25 replies to this topic

[Inner Sphincter]

Hi all. I am trying to master the sniping skill. For that purpose I had chosen a Shadowcat witn ECM+ERPPC, so I keep off the battle 45 tons to the team (not a big loss if I fail).
But the question is about tonnage and mech to use for make a sniper.
I mean...
I had in team a KDK with 9x med lasers, 2x SSRM6, sniping with a Gauss.
then I had a DWF with 2x LB/20 and a SSRM6 sniping with 2x LgLasers.
Last game I played with a mate that used a Gargoyle with 6x med lasers sniping with a Gauss.

I think that 80/100 tons to have a sniper are really too much. In my opinion snipers should be light mechs, something that doesen't make the team to miss U. But if U use 100 tons and then stay out of battle to snipe, In my opinion U damage your own mates...

If we consider that KDK and DWF had a great short range firepower, I think those players really mistaken everything...

Pls help me to understand and give me some advices to improve sniping skill, thx.

[OMCBOONE]

I have been using the summoner or any other mech which has nice quirks for er ppc's. PPC velocity, cooldown, and the likes.. When comparing a mech with no ppc quirks vrs one that has.. Its a big difference.

Also having a mech with Jump Jets and high torso mounts helps alot so you can pop tart. I know some Black Jacks are quirked for PPC.
pew pew pew

As far as the team not missing you. My best sniping match in Summoner was 1100 with only 2 erppc.. we had a good team but i was poptarting and wasnt missing many shots.

Good luck and Have Fun

Edited by OMCBOONE, 04 November 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

In the low tiers you'll see lots of bad moves when you spectate. People often don't know what they are doing and will use builds that have bad synergy and then not use them to their maximum effectiveness.

That said, sniping is rather common in all classes. Assaults and Heavies are rather good snipers while lights and mediums are mostly just harassers. Assaults can often bring 2 gauss and 2 ERPPC and heavies can usually bring one of 1 and 2 of the other. Other assaults will bring a gauss and lasers such as your Gargoyle friend if they lack tonnage, Gargoyle can't do much good, but that's one way to run it. Anyway, most assault snipers are built to do 50 damage or more at mid to long range and break off sections of mechs quickly. High tier coordinated teams will often have multiple snipers so they can focus on one target and remove them from play with a single volley.

Lights and mediums often don't have the cooling or the tonnage required to bring high powered sniping loadouts and often stick to harassing. Its basically the same thing but with a load more repositioning, flanking, annoying the enemy, and refiring. You won't be taking anyone out quickly, but you can distract enemies by chipping bits of armor off them over and over again causing them to either stop focusing on your allies and target you or have their rear armor taken out, putting them between a rock and a hardplace metaphorically, and sometimes literally.

Assault and Heavy snipers should stick with the team formation (or the team should stick with them to protect) while medium and light snipers should flank the enemy to pull fire off the main force.

[HauptmanT]

Assaults should always be on the front line... ALWAYS. They have the armor, and it is needed up front. This is why people call LRM Atlas pilots potatoes. As in as smart as. If you see your stalkers, kodiaks, and atlii sitting in the back, sniping or lurming, you are going to lose. It's just that basic.

Heavies you can get away with it, but it still isnt recomended, if you dont want to hamper the team too badly.

So LRM boats should be made from mediums, and snipers out of lights. But you'll likely still provide a better benefit if you get in there and brawl with the team.

Now I use the Hunchback IIc for both roles. 4 ER Large lasers, or 4 LRM 15s. But I'll be honest, I cant match the damage numbers my Hellbringer with 2 LRM20s can put out with more tubes on the Hunchback. ECM is just godlike. Lets you pick out your targets and keep line of sight without being open to return fire. You cant rely on pick-ups to keep targets locked long enough otherwise.

Now just tonight I just did 1200 damage with 2 PPCs on my Timberwolf. Never have I done that with the HBK. With those kinds of numbers nobody was mad at me for hanging (in the enemies) rear sniping in a heavy. But we still did lose, because some medium had to take shots for me, and couldnt do it as well. But the HBK wouldnt have the speed for that sort of flank attack, and still have the tonnage for the PPCs and computer.

Now when it comes to PPC sniping... you want some quirks... and USE a clan computer for even more velocity. Taking one less PPC for a mark 6 computer will get you better numbers. I've got 4 PPCs on my Warhawk, though I dont really snipe with it for long, I've never done more than 700 in a match. Half the PPCs and twice the damage, just because targeting computer on the Timberwolf. They are that good. For inner sphere, you just use quirks. And some mechs have great quirks.
But imagine a computer and good quirks on a clanner. You can double the PPC velocity in the right machine.

[xe N on]

HauptmanT, on 04 November 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Assaults should always be on the front line... ALWAYS. They have the armor, and it is needed up front. This is why people call LRM Atlas pilots potatoes. As in as smart as. If you see your stalkers, kodiaks, and atlii sitting in the back, sniping or lurming, you are going to lose. It's just that basic.

That is wrong. Assaults die as fast as any other mech if focused by more than 2 mechs at once. And in higher tiers and group play there is focused damage. While faster mechs can easily retreat if they maneuver in a bad position, most assaults cannot. Driving assaults mean to be carefully and though-full. Assaults bring most of the DPS and firepower of a team and therefore must be protected under all circumstances.

Quote

So LRM boats should be made from mediums, and snipers out of lights. But you'll likely still provide a better benefit if you get in there and brawl with the team.

LRM boats should made from nothing. LRM boats are generally bad. Mediums are good as harassers and flankers and sometimes exceptional brawlers.

Quote

Now I use the Hunchback IIc for both roles. 4 ER Large lasers, or 4 LRM 15s. But I'll be honest, I cant match the damage numbers my Hellbringer with 2 LRM20s can put out with more tubes on the Hunchback.

Hunchy II is one of the best snipers. Using 2-ERPPCs with 4 jump jets is like having again the old days of poptaring. I scored already 1300 damage and 4 kills with this thing ... not even elited.

Edited by xe N on, 05 November 2016 - 12:44 AM.

[ice trey]

On the one hand, sniping is definitely a helpful thing for your team, especially as both sides are still making the approach.

On the other, There are more than a few players trying to be snipers, especially those using Shadowcats, Phoenix Hawks, and Ravens... that run away from the team to go off and do their own thing. Most of the time, that's a handicap - rather than a help to the team.

For one, you're taking the ECM bubble away from the team and keeping it for yourself
Second, by making yourself a pain in the butt to find and attack, the enemy team goes off to dump their damage into 11 mechs instead, leaving the rest of the team at a handicap.
Third, compared to brawler builds, while you ARE putting damage into things, you're also not putting as much damage into things, especially with PPC/Laser builds with slow recycle times.

What you often end up seeing is the one player with a sniper mech being the last one to die in a match... but that also means that the rest of their team is dead - not because of the 1337 5|<177Z of the sniper, but because they abandoned the rest of their teammates in order to take advantage of distracted opponents and tally up the highest damage they could.

So yeah, it's cool if you want to be a sniper, but please don't be the jerk who sacrifices their teammates to rack up high damage counts.

[Besh]

ice trey, on 05 November 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

On the one hand, sniping is definitely a helpful thing for your team, especially as both sides are still making the approach.

On the other, There are more than a few players trying to be snipers, especially those using Shadowcats, Phoenix Hawks, and Ravens... that run away from the team to go off and do their own thing. Most of the time, that's a handicap - rather than a help to the team.

For one, you're taking the ECM bubble away from the team and keeping it for yourself
Second, by making yourself a pain in the butt to find and attack, the enemy team goes off to dump their damage into 11 mechs instead, leaving the rest of the team at a handicap.
Third, compared to brawler builds, while you ARE putting damage into things, you're also not putting as much damage into things, especially with PPC/Laser builds with slow recycle times.

What you often end up seeing is the one player with a sniper mech being the last one to die in a match... but that also means that the rest of their team is dead - not because of the 1337 5|<177Z of the sniper, but because they abandoned the rest of their teammates in order to take advantage of distracted opponents and tally up the highest damage they could.

So yeah, it's cool if you want to be a sniper, but please don't be the jerk who sacrifices their teammates to rack up high damage counts.

I am having limited experience as a "Sniper", piloting 2PPC or 2LPLas SCT . It IS a thin Line to walk . I sometimes get accused of "hanging back" too much, or wanting to "abuse my Team to tank" for me so I can rack dmg .

Though what I DO mostly is:

Spotting .
Diverting/Drawing fire .
Soften up enemies.
Fire support in otherwise 1v1 or 2v1 Situations .
Spot/take out enemy UAVs .
Supressions as well as, occasionally, even area control/denial .

...oh, and running .

Mostly when I get critisized, it is by people/a Team who evaporated within 3, 4 mins. of the Match and are angry about me being almost untouched . Pure Genius . While those guys were busy rushing into the enemy mindlessly and subsequently getting slaughtered, I was still busy moving around, finding a good position/angle, and hopefully spot enemy movement without being seen .

One thing though, when playing a Sniper : NEVER hesitate to close in when it can make a difference . To hang back/hide doing nothing, while your appearance closer to the actual fight could make the difference between win or loss, is lame in my Book .

Though then again...sometimes, your Team will not even fight/live long enough for you to be able to make a difference XD . Be prepared that you - the "useless, unharmed, cowardly Sniper" - may then get abused as their scapegoat .

Edited by Besh, 05 November 2016 - 03:09 AM.

[jss78]

Without going into specific 'mechs, I've always felt sniping is something best done in relatively light 'mechs, maybe 35-55 tons.

Your modus operandi is to use cover and fire from safe locations, and not get hit. Why bring heavy-assault class armour for the job -- that armour should be on the front line. Also an effective sniper needs really good ability to relocate, to find best and safest firing angles as the enemy repositions. This to me calls for speed and lots of JJ's.

Back as a new player, I racked up about 500 games running the Shadow Hawk 2K with 3xERLL in the left shoulder mount. It always worked ludicrously well, though I was in low Elo (and later PSR) games at the time. Due to the ridiculously good positioning of the ERLL's, next to one side of your head, you'd basically only expose your shoulder when firing. Good times, though I've kind of grown to view ERLL spam as a pedestrian play style.

Spoiler

humblebrag

Edited by jss78, 05 November 2016 - 03:30 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

I prefer a fast medium or light for sniping. I usually use a long range shadowcat, or Raven for the job. They can cause a lot of disruption especially if you can get to the enemy before they regroup and are in their effective range. Once the main scrap starts, played right, you can takeaway cover from the enemy and make them feel like they are constantly under pressure. You want to attack from the sides, the back, constantly re-positioning.

If you're going to use a heavy or assault, they are effective at shutting people down from peeking at your front line as they can have quite massive alphas at range. But won't have the maneuverability to reposition as effectively. They will also draw a lot of fire as they are big juicy targets. Best to stick on the flanks so you're not having shots blocked by close range mechs on your team, or find a position of over-watch to punish enemy peekers.

To people that say they are a detriment to the team, don't listen to them. They don't even know. Dedicated brawlers are far less of a threat when they already have a couple tons of armor stripped off in free damage by snipers. So many times when I "go of on my own" in my shadowcat, I'm on the enemy before they regroup and have their backs open, with components going down. From experience playing my heavies and assaults, this is the most annoying thing having those mechs behind you that you can't get a beat on. Its really distracting when you're trying to focus on the front and you have to protect your rear from a ghost on the horizon.

At the end of the day, yes I'm usually the last one alive, but it's usually because players do not react to the enemies movement even when called out. They nascar and place themselves so close too the enemy in the name of aggression, there is no option to re-position. No patience, no retreat, no options, no hope.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 05 November 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Imo JJ mediums make the best snipers - tonnage for heatsinks and a decent number of JJs but enough speed to reposition. ECM is a huge plus because it means you arent creating an obvious red dorito every time you peek.

My current favourite is the Shadow Cat with 2xERPPC and ECM, plus 3-4 DHS. Its hot and very low dps but absurdly mobile (MASC is amazing). The Hunchback-IIC-A with 2xERPPC and a lot more DHS is probably better due to heat endurance though.

If there was a 55 ton clan medium battlemech with JJs, MASC and ECM i would probably never play another mech lol. I dont think there is, sadly.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 November 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Zibmo]

Space Oddity, on 04 November 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Hi all. I am trying to master the sniping skill. For that purpose I had chosen a Shadowcat witn ECM+ERPPC, so I keep off the battle 45 tons to the team (not a big loss if I fail).
But the question is about tonnage and mech to use for make a sniper.
I mean...
I had in team a KDK with 9x med lasers, 2x SSRM6, sniping with a Gauss.
then I had a DWF with 2x LB/20 and a SSRM6 sniping with 2x LgLasers.
Last game I played with a mate that used a Gargoyle with 6x med lasers sniping with a Gauss.

I think that 80/100 tons to have a sniper are really too much. In my opinion snipers should be light mechs, something that doesen't make the team to miss U. But if U use 100 tons and then stay out of battle to snipe, In my opinion U damage your own mates...

If we consider that KDK and DWF had a great short range firepower, I think those players really mistaken everything...

Pls help me to understand and give me some advices to improve sniping skill, thx.

People are afraid to nick their paint jobs. No push in most tiers any more.

I have no objection to having a couple of long range weapons on a brawler - not every fight is within 300M and it's nice to soften targets up for when they are actually in range.

I just object when that's ALL the assaults do.

[Monkey Lover]

Lol so you're sniping and you wonder why assaults don't cover the front? Really.... Pug land assaults get no support because everyone else is hiding and sniping.

This why pugs get rolled when a good team pushes them . Then we see match maker sucks posts haha

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

xe N on, on 05 November 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

That is wrong. Assaults die as fast as any other mech if focused by more than 2 mechs at once. And in higher tiers and group play there is focused damage. While faster mechs can easily retreat if they maneuver in a bad position, most assaults cannot. Driving assaults mean to be carefully and though-full. Assaults bring most of the DPS and firepower of a team and therefore must be protected under all circumstances.


LRM boats should made from nothing. LRM boats are generally bad. Mediums are good as harassers and flankers and sometimes exceptional brawlers.


Hunchy II is one of the best snipers. Using 2-ERPPCs with 4 jump jets is like having again the old days of poptaring. I scored already 1300 damage and 4 kills with this thing ... not even elited.

I just want to directly say thanks for posting exactly what I was thinking so I didn't have to type it up myself.

I mean, the guy you quoted was saying how assaults should be thrown into the meatgrinder while talking about how good an LRM20 Hellbringer is. Why throw all your firepower away early game? If anything if there is a push the assaults should be behind the mediums and able to fire over them, heavies mixed in with the assaults, lights should be behind the enemy lines shooting rear armor and turning focus fire away from the heavier targets and killing those who try to keep firing on target.

HauptmanT, on 04 November 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Now just tonight I just did 1200 damage with 2 PPCs on my Timberwolf. Never have I done that with the HBK. With those kinds of numbers nobody was mad at me for hanging (in the enemies) rear sniping in a heavy. But we still did lose, because some medium had to take shots for me, and couldnt do it as well. But the HBK wouldnt have the speed for that sort of flank attack, and still have the tonnage for the PPCs and computer.

Now when it comes to PPC sniping... you want some quirks... and USE a clan computer for even more velocity. Taking one less PPC for a mark 6 computer will get you better numbers. I've got 4 PPCs on my Warhawk, though I dont really snipe with it for long, I've never done more than 700 in a match. Half the PPCs and twice the damage, just because targeting computer on the Timberwolf. They are that good. For inner sphere, you just use quirks. And some mechs have great quirks.
But imagine a computer and good quirks on a clanner. You can double the PPC velocity in the right machine.

The main thing with PPC sniping that people need is a fast mech. Warhawks are able to hold 4 PPCs at once and have quirks for it even, but they just aren't as viable as a Timber Wolf, Hunchback IIC, or Summoner because they are slower. They have more firepower but fewer moments they get to use it and they have to expose more of themselves than the others because their mounts aren't as high. Timber Wolf, Hunchback IIC, and Summoner also can have jump jets, giving them poptarting ability to further the amount of trade options. Also a Hunchback IIC would be able to move faster than your Timber Wolf, jump higher, have two ERPPCs, a large targetting computer, and decent cooling. Build below.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3c7e31ab4ca67ea

The main think people do need to realize is that mediums and lights are more expendable than an assault. You want to cut your losses as much as possible, but if you lost something would you rather lose a 50 ton Centurion or a 100 ton Atlas? One of those can do so much more than the other. Lights can tank a load of damage without actually taking hits, assaults are rarely missed when under fire, why waste valuable armor and firepower for the team?

Lastly, if you lose a match while having over 1200 damage yourself, its because the team failed to properly take out enemies. 1200 damage is enough to kill a whole assault lance and more, if your team couldn't take advantage of a situation like that then they failed to properly focus fire and take out weakened targets. They also failed to properly reduce the damage they take either by out ranging, making favorable trades, or by pushing with enough overwhelming force that the enemy is overwhelmed and unable to focus fire properly.

Brawling ends up as one of the more basic tactics that also has a considerable risk and relies on the enemy team not having disciplined focus fire. A brawl attempt is easily squashed by a firing line and focus fire. If the brawl can send the enemy team into chaos then they've already lost. Its great for pub stomping if anything, especially if you get a group of randoms in solo queue to actually listen to directions. But people need to know that for a brawl to work effectively against high tier competition they will need cover to get close and they will need to cycle out the front line. Don't put the assaults up front, as they'll be focus fired down right when they are seen and others moving infront of them won't protect them from enemy fire. Instead have the mediums, small heavies, etc move forward first, then move back inline with the assaults. By this point the enemy team will be pretty bruised and your team should have a lance of nearly fresh assault mechs, guaranteeing victory.

Complexity in this "thinking man's shooter" goes up as the competition of the enemy team goes up. Its an arms race, but for the most part the normal queues are fighting with sticks and stones.

[WarPickle]

Don't listen to the morons who think all assaults should be upfront!

Just because the CLASS is assault doesn't make them all brawlers.....

There are different ROLES in the CLASSES..... some people just can't grasp that concept. Some assaults are brawlers, some are support and some are snipers.

Same for all the CLASSES... lights... the cheetah is a great brawler.... Raven is great for support/sniping.... locust is awesome for harrassing.....you wouldn't brawl in a locust unless you are mentally deficient... again different ROLES in one CLASS...

Don't worry about everyone else just do your thing and play... have fun.. if you can't manage that go play minecraft or something

[Ghogiel]

Space Oddity, on 04 November 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Hi all. I am trying to master the sniping skill. For that purpose I had chosen a Shadowcat witn ECM+ERPPC, so I keep off the battle 45 tons to the team (not a big loss if I fail).
But the question is about tonnage and mech to use for make a sniper.
I mean...
I had in team a KDK with 9x med lasers, 2x SSRM6, sniping with a Gauss.
then I had a DWF with 2x LB/20 and a SSRM6 sniping with 2x LgLasers.
Last game I played with a mate that used a Gargoyle with 6x med lasers sniping with a Gauss.

I think that 80/100 tons to have a sniper are really too much. In my opinion snipers should be light mechs, something that doesen't make the team to miss U. But if U use 100 tons and then stay out of battle to snipe, In my opinion U damage your own mates...

If we consider that KDK and DWF had a great short range firepower, I think those players really mistaken everything...

Pls help me to understand and give me some advices to improve sniping skill, thx.

Assaults make as good an overwatch sniper as any mech, what you are witnessing in the examples you gave are potato underhive players. The thing about assaults is you have to dump fap tons of dmg on anything that is trying to trade with you so you effectively win the trade war because you out dmg and out armor anything else out there except other assaults.

Thing is with 2 ERLL or 1 gauss you'll just get smoked against anything else peeking at range against you.

Not to mention assaults have a overall vulnerability to poptarting meds and heavies picking it apart fairly quickly... unless it can consistantly punish those mechs with something like dual gauss.. which isn't all that simple when the other player is positioning, peeking and timing the shots well.

[thehiddenedge]

Can we please stop using the word sniping? It makes no sense in this game.There's overwatch, long range, and extreme long range, but sniping is just not a thing with how damage over range works in this game.

That being said, get a clan mech, slap some PPC's on it and there you go, one long range trading mech. Doesn't matter what weight class, be it a Myth Lynx, H2C, Nova, Summoner, Timber, or Kodiak, they are all pretty effective. Well the Myth Lynx caaan be, sometimes, when the mech stars align.

Always move with the team, even if you are slightly behind them. Don't be afraid to close, long range mechs certainly aren't suited towards a brawl, but even PPC's can wreck mechs up close if you are accurate.

Edited by thehiddenedge, 05 November 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Inner Sphincter]

Sry guys... I mean that I consider an assault mech more useful as a brawler or a tank (and don't tell me that a KDK dies as fast as any other mech xe N on).
However, I wanna say that if U wanna snipe with a DWF, don't build 2x LB-20, SSRM6 and 2x Lg lasers. Maybe better 2x Gauss or 2x ERPPC, if U wanna snipe...
In the end, I think that a Sniper has to be built a Sniper in every aspect. I find a waste of tonnage and a stupid tactic mount 2x LB-20 if U are intended to spend all the game sniping with 2x Lg Lasers....

[xe N on]

Space Oddity, on 05 November 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sry guys... I mean that I consider an assault mech more useful as a brawler or a tank (and don't tell me that a KDK dies as fast as any other mech xe N on).

In fact, I consider a skilled locust pilot against an average player tankier as the KDK. Tanking damage in MWO is not only armor, but also twisting damage across all parts and speed.

Brawlers need to be highly mobile to close the gap between the target and exploit situations to outmaneuver enemies. In addition, jump jets really can be the edge in brawl. Assaults are usually slow, usually cannot twist very fast and their jump jets are more for effect or to dampen a fall than for vertical moving.

Of course you can be successfully brawl as Assault that is a dedicated brawler by definition, as the Atlas. However, a Stalker or a Direwolf in brawl is a victim.

Edit: In addition, 80 ton assaults are just 5 ton heavier than 75 ton heavies and have barely more armor. It is simply wrong to generalize that all assaults are tankier than heavies.

Edit 2: Lets imagine 3 mechs with an average alpha of 45 focusing on an 100 ton assault. The front armor is around 114 + 62 internal. Lets assume the alpha strikes hits the center torso with 25% spread. That does around 100 damage (3 x 33) to the center armor of the 100 ton assault within the first seconds of engagement. It's armor is deeply red and won't survive another round.

Ok, a medium or heavy would have been destroyed at the very moment. But in the end it really doesn't matter. Successful brawling work only either by:

1) Harassing in quick engagements, alpha striking and redraw before the enemy group realisized what happens and can strike back

2) By pushing with as many mechs as possible to make it difficult for a larger group to focus one specific target and spread damage across multiple mechs.

Edited by xe N on, 05 November 2016 - 11:54 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Space Oddity, on 05 November 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sry guys... I mean that I consider an assault mech more useful as a brawler or a tank (and don't tell me that a KDK dies as fast as any other mech xe N on).

Well, I'm not XeNon, so I'll say it.

KDK dies not just as fast as any other mech, but faster. Think about it. Kodiak is a huge target known to bring high firepower and everyone and their grandma says its OP, it will be the first thing people will look to focus fire on. Once it moves into a brawl its going down in an instant the moment everyone looks at it and blows its huge CT right out of its chest. Same can be said about a Dire Wolf. Even Atlases often are the first to die in a brawl situation because everyone realizes its an Atlas and its close by so everyone gangs up on it.

At least with a Locust, Cheetah, or other fast small mech when under focus fire you have a chance to run and are a much harder target to hit and often can last longer if the enemy team doesn't have a whole lot of good shots with PPFLD.

[Besh]

Dakota1000, on 05 November 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Well, I'm not XeNon, so I'll say it.

KDK dies not just as fast as any other mech, but faster. Think about it. Kodiak is a huge target known to bring high firepower and everyone and their grandma says its OP, it will be the first thing people will look to focus fire on. Once it moves into a brawl its going down in an instant the moment everyone looks at it and blows its huge CT right out of its chest. Same can be said about a Dire Wolf. Even Atlases often are the first to die in a brawl situation because everyone realizes its an Atlas and its close by so everyone gangs up on it.

At least with a Locust, Cheetah, or other fast small mech when under focus fire you have a chance to run and are a much harder target to hit and often can last longer if the enemy team doesn't have a whole lot of good shots with PPFLD.

^nailed it .

Was just thinking to post something along those lines...