26 replies to this topic

[NforceR_HUN]

Dear PGI / Fellow Mechwarriors!

TLDR: another whining post about clan meta builds and OP boating.

First of all, I am a dedicated IS warrior. Secondly I admit that I am most likely an avarage player. Yet I still get mad when i get killed by a clan mech opponent (sometimes tens of tons lighter) just because they can get 12-15 lasers on a medium mech. Or 6-8 srm6-es. The sheer fact that clan meds can have more fire power the IS assaults is a joke on it's own, but this becomes really fustrating in Scouting.

My advice is that omnimechs should have omni hardpoints like in MW4 instead of omnipods. Each clan mech wariant would have a mixed number of fix-typed hardpoints and omni hardpoints that can support any weapontype. I think this would make the game more balanced.


NforceR

[Bombast]

That fixes nothing (Omni-Hard Points would allow for the same kind of boating), requires an overhaul of the entire mechlab system (Which is basically the core of this game, from game play to balancing to, well, the spirit of the game), and an overhaul of the variant leveling system, and... well, that's it. A massive amount of work that fixes nothing.

And then, of course, there's the argument over whether this is a balance issue at all. It's not like OmniMechs are the best mechs in the game in every catagory... the Hunchback IIC and Kodiak are battlemechs, for example.

Edited by Bombast, 09 November 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

And if you think that loads of lasers makes a mech better, think again. Just like everyone else, omnimechs are limited by tonnage. Have too many lasers? You can bet they don't have enough heatsinks. Charge them, use flamers, force them to overheat. Their lasers are then worthless.

[1453 R]

The HBK-4P can mount nine lasers.

The ARC-5W can mount nine missile launchers - more than any Clan 'Mech in the game can possible carry.

The GRF-2N carries four missile launchers - only one less than the previously 'dominant' Stormcrow missile configuration's maximum count, and surpassed only by an esoteric Huntsman configuration that is slower than the Griffin and can't carry ECM.

Plenty of Sphere 'Mechs can compete with Clan 'Mechs for sheer hardpoint bloat. The only exception is the Nova, and you know what? A Nova (Prime) could still carry more lasers than any other 'Mech in the game even with MW4-style omni-hardpoints instead of MWO-style Omnipods.

This isn't a way to solve the remaining Sphere/Clan tech imbalance issues.

[Lily from animove]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Dear PGI / Fellow Mechwarriors!

TLDR: another whining post about clan meta builds and OP boating.

First of all, I am a dedicated IS warrior. Secondly I admit that I am most likely an avarage player. Yet I still get mad when i get killed by a clan mech opponent (sometimes tens of tons lighter) just because they can get 12-15 lasers on a medium mech. Or 6-8 srm6-es. The sheer fact that clan meds can have more fire power the IS assaults is a joke on it's own, but this becomes really fustrating in Scouting.

My advice is that omnimechs should have omni hardpoints like in MW4 instead of omnipods. Each clan mech wariant would have a mixed number of fix-typed hardpoints and omni hardpoints that can support any weapontype. I think this would make the game more balanced.


NforceR

much crying about not knowing much, those mechs being your issues are those who would stay your issue, like the NVA, it has just those 12 lasers by default. And no one throws 15 lasers on his mech, so exaggerate much?

you complained about exactly this in our match, yet I was there in a ferret, which doesn't come with 12 lasers.
You complained about the stupid clanmeta, because obviously my ferret is ultimately meta right?


you issue is in front fo your screen, thats all.

because some gyus in crabs and a centurion managed to win against us on river city.

then I told you to use a cent or HBK and you said you tried and nto working.

please do not blame "imbalance" when you cannot play the mechs propely, remember that FW is not having rating matchups you have to play with and vs the big boys so as an average player you won't have much fun there.

[NforceR_HUN]

Bombast, on 09 November 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

That fixes nothing (Omni-Hard Points would allow for the same kind of boating), requires an overhaul of the entire mechlab system (Which is basically the core of this game, from game play to balancing to, well, the spirit of the game), and an overhaul of the variant leveling system, and... well, that's it. A massive amount of work that fixes nothing.

And then, of course, there's the argument over whether this is a balance issue at all. It's not like OmniMechs are the best mechs in the game in every catagory... the Hunchback IIC and Kodiak are battlemechs, for example.

Not necessarily: you see if you have two or 3 omni hardpoints per mech and cannot swap pods you are then most likely limited to 6-8 weapons of the same type that is not uncommon for IS mechs either as others have mentioned.

[Bombast]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Not necessarily: you see if you have two or 3 omni hardpoints per mech and cannot swap pods you are then most likely limited to 6-8 weapons of the same type that is not uncommon for IS mechs either as others have mentioned.

Wait, are you talking about giving omnimechs battlemech style hardpoints?

And a 6-8 weapon limit... that's what most clan mechs carry anyway. Are you trying to institute wide scale rebalance just because of the Nova, one of the worst clan mechs in the game?

Edited by Bombast, 09 November 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[NforceR_HUN]

Lily from animove, on 09 November 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

much crying about not knowing much, those mechs being your issues are those who would stay your issue, like the NVA, it has just those 12 lasers by default. And no one throws 15 lasers on his mech, so exaggerate much?

you complained about exactly this in our match, yet I was there in a ferret, which doesn't come with 12 lasers.
You complained about the stupid clanmeta, because obviously my ferret is ultimately meta right?


you issue is in front fo your screen, thats all.

because some gyus in crabs and a centurion managed to win against us on river city.

then I told you to use a cent or HBK and you said you tried and nto working.

please do not blame "imbalance" when you cannot play the mechs propely, remember that FW is not having rating matchups you have to play with and vs the big boys so as an average player you won't have much fun there.

Yes, that was a particularly bad run for me. And as I have admitted in the first place I know i am an average player at best, no need to humiliate others publicly but thx. I may have exaggerated because i didn't count the number of lasers exactly. My problem in general is with the fast burst damage that these mechs can do compared to their weight is questionable... so its not cry about a particluar match, or those particular mechs.

Bombast, on 09 November 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Wait, are you talking about giving omnimechs battlemech style hardpoints?

And a 6-8 weapon limit... that's what most clan mechs carry anyway. Are you trying to institute wide scale rebalance just because of the Nova, one of the worst clan mechs in the game?

No, its not because of the nova, that was just an example..... I was thinking in general to avoid over boating in general. I see that my inital post may have been misleading, but my thought is about avoiding over boating in general.

Edited by NforceR_HUN, 09 November 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[NforceR_HUN]

1453 R, on 09 November 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

The HBK-4P can mount nine lasers.

The ARC-5W can mount nine missile launchers - more than any Clan 'Mech in the game can possible carry.

The GRF-2N carries four missile launchers - only one less than the previously 'dominant' Stormcrow missile configuration's maximum count, and surpassed only by an esoteric Huntsman configuration that is slower than the Griffin and can't carry ECM.

Plenty of Sphere 'Mechs can compete with Clan 'Mechs for sheer hardpoint bloat. The only exception is the Nova, and you know what? A Nova (Prime) could still carry more lasers than any other 'Mech in the game even with MW4-style omni-hardpoints instead of MWO-style Omnipods.

This isn't a way to solve the remaining Sphere/Clan tech imbalance issues.

Yes indivudal examples of one IS mech being better in one thing than the clans. btw i never said that the archer 5w is a good thing. it is also as bad as any other over boating in my perspective. My general problem is that by swapping omnipods clans can have ridiculously high burst damage relatively easily compared to the weight class of the mech.
I admit that clans SHOULD have better tech, that is part of the game. But that doesn't mean that a med mech should produce a burst damage of an assault.....

[Lily from animove]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yes, that was a particularly bad run for me. And as I have admitted in the first place I know i am an average player at best, no need to humiliate others publicly but thx. I may have exaggerated because i didn't count the number of lasers exactly. My problem in general is with the fast burst damage that these mechs can do compared to their weight is questionable...


No, its not because of the nova, that was just an example..... I was thinking in general to avoid over boating in general. I see that my inital post may have been misleading, but my thought is about avoiding over boating in general.

ultimately mechs are cappd by heat anyways so many hardpoints only help you dish out more damage at the bginning.but the tonnage invested in wepaons will be missing in cooling. it is a tradeoff not just "better"


And it's not about humiliating to post these stuff it is about some objectivity ebcasue when you make exaggerated posts about stuff and devs take this as feedbakc we do not need to wonder why buffhammers and nerfbats are often oversized. reasonable and objective discussion is whats needed to bring proper results in discussions.

[Bombast]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

No, its not because of the nova, that was just an example..... I was thinking in general to avoid over boating in general. I see that my inital post may have been misleading, but my thought is about avoiding over boating in general.

But boating isn't something typically attributed to omnimechs - EVERYTHING boats. Clan battlemechs, Inner Sphere battlemechs, omnimechs of all types (Only clan in MWO at the moment).

If your intention is to stop boating, then you are hilariously off base. You're aiming at the wrong target, and providing solutions that in no way stop the supposed problem. Just... way off in every conceivable way.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Have you ever considered the possibility that this is why a lot of IS mechs are quirked to the gills, and most Clan mechs are not?

[NforceR_HUN]

Bombast, on 09 November 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

But boating isn't something typically attributed to omnimechs - EVERYTHING boats. Clan battlemechs, Inner Sphere battlemechs, omnimechs of all types (Only clan in MWO at the moment).

If your intention is to stop boating, then you are hilariously off base. You're aiming at the wrong target, and providing solutions that in no way stop the supposed problem. Just... way off in every conceivable way.

well I'd say omnies can boat far more easily than IS (this doesn't mean that ALL omnies boat). This results in far greater burst damage than most IS of the same weight. This means all you need is a few good shots and your opponent drops. While IS players need to have more well placed shots to beat their opponents. Result easier to kill in clan mechs.
I'd like to state that i'm not saying that players in clan mechs are not good players because most of the time i get killed because: 1, I suck, 2, opponent is actually better. and that is fine.
but when you get killed by a far lighter opponent just because of what I described above, that is not fine.

Boogie138, on 09 November 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that this is why a lot of IS mechs are quirked to the gills, and most Clan mechs are not?

even with the best quirks the efficiancy of IS better is rarely match up to clan tech, but that is more or less ok bc as I said clans should have better tech up to some point. What quirks do not compensate for is the sheer number of weapons clans can have on their mechs....

[Bombast]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

well I'd say omnies can boat far more easily than IS (this doesn't mean that ALL omnies boat).

You'd be wrong though.

There's exceptions of course, but the simple fact is that the only limits to boating are hard points and heat generation. There's only a handful of chassis that don't have a variants with enough hardpoints to boat something, and the heat advantage is arguably split between Inner Sphere and clan mechs - Sometimes the superior DHS capacity of clan mechs makes them better, sometimes the lower ghost heat penalties of Inner Sphere mechs make them better.

The only boating advantage that omnimechs have is that they usually have more options as to what they can boat, while IS chassis usually only have the option of boating one. And that's a problem easily rectified - Just get in another chassis.

Quote

This results in far greater burst damage than most IS of the same weight.

Except for LRMs and autocannons. But even then, again, this has little to do with omnimechs. If you have a problem with clan damage, then take it up with clan tech, not omnimechs.

Quote

This means all you need is a few good shots and your opponent drops. While IS players need to have more well placed shots to beat their opponents. Result easier to kill in clan mechs.

Then why are you picking on omnimechs.

Quote

but when you get killed by a far lighter opponent just because of what I described above, that is not fine.

Weight does not equal a win. It never has and it never should.

Edited by Bombast, 09 November 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

well it is not just quriks, but weapon dynamics.
I could go into depth, but I am not going to do your homework for you. This has been discussed to no end on these forums.

Frankly, until Spring of this year I would say the Clan/IS balance was pretty damned good.

There are now some things that the IS does not have a direct answer or counter part too, but for the majority of those things it does not come down to hardpoint count. For example, IS has no viable heavy mechs that can pop-tart.

[NforceR_HUN]

Bombast, on 09 November 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

You'd be wrong though.

There's exceptions of course, but the simple fact is that the only limits to boating are hard points and heat generation. There's only a handful of chassis that don't have a variants with enough hardpoints to boat something, and the heat advantage is arguably split between Inner Sphere and clan mechs - Sometimes the superior DHS capacity of clan mechs makes them better, sometimes the lower ghost heat penalties of Inner Sphere mechs make them better.

The only boating advantage that omnimechs have is that they usually have more options as to what they can boat, while IS chassis usually only have the option of boating one. And that's a problem easily rectified - Just get in another chassis.



Except for LRMs and autocannons. But even then, again, this has little to do with omnimechs. If you have a problem with clan damage, then take it up with clan tech, not omnimechs.



Then why are you picking on omnimechs.



Weight does not equal a win. It never has and it never should.

Ominess are clantech.... so I don't see why you are differentiating. While I see the truth behind you post I feel like my point is not going through clearly. I will try again when I'm not tired maybe then i can articulate my argument better. I agre that piloting a heavier mech should not equal to victory over lighter opponents. And it is fine to get killed by a skilled pilot even in Atlas and even if your opponent is a Commando. What is not fine, when you engage a opponent that is like 30 ton lighter than you face-to-face and still get killed because that particular opponent has more fire power than you. not because better piloting, but sheer firepower advantage. This may sound controversial to what I wrote 2 lines above, but if you look deeper it is not. A heavier mech should, in general, have more firepower and armour and thus have better chances of defeating a lighter opponent.

[Bombast]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

Ominess are clantech.... so I don't see why you are differentiating.

Oh Christ, you don't even know what an Omnimech is.

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

What is not fine, when you engage a opponent that is like 30 ton lighter than you face-to-face and still get killed because that particular opponent has more fire power than you.

If this is happening that often, then I suspect your issue isn't that clan mechs carry too much firepower, but it's that you have too small of an engine and aren't effectively torso twisting.

[NforceR_HUN]

Bombast, on 09 November 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Oh Christ, you don't even know what an Omnimech is.



If this is happening that often, then I suspect your issue isn't that clan mechs carry too much firepower, but it's that you have too small of an engine and aren't effectively torso twisting.

From http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

"An OmniMech is a highly configurable (sub-)type of BattleMech developed by Clan Coyote during the Golden Century. OmniMechs mount some (or all) of their loadout in modular OmniMech-compatible OmniPods."

Omnies in this game are strictly used by clans only. Then by this logic it is clan tech.

AS for the other part: face to face stand down does not require a lot torso twist... But i get you point,

[Angel of Annihilation]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Dear PGI / Fellow Mechwarriors! TLDR: another whining post about clan meta builds and OP boating. First of all, I am a dedicated IS warrior. Secondly I admit that I am most likely an avarage player. Yet I still get mad when i get killed by a clan mech opponent (sometimes tens of tons lighter) just because they can get 12-15 lasers on a medium mech. Or 6-8 srm6-es. The sheer fact that clan meds can have more fire power the IS assaults is a joke on it's own, but this becomes really fustrating in Scouting. My advice is that omnimechs should have omni hardpoints like in MW4 instead of omnipods. Each clan mech wariant would have a mixed number of fix-typed hardpoints and omni hardpoints that can support any weapontype. I think this would make the game more balanced. NforceR

Well it is obvious your a IS pilot or you would realize that while you might be able to mount all those weapons, you won't be able to use them because of all the fracking heat they generate. Often as not, Clan weapons look more impressive on paper than they actually perform on the mech. I even did an entire post a while back pretty much proving that pound for pound, inch for inch, IS medium lasers are superior to Clan ER MLs. I am not going to post the entire topic again but the summary is that IS ML are cooler, faster firing and easier to concentrate damage with due to the shorter beam durations. Also when you count the extra heat sinks that the Clan mech must mount to cool its ER ML compared to the IS mech and its ML, you are generally also devoting significantly more weight and much more critical space on a weapon per weapons basis than when using IS weapons. Finally the shorter beam duration means that from a defensive perspective you end up a significantly shorter "face time" when engaging the enemy which in turns means you tend to take less damage when engaging the enemy.

This is before quirks are added to the equation which tend to make the IS weapons either cooler, fire faster and/or reduce the range advantage of Clan weapons significantly.

The point is, there is alot more balance between Clan and IS mechs and weapons than many people see or are willing to admit.

[Bombast]

NforceR_HUN, on 09 November 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

From http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

"An OmniMech is a highly configurable (sub-)type of BattleMech developed by Clan Coyote during the Golden Century. OmniMechs mount some (or all) of their loadout in modular OmniMech-compatible OmniPods."

Omnies in this game are strictly used by clans only. Then by this logic it is clan tech.

All (current) MWO omnimechs are clan tech. Not all clan mechs, however, are Omnimechs. There's a substantial difference, but those differences don't really have anything to do with what you've brought up in this thread.

Quote

AS for the other part: face to face stand down does not require a lot torso twist... But i get you point,

Face to face combat is exactly when torso twisting matters the most. The only time you shouldn't be twisting like a lunatic is when you have high rate-of-fire weapons like clan UA/Cs or Inner Sphere AC/2s. You should either be doing full twists to block with your arms, or be jiggling your torso around in 30-ish degree movements like you're working for tips.