

Tad unfair not to split the overall ranked list by weight class.

players who play more light and meds are getting lumped into a list against players spending most of thier matches in assaults like the KDK3. The data in this very spread sheet is clearly showing matchscore is skewed towards the top end of the weight distribution

Edited by Ghogiel, 06 November 2016 - 03:05 PM.