56 replies to this topic

[Besh]

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Games are not won that way.

Games are ONLY won that way .

Dmg,. done is the most useless stat . Who is the more valuable player to his team: the guy pouring 500 dmg into 3 different Targets, killing none, damaging one component or 2, or the guy doing 500 dmg. and killing 3 'Mechs with it ?

Damage needs to be EFFECTIVE damage to mean anything towards your Team's win . You can spray and pray all day long not doing much for your Team racking up high dmg. numbers, or you can aim at shoulders, Torsi, legs, and kill enemies quick and effectively, therefore being ready to attack the next Target .

The latter is the better .

Egg Fu, on 07 November 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Who's going to get the better match score the guy racking up lots of damage with STREAKS spreading damage all around even farming Heavies and stealing kills, or the guy with the Gauss just taking out center torsos?

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Yes, per match. Its the most accurate number for showing player participation. Any trash pilot can hold fire and kill steal.

Also, get the stupid "killsteal" notion out of your Head(s) . MW:O is a Teamsport. It does not TF matter who gets the kills . As long as the Team wins . As long as you fail to acknowledged/understand that, your behaviour in any given Match will inevitably be detrimental to your Team's win .

Edited by Besh, 07 November 2016 - 01:00 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Besh, on 07 November 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Games are ONLY won that way .

Dmg,. done is the most useless stat . Who is the more valuable player to his team: the guy pouring 500 dmg into 3 different Targets, killing none, damaging one component or 2, or the guy doing 500 dmg. and killing 3 'Mechs with it ?

Damage needs to be EFFECTIVE damage to mean anything towards your Team's win . You can spray and pray all day long not doing much for your Team racking up high dmg. numbers, or you can aim at shoulders, Torsi, legs, and kill enemies quick and effectively, therefore being ready to attack the next Target .

The latter is the better .

Also, get the stupid "killsteal" notion out of your Head(s) . MW:O is a Teamsport. It does not TF matter who gets the kills . As long as the Team wins . As long as you fail to acknowledged/understand that, your behaviour in any given Match will inevitably be detrimental to your Team's win .

Nope, winning and losing is drama. Drama is a crutch for bad players.

The best players don't even think.

Did you actually defend kill stealing? Really?

By the way I played on a rep team that didn't lose one game all season. Winning wasn't important because we knew we would win and so did everyone else. Our only competition was the rep team older than us from the same city, we made fun of them because we could probly have beaten them to. We told them so to. Fun times. I ended up playing games for both teams and not practicing at all. I was not a large player or even very skilled(played rugby(Vancouver Island rep team but couldnt go) and lacross(western Canadian finals) also), just extremely fast and tough. A + player.

I only seen one player ever skate the way I did and that's Pavel Burie. No side ways movement. Side ways movement is a waste that most hockey players do even in the NHL which is sad. Cant stand to watch lately. Bunch of bumbs playing dump and chase because none of them is fast enough to carry. I was never stopped from crossing the blue line with the puck even once, honestly wasn't that good with it after that. Played to many sports, was working to now and then.

I did get outrun in Rugby once though. It was the second match the same day and my knee had a bandage on it from gravel on the field. Their winger was fast and had a head start and got a try.

Best way to tackle in rugby is to let the guy drive himself right into the ground, with help of course. Its brutal.

Edited by Johnny Z, 07 November 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[MrJeffers]

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

The best players win.

FTFY.

[Ghogiel]

meteorol, on 07 November 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Damage is the most significant value to define average matchscore iirc. So people with high average matchscore are dealing high average damage.

Not totally true for CW.

One player can sit back do 1k dmg and not share armor and be on their first mech at the end and basically have double the match score a player who hustled he same dmg and kills etc but died.

You can even out matchscore a player with well over 3k dmg who died 3 times by simply doing 1k dmg not dieing.

In light of that fact the OP has a point and an average dmg per match for the CW leaderboard wouldn't go amiss.

Edited by Ghogiel, 07 November 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[Besh]

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Nope, winning and losing is drama. Drama is a crutch for bad players.

The best players don't even think.

Did you actually defend kill stealing? Really?

By the way I played on a rep team that didn't lose one game all season. Winning wasn't important because we knew we would win and so did everyone else. Our only competition was the rep team older than us from the same city, we made fun of them because we could probly have beaten them to. We told them so to. Fun times.

Can you read ? Or comprehend ?

I was making the point that the notion of "killstealing" in itself is stupid in MW:O . This is a TeamGame . The faster a Target goes down, the better .

To illustrate: I usually thank people who come by when I am in a 1v1 Situation where I have the upper hand, and take the Target out before it can get one more shot at me . You would probably call it "killstealing" . To me, someone just saved me from taking more damage, and made me available to assist my Team somewhere else, and better at that cos I am less dmged as if I had to finish the Target alone .

"Killstealing" for me does not exist in MW:O . I call it assistance, and I am thankfull for it .

Edited by Besh, 07 November 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[Jman5]

It would be useful for the Faction Play leaderboard where Matchscore is so easily messed up.

[Mawai]

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Yes, per match. Its the most accurate number for showing player participation. Any trash pilot can hold fire and kill steal.

I wonder when people will realize that in a TEAM game there is NO SUCH THING AS KILL STEALING.

It is a TEAM game. The objective (for most folks) is to WIN the GAME. This is done by KILLING the OPPONENTS as QUICKLY as possible. This means that EVERYONE should be firing at the weakest component of their weakest opponents until they are done ... rinse and repeat.

In an RPG, experience is sometimes awarded for getting the kill. Unjustifiably earning experience by finishing off something that another player has mostly killed ... is kill stealing. Those are NOT team games unless you are working in a group and then experience is shared.

Bottom line ... if you think kill stealing exists in MWO then you aren't playing the same game as everyone else.

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Damage done is more accurate than win/loss for determining pilot skill. Kills ranks 2 or 3. Assists is like 4 or 5. Win/loss is important but hard to determine.

Unfortunately, this is not true unless you think Lurms are one of the more skillful weapons in the game?

The fact is that the best players will do focused damage that kills opponents ... this often requires LESS damage and not MORE.

Consider ... a match in a KDK-3 that does 1200 damage with 3 kills and 5 assists ... average of 150 damage/mech. A 100 ton assault only needs 186 damage to kill it through the center torso. 1200 damage is enough to more than solo kill 6 100 ton assault mechs. Bottom line is that maybe this pilot doesn't aim as well as he could though he does appear to effectively splatter damage all over his targets. Is he a skillful pilot? Certainly yes by your definition of more damage = more skill. I'd also refer you to some of the huge damage numbers regularly put up by LRM boats.

Finally, I've spectated in a few matches where folks put up 1000+ damage with kills and assists ... some of them were great pilots and some were just bad ... they sniped into melee from range using TBR or other mechs and racked up significant damage spread all over the place ... then when the other team went to kill them off they managed to get a number of kills because the opponents were all damaged from wiping out the rest of our team.

Bottom line ... in my opinion, damage != skill, in many cases.

Edited by Mawai, 07 November 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[Besh]

Johnny Z, on 07 November 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Damage done is more accurate than win/loss for determining pilot skill. Kills ranks 2 or 3. Assists is like 4 or 5. Win/loss is important but hard to determine.

This imho has some truth in it . If Player A needs to do 600 dmg. to take out an opponent, and player B - using the exact same 'Mech as player A, on the exact same opponent - needs only 200 dmg. to take said opponent out...then I would say player B is the more skilled Player .

In short: MORE dmg. done does NOT necessarily mean "better" or "more skilled" . It CAN mean the exact opposite ( ie. bad at aiming/spreading dmg. too much, using ineffective weapons etc.etc....) .

Edited by Besh, 07 November 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[Davegt27]

before the leader board lets say you where on TS with a team

there would always be that one guy that you never see but at the end every one notices his high damage output

for example

say someone from EMP I make the callout at the start of the match "kill the EMP" guy
someone says why
I respond because he is worth 2 of us

at the end of the match the proof is right there for everyone to see it might not be kills but its almost always high damage numbers

having damage on the leader board recognizes those players that are doing something

[Lyoto Machida]

Some of the points raised here would be moot if PGI just gave us more stats in general. It would be nice to see damage per kill, damage taken, etc without having to calculate or guess (in the case of damage taken). Also, split stats into QP/Group/CW.

Why is this so hard for PGI to do, when they already track the stats in question?

[Johnny Z]

Mawai, on 07 November 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

I wonder when people will realize that in a TEAM game there is NO SUCH THING AS KILL STEALING.

It is a TEAM game. The objective (for most folks) is to WIN the GAME. This is done by KILLING the OPPONENTS as QUICKLY as possible. This means that EVERYONE should be firing at the weakest component of their weakest opponents until they are done ... rinse and repeat.

In an RPG, experience is sometimes awarded for getting the kill. Unjustifiably earning experience by finishing off something that another player has mostly killed ... is kill stealing. Those are NOT team games unless you are working in a group and then experience is shared.

Bottom line ... if you think kill stealing exists in MWO then you aren't playing the same game as everyone else.



Unfortunately, this is not true unless you think Lurms are one of the more skillful weapons in the game?

The fact is that the best players will do focused damage that kills opponents ... this often requires LESS damage and not MORE.

Consider ... a match in a KDK-3 that does 1200 damage with 3 kills and 5 assists ... average of 150 damage/mech. A 100 ton assault only needs 186 damage to kill it through the center torso. 1200 damage is enough to more than solo kill 6 100 ton assault mechs. Bottom line is that maybe this pilot doesn't aim as well as he could though he does appear to effectively splatter damage all over his targets. Is he a skillful pilot? Certainly yes by your definition of more damage = more skill. I'd also refer you to some of the huge damage numbers regularly put up by LRM boats.

Finally, I've spectated in a few matches where folks put up 1000+ damage with kills and assists ... some of them were great pilots and some were just bad ... they sniped into melee from range using TBR or other mechs and racked up significant damage spread all over the place ... then when the other team went to kill them off they managed to get a number of kills because the opponents were all damaged from wiping out the rest of our team.

Bottom line ... in my opinion, damage != skill, in many cases.

Like I already said, end of match screen showing damage that each player did explains a lot of the match and often everything in the match. That is why its the most important number.

Edited by Johnny Z, 07 November 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Egg Fu]

Besh, on 07 November 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Also, get the stupid "killsteal" notion out of your Head(s) . MW:O is a Teamsport. It does not TF matter who gets the kills . As long as the Team wins . As long as you fail to acknowledged/understand that, your behaviour in any given Match will inevitably be detrimental to your Team's win .

My point would have been made better had I left out the word 'Kill Steal". Guess just tossed it in there because of how often I've haphazardly fired just one salvo of STREAKs into a mech already whittled down by others and got the kill. In such cases I've usually said lightheartedly over voip "sorry for stealing your kill", upon which occasionally they or someone else will reply back "Secured kill". It'll just all in fun. And you're right it doesn't really matter, better an enemy goes down as fast as possible.

Btw, in spite of having a negative reply to my use of the word 'kill steal' you still gave my post a like? I'll just assume that was accidental.

[Besh]

Egg Fu, on 07 November 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

My point would have been made better had I left out the word 'Kill Steal". Guess just tossed it in there because of how often I've haphazardly fired just one salvo of STREAKs into a mech already whittled down by others and got the kill. In such cases I've usually said lightheartedly over voip "sorry for stealing your kill", upon which occasionally they or someone else will reply back "Secured kill". It'll just all in fun. And you're right it doesn't really matter, better an enemy goes down as fast as possible.

Btw, in spite of having a negative reply to my use of the word 'kill steal' you still gave my post a like? I'll just assume that was accidental.

Nope, was not accidential . What you wrote shows pretty nicely why Dmg.done is not necessarily an accurate measure for "PlayerSkill" . I fully agree and like that. Just the KS notion made me quote it together with JohnnyZ's .

ps.: though one could ofc argue that, being right there at the xact moment when you can score the kill with your StreakCrow DOES require some skill . No irony !

Edited by Besh, 07 November 2016 - 02:07 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Mystere, on 07 November 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Personal damage numbers are unimportant to a skilled commander, winning is.

Doesn't matter how good a commander is if the grunts can't do the damage that the orders require, even if they follow them... Every 'skilled' commander knows this.

[MrJeffers]

DrxAbstract, on 07 November 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Doesn't matter how good a commander is if the grunts can't do the damage that the orders require, even if they follow them... Every 'skilled' commander knows this.

And every skilled commander knows that how the damage is applied is more important than the total damage number.
A player that can kill a fresh atlas by doing 200 points of damage is far more useful that the person that can't do it in less than 400 damage.

[Davers]

Besh, on 07 November 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

Can you read ? Or comprehend ?

I was making the point that the notion of "killstealing" in itself is stupid in MW:O . This is a TeamGame . The faster a Target goes down, the better .

To illustrate: I usually thank people who come by when I am in a 1v1 Situation where I have the upper hand, and take the Target out before it can get one more shot at me . You would probably call it "killstealing" . To me, someone just saved me from taking more damage, and made me available to assist my Team somewhere else, and better at that cos I am less dmged as if I had to finish the Target alone .

"Killstealing" for me does not exist in MW:O . I call it assistance, and I am thankfull for it .

Apparently "good players" don't think about winning or losing, but do think about kill stealing.

[Lyoto Machida]

MrJeffers, on 07 November 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

And every skilled commander knows that how the damage is applied is more important than the total damage number.
A player that can kill a fresh atlas by doing 200 points of damage is far more useful that the person that can't do it in less than 400 damage.

Damage per kill and damage taken per death would give us more insight into play styles and skill but this kind of stat tracking is unavailable in 2016, evidently.

[MrJeffers]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 November 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Damage per kill and damage taken per death would give us more insight into play styles and skill but this kind of stat tracking is unavailable in 2016, evidently.

Exactly. The damage number itself is irrelevant without context. LRM users get high damage per match, that doesn't make them good players.
W/L record is valid, even without context, especially in solo queue.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yes, it should.

KMDD per match should on there as well.

[DrxAbstract]

MrJeffers, on 07 November 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

And every skilled commander knows that how the damage is applied is more important than the total damage number.
A player that can kill a fresh atlas by doing 200 points of damage is far more useful that the person that can't do it in less than 400 damage.

That's kind of the step beyond the point I was making; I was referring to the people that can't deal damage reliably, whether it's 200 or 400.