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Let's Discuss Reasons For Canyon Network/hpg Manifold Popularity


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#41 Zibmo

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 08:41 PM

View Postjss78, on 10 November 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Can't add much: they're well balanced for all types of 'mechs, good FPS, good visibility.

I'd love another zero-atmosphere moonscape map using HPG art assets.

I'd presume if/when PGI updates them, it'll be a simple visuals touchup, as done with Crimson Strait. IMO they've shown pretty good judgement with the map upgrades thus far, the maps that really needed work got more of it.


So you believe forest colony and terra therma are improvements? They have gone all in on the Bawg map type. Low visibility, "noisy" air, lots of things to block progress.

Personally, I dread whenever they say, "We're going to improve xyz map."

#42 RestosIII

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 08:47 PM

View PostZibmo, on 11 November 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:


So you believe forest colony and terra therma are improvements? They have gone all in on the Bawg map type. Low visibility, "noisy" air, lots of things to block progress.

Personally, I dread whenever they say, "We're going to improve xyz map."


Personally I enjoy new TT. Miss the rock faces of old TT, but in general new TT (if they could get optimization right) is a better map IMO. Forest Colony though? I can't see jack on it due to the fog and my colorblindness, and I miss the cave. Mostly I just miss the cave.

#43 Exzander

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 09:36 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 11 November 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:


Personally I enjoy new TT. Miss the rock faces of old TT, but in general new TT (if they could get optimization right) is a better map IMO. Forest Colony though? I can't see jack on it due to the fog and my colorblindness, and I miss the cave. Mostly I just miss the cave.


That cave was incredible. That and I miss that it wasn't so absurdly huge that people would actually fight on different parts of the map.

In all seriousness, while I -generally- like the older versions of the reworked maps better, that's not to say the new ones are terrible. I personally believe that the reworked maps should have been added alongside the old, so that way there was a nice mix of the bigger maps and older maps.

Part of that is nostalgia, and part of that is I liked the smaller designs of the former maps.

I'm not sure how the maps would have been named, but I suppose we could have had something like "River City - Day", "River City - Night", and "River City - Expanded" or something like that. Same with the other maps.

#44 Requiemking

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 10:06 PM

Lots for me to cover here....

View PostLordNothing, on 10 November 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

grim plexus is kind of a missed opportunity. it doesnt carry over some of the sneakyness of grim portico. where you take the gates down and have an option between a campy side and a brawly side. the first time i played the map i had the enemy sneak up the shallow trench under ecm, and they just started coming out of the walls, i was amazed they could move up that way with so much stealth (probibly more tactics and execution, but the map did make it all possible). things like that were completely absent in plexus. bit outer walls that make fighting about then undesirable, then you get a big open area in the middile with very sparse cover. its not a place where you want to be if you were a brawler. its certainly better than polar, but not much better. if it would have had more of those secluded trenches like on the fp map, it would have been much better.


First of all, for a close-recon Light build, ECM is more of a hindrance than a help. Second, Portico(or Crystal hell as I call it) is easily one of the worst maps in CW. The area by the gates is a deathtrap for a push because of how easy it is to set up Brawlers there for an ambush. Seriously, a few well-placed Atlai and Krabs will decimate pretty much any push. Ditto if the Clans are on defense, just replace the aforementioned mechs with Assault Whales and Carebears.

View PostMrMadguy, on 10 November 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

Players want fair fights, not Meta-stomp-fests, cuz fair fights overall are much more enjoyable for everybody - and therefore everybody wants balanced maps.

How can maps, like Polar, be considered fair, if it, for example, was released especially to boost sales for LRM boat 'Mech - Archer. Why would PGI all of a sudden start to care about Alpine Peaks at the same moment, lol?

To be fair, LRMs are terrible elsewhere, and aren't that great if people are packing any of their multiple hardcounters.

#45 LordNothing

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 10:15 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 11 November 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

Lots for me to cover here....


First of all, for a close-recon Light build, ECM is more of a hindrance than a help. Second, Portico(or Crystal hell as I call it) is easily one of the worst maps in CW. The area by the gates is a deathtrap for a push because of how easy it is to set up Brawlers there for an ambush. Seriously, a few well-placed Atlai and Krabs will decimate pretty much any push. Ditto if the Clans are on defense, just replace the aforementioned mechs with Assault Whales and Carebears.


this man clearly has no taste. the worst map is boreal vault. its clean sight lines to the gates turns this into what amounts to a meat grinder. people end up camping and trading constantly, and that is not fun for the brawlers. how can i brawl when half the team gets themselves killed by bunching up at the door. at least on grim portico you have the option to take a little bit of cover on the way in. of course either map gives options to play it badly but portico is one of my favorite maps, its even better than the totally awesome (except for the rocks) vitric forge.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 November 2016 - 10:20 PM.


#46 Rabid Imp

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 10:23 PM

hope they do not revamp them. I miss the old frozen city and forest maps. Yes they were not pretty compared to today's versions, but they were much much more functional.

I think people like maps that:
do not punish specific builds (brawlers on polar)
have a few routes to attack and the possibility of escape (both canyon and HPG are perfect examples of where you can make a mistake and possibly survive and have several avenues to get in shots on people)
easy to see and navigate on (bog fog and trees suck)
can get into the action fast (mechs lose like 5 tons running around before they find someone to shoot on polar)

Again I think the new maps look better, but are not as good from a gameplay aspect (PUG) as the old ones.

Edited by Rabid Imp, 11 November 2016 - 10:24 PM.


#47 MrMadguy

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 12:58 AM

I've posted it numerous of times already, but there seem to be people, who has some kind of amnesia, cuz the post new thread on the same topic, that was discussed just yesterday:
1) Canyon - most balanced map, no clear advantage for some Meta. Assaults spawn point are a little bit bad, cuz they promote NASCARing.
2) HPG - same, but walls and outer circle spoil this map a little bit - sometimes they're exploited by JJ and hide'n'seek abusers (Making area, that can't be accessed by other 'Mechs, other than specific ones - is terribly bad idea. Why can't walls be blocked by invisible walls?). It happens quite rarely though.
3) Mining - same, but initially I disliked this map due to other 'Mechs being able to attack you from multiple directions at once - this promotes "stick to sides" tactic, that kills variety a little bit. But if teams decide not to fight for center - this map is great.
4) Tourmaline - actually great map. I even think, that this is the way, every map should be made. It has 5 sectors with completely different Metas, that suit different playstyles, and players are free to pick any of them. One sector - is Canyon like, that allows maneuvering without threat of being snipe-stomped, another - Mining-like maze with high walls and lots of ramps, that promotes brawling, third - is open and promotes sniping/LRMing, fourth - is balanced one, like old Frozen, and center of map - is arena-like, like Canyon/HPG/Mining have. The only problem with Tourmaline - it's big and hot.
5) Bog - great balanced map. Allows all different Metas - cover, walls, ramps, maze, "canyon" - all in place. Was imbalanced in the past, but now it's fixed. I personally don't have problems with it, but other players hate it due to bad visibility and clutter.
6) Caustic - this map is fairly balanced and was relatively popular in the past. But after fix it's a little bit broken. Clutter, that restricts maneuvering, promotes NASCARing tactic, many players hate. Also this map is extremely hot and visibility is bad at center.
7) Plexus - map, that misses it's real potential. It could be colder version of Tourmaline, but completely open center ruins this map and turns it into another Forest or River.
8) Frozen - top 2 best map in the past. Had two balanced snipe/brawl zones, separated by rock with tunnel and crash site in one corner of the map and great brawl city zone with canyon in another. Great variety of tactics, battle, moving from one spot of the map to another... But now it's just 1km wide crater, most players simply refuse to cross, with several rows of buildings at it's edges. No tunnel, no canyon. Too snipe-biased. Completely ruined. RIP.
9) Crimson - surprisingly many players like it. I personally hate it due to complete lack of variety - it's either messing in tunnel or messing on platform. This map has great potential, but open space between mountain and city part completely ruins all alternative routes. Great city part is completely unused due to this reason - either teams just don't want to risk to play this way, cuz if enemy team would react properly - this tactic would become suicidal one pretty fast.
10) Forest - again, very popular map in the past. Completely destroyed by overhaul. In this past this map had 2 parts - balanced brawling/sniping sector with 'Mech-height hills + several mazes, where two halves of map were split by rock with tunnel through it, and open water with great flanking potential, but with risk of being sniped/LRMed. Great variety of tactics. And what it is now? Now map is completely open with narrow stripe of cover along shore line, so players just don't have another choice, other than messing somewhere around two high rocks at the center of the map. RIP...
11) River - this map was relatively popular in the past. But it was considered to be too small and unbalanced - teams, that were spawning at higher side of map, were able to instantly LRM/snipe-stomp Assault squad of their enemies. But when it was made bigger - it turned into snipe fest. Yeah, it has great city parts, that were making it very popular in the past, but...river is now too hard to cross. In the past space behind Citadel was more safe due to being more narrow and that allowed teams so attack other side through this path. But not now. So, now it's boring snipe fest on a par with new Frozen. RIP.
12) Alpine - it's obvious. Doesn't need any comments. It's both unbalanced and way to snipe-biased map. Also this map is from "waste of time" category - i.e. it's way to fast-'Mech biased too. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes for teams to actually start playing the game.
13) Therma - old and new ones are very similar. The only difference - is that old one had only one point of interest and new one has several ones. But principle is exactly the same. It's way too hot and built around bottlenecked design - relatively open zones are separated by bottlenecks, without any options to flank or take another route. Majority of players hate this design, cuz bottlenecked design always causes matches to end as stomps. New one also promotes NASCARing, cuz players try to avoid being stomped at death traps and try to run from each other around the map as the result.
14) Polar - doesn't need any explanation. Same as Alpine, but twice worse. If Alpine at least has several spots on a map, where fair fight is possible - then Polar doesn't. Map is extremely snipe/LRM and fast 'Mech-biased. Most matches are waste of time there and usually result of match is determined by team, that gives up and decide to suicide first.

Edited by MrMadguy, 12 November 2016 - 05:02 AM.


#48 BattleBunny

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:02 AM

reading through this it seems most people
- want good visibility
- no clutter on the ground
- dont like day/night cycle,

is there ANY WAY to get that information to PGI please? Cause I am pretty sure they think they are doing great work when adding fog/night/clutter to all the maps.

#49 jss78

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:11 AM

View PostZibmo, on 11 November 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:


So you believe forest colony and terra therma are improvements? They have gone all in on the Bawg map type. Low visibility, "noisy" air, lots of things to block progress.

Personally, I dread whenever they say, "We're going to improve xyz map."


Personally I think so yes. To me old TT was awful, while the new one both looks better and plays better. It was mainly the derp-fest at the cauldron that made it awful. In a way it was the players' fault that they flocked there instead of the well-playing rest of the map, but that's what you have.

Forest Colony is an improvement to me -- it looks beautiful and the old one was too small for 12-vs-12.

Otherwise the record on map dev. is good IMO:

- Two new maps Polar/Grim are well playing

- River City a huge improvement over old one.

- Caustic looks much better than old one, to me the effect on gameplay was negligible

- Swamp map is a lot more enjoyable to me with the reduced clutter

- Crimson a simple art pass.

- Frozen I know is divisive. Personally I was INCREDIBLY tired of the old one. The new one seems to give a good mix of short and long range, and games vary in terms of where the action is, and I'd call this a success.

Looking at the big picture, I think it's a big improvement. With the TT revamp I no longer dread having to play any map.

Now I'd just really want some entirely new maps taking the lessons learned (e.g. don't funnel the players to specific places, decent visibility).

#50 Zibmo

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:21 AM

View PostWarHippy, on 11 November 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

They are good maps, but way overplayed. I see a lot of people say "vision" and if that is true it is a reason to make it harder in those maps as far as I am concerned, but given there are other maps just as easy to see on(if not easier compared to mining) that don't get the same kind of votes I get the feeling a lot of these people saying that are not being truthful with us or themselves.


Or that perhaps their answer is an oversimplification, but that the primary reasons are "I can see."

And your call to "make it harder" to see in those maps would also make it harder for me to login to play at all. I absolutely detest - DETEST - all the visual crap that the "artistic" maps are filled to distraction with. If I had to only play Forest, Frozen or the Bawg, I would not play at all. As in "bye bye". And most of my friends have the same reactions.

All they really need to do to cement FP as a cemetery is add "visual elements" to it to impede vision in already poorly constructed maps.

[edit] And to the poster above me: I agree with Crimson Strait. I find none of the other "improvements" to actually be improvements. The interesting components have been removed and fights still revolve around the SOS. With the added "improvement" that if you aren't playing with 1) settings turned way down, particularly particles or 2) heat / night vision turned on, you can't see a damned thing. If I wanted to play games that way, I'd remove my glasses and have at. As for River City - I think it's obvious that a port / coastal city would build cooling towers across its bay, which is nothing but a haven for jagged rocks. I can certainly see the appeal. I mean, I would certainly want to build a city where the bay itself is relatively inaccessible and then, to round it out, I'd build something to artificially constrain the bay even more.

Edited by Zibmo, 12 November 2016 - 06:26 AM.


#51 s0da72

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:30 AM

1. No fog. Clear vision
2. No day night cycle
3. For the most part works well with whatever game mode voted for.

These maps seem to work well with quick play.

I like the new Terra Therma map as well.

#52 Zibmo

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:42 AM

View Posts0da72, on 12 November 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

I like the new Terra Therma map as well.


I'm still trying to decide.

#53 Ollie Rifleman Brown

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:07 AM

View PostBattleBunny, on 12 November 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

reading through this it seems most people
- want good visibility
- no clutter on the ground
- dont like day/night cycle,



a mini map,

C.O.D style with Robotas,
for the brainless and tactical noobs,
where technical equipment makes the difference and
they can call it "SKILL".

#54 Zibmo

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:43 AM

View PostOllie Rifleman Brown, on 12 November 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:


a mini map,

C.O.D style with Robotas,
for the brainless and tactical noobs,
where technical equipment makes the difference and
they can call it "SKILL".


Not sure where you got that in his post. He didn't say "featurless". He said no ground clutter. In earlier versions of maps, I could knock over trees and get stuck on roots. I could climb a face but get stopped by a pebble less than the height of my foot. That kind of "no clutter". Also, visual "elements" that make it so you can't frigging see and can only shoot vaguely underneath a red dorito is not engaging gameplay, at least in my opinion. I could be wrong though. So keep on insulting people. We are, I'm sure, in awe of you.

#55 WarHippy

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:59 PM

View PostZibmo, on 12 November 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:


Or that perhaps their answer is an oversimplification, but that the primary reasons are "I can see."

And your call to "make it harder" to see in those maps would also make it harder for me to login to play at all. I absolutely detest - DETEST - all the visual crap that the "artistic" maps are filled to distraction with. If I had to only play Forest, Frozen or the Bawg, I would not play at all. As in "bye bye". And most of my friends have the same reactions.
Same can be said for the people tired of playing the same maps again and again. Some of us are playing less and less. As in "bye bye". Something needs to change.





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