476 replies to this topic

[Graugger]

...

Ok so.................. You didn't even change the stats for AC heat IN YOUR OWN MECHLAB!

Anyone that doesn't check the forums is not going to realize this.

Evidently mechlab info was OP and needed nerfed as well... stealth nerfed too as it isn't in the patch notes.

[Cy Mitchell]

chaothulhu, on 13 November 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

a lower jam chance that accumulates with the number of weapons mounted would have been a much more sensible way to go, as it would encourage more mixed builds and discourage boating

but this is pgi - where half measures and over reaction are par for the course

Lower jam chances but increased cooldown for each additional weapon when boating ballistics would have worked even better. It would control the dakka boats but would not punish those Mechs that can only carry one or two ballasics as part of a mixed weapon loadout.

Just add a increased cooldown percentage for every additional ballistic type weapon (excluding MG). For example (and this is only an arbitrary example):

cUAC5 jam chance 10%
1 equals cooldown of 1.65 sec
2 equals cooldown of 1.82 sec (10% increase cooldown)
3 equals cooldown of 2.06 sec (25% increase cooldown)
4 equals cooldown of 3.30 sec (50% increase cooldown)

These additional cooldown percentages would apply when firing the weapons simultaneously too close together similar to Gost Heat penalties that we have for energy now.

Thus you control boating but do not destroy builds that rely on one or two ballistics.

Stacking cUAC5 and UAC10 would work the same way. The percent of cooldown increase would affect the base cooldown of each weapon individually. So two cUAC5 and two cUAC10 would still result in a 50% cooldown increase in this example.

You could use a similar formula to control boating of Gauss, erPPC, ballistics/erPPC or Gauss/erPPC which would control boating in that case without killing builds that can only carry one or two of the weapons due to hardpoints, crit space or tonnage.

Edited by Rampage, 13 November 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[Dex Spero]

Graugger, on 13 November 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

...

Ok so.................. You didn't even change the stats for AC heat IN YOUR OWN MECHLAB!

Anyone that doesn't check the forums is not going to realize this.

Evidently mechlab info was OP and needed nerfed as well... stealth nerfed too as it isn't in the patch notes.

From the patch notes:
Ballistics

AC/2

• Heat reduced to 0.6 (from 0.8)

Clan AC/2[/color]

• Heat reduced to 0.6 (from 0.8)r]

Clan LBX/2[/color]

• Heat reduced to 0.6 (from 0.8)

AC/5[/color]

• Heat increased to 1.5 (from 1)

Clan LBX/5[/color]

• Heat increased to 1.5 (from 1)

Also, the patch says November 15th. I could be confuzzed, it wouldn't be the first time, but I don't think its happened yet.

Edited by Dex Spero, 13 November 2016 - 05:03 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Hawok79, on 13 November 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

That´s wrong.
The CUAC 20 can jam on the first click and they'll do,its a bug.

It was a bug; it doesn't happen anymore.

I challenge anyone to provide video proving otherwise.

As I can sincerely say I haven't had a UAC jam on the first (not cooling down) shot in at least a year, and I use them on pretty much every mech. Not once. Nor have I seen a video where it happens.

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

Again, you can whine about uac nerfs all you want but it is a risk/reward weapon. You are getting double the damage output for only the cost of 2x the ammo consumption.

I would posit that it would be fairer to have a diminishing returns type nega-quirk that stacks jam chances for *concurrent* firings, but even though i use them i see the reasoning.... seriously 4+ uac 5/10s just melt opponents, even when one is jammed...

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 13 November 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

You're forgetting the duration

The cAC20 has a 5.03s recycle, because 4.7+0.33
(or 0.11*(n-1)
n being number of shells (aside from when shell=1)

+.33
+.22
+.11
As the recycle doesn't start until after the last shell fires.

Well, the cUAC and cAC have the same burst times, so both are affected equally.

---

But still, Mr. Ward above is absurdly ridiculous.

To argue that a 0.7s recycle time doesn't matter? That's mind boggling. That's a HUGE difference in DPS: 4.26 vs. 5 DPS.

5 Class: 2.78dps vs. 3.0dps (8% loss)
10 Class: 3.45dps vs 4.0dps (14% loss)
20 Class: 4.26dps vs 5.0dps (15% loss)

So you're losing a nice chunk of damage output for no gain whatsoever, even if you NEVER doubletap your UAC's. Of course, in practice you could simply elect to only doubletap when you're only going to have a chance to get that bit of extra damage in and even if you jam it won't matter as you're moving back into cover.

It's not uncommon to peek, fire, return to cover. Being able to peek, drop 40 damage from a UAC20 or dual UAC10's is incredibly valuable, and it comes at no cost in that case. If you're going to need sustained damage output (such as in a brawl) then perhaps LBX's are a better choice, or simply electing NOT to doubletap.

I mean, when I run UAC2's, I never doubletap them (as even pre-patch, UAC2's lose DPS overall doubletapping). Still, I run UAC2's instead of AC2's because of the extra slot AC's require. And the AC2 is even the only case that DOESN'T lose DPS by going to an AC instead of UAC, *and* has the range advantage (basically has a build in range module, as it fires at the same range a module boosted UAC2 fires).

But running cAC5, cAC10, or cAC20? That's just flat out dumb. It's choosing to lose 10-15% damage output because you're afraid that it'll jam when you choose to doubletap (even though you're not required to do that ever).

The mind boggles.

[Gwydion Ward]

Wintersdark, on 13 November 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

But running cAC5, cAC10, or cAC20? That's just flat out dumb. It's choosing to lose 10-15% damage output because you're afraid that it'll jam when you choose to doubletap (even though you're not required to do that ever).

The mind boggles.

If your 'boating' UAC's, the change dosnt really affect anyone much.. As even with a increased chance to jam, and longer jam time... if 1 or 2 weapons out of 4-6 jam.. you still have 2+ weapons firing.

But.. lets say you have a UAC20 as your 'primary' weapon (because you decide to NOT run a 'meta-build' mech loadout.) and ss backup weapons you have say, 3 SL's or perhaps 2 ML's.. You get into a fight.. and you Jam. For 12 seconds, the ONLY damage you can do, is with the 3 SL's or the 2 ML's. For 12 seconds, a enemy IS using a AC20 can hit you 3 more times, before your weapon unjams. and a enemy Clan using a CAC20 can hit you 2 more times.. before your weapon unjams.

12 seconds in a brawl, being unable to use your primary weapon means your dead. No if's and's or but's about it.. Your dead. And brawling is exactly were UAC20's and AC20's are used.

Now, UAC/AC 5's and 10's.. Those are used both in brawling and in mid-range. UAC5's will now have a 7.16 cooldown when jammed, and UAC10's will have a 10.5 second cooldown when jammed. compare that to the 0.04 difference in cooldown on the CAC5 over the CUAC5, and the 0.4 second difference in cooldowns from a CAC10 and CUAC10 when 'not' attempting to double-tap... and yea.. the risk is not worth the marginal reward you get. As sure, if you DONT jam.. you get to fire faster.. but if you DO jam.. you lose out on 3 shots 'each' from either a cAC5 or cC10. And in both the CUAC5 and CUAC10, as with the CUAC20, when you DO jam.. the IS counterpart gets to fire at you a whopping 3 times before your weapon unjams, and the CAC can hit you 2 times.

I'd rather lose out on less than 1 second worth of 'guaranteed' damage, than get hit for 2 or 3 'shots' worth of damage that i cant return fire against. when that weapon is my MAIN weapon, rather than one out of 4 or 6.

Again... im NOT appose to making some change that will counter UAC 'boating'.. As they stated was their intention with the change. But their change is only going to aggravate the UAC Boaters, its NOT going to stop them from doing it. What it WILL do, is force people who DONT boat UAC's to switch over to standard AC's, because the risk is now going to be just to far away from any reward.

Edited by Gwydion Ward, 13 November 2016 - 06:01 PM.

[Navid A1]

Ironically Ironclad Irony, on 13 November 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Again, you can whine about uac nerfs all you want but it is a risk/reward weapon. You are getting double the damage output for only the cost of 2x the ammo consumption.

Are you sure you are not forgetting that UACs jam very frequently already?
UAC jam is in the game... right now!
so its double "spread" damage output for the risk of 5 second jams.
seems fair to me.

Ironically Ironclad Irony, on 13 November 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

I would posit that it would be fairer to have a diminishing returns type nega-quirk that stacks jam chances for *concurrent* firings, but even though i use them i see the reasoning.... seriously 4+ uac 5/10s just melt opponents, even when one is jammed...

So F* the rest of MWO if only 1 mech can boat heavy UACs and abuse it to the max?
KDK-3 was the result of PGI branded hardpoint inflation. It should have had 1 B hardpoints per torso in the first place. But PGI has to be PGI.
Nerf the KDK-3 instead of screwing over the rest of the game... no?

[Cy Mitchell]

Ironically Ironclad Irony, on 13 November 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Again, you can whine about uac nerfs all you want but it is a risk/reward weapon. You are getting double the damage output for only the cost of 2x the ammo consumption.

I would posit that it would be fairer to have a diminishing returns type nega-quirk that stacks jam chances for *concurrent* firings, but even though i use them i see the reasoning.... seriously 4+ uac 5/10s just melt opponents, even when one is jammed...

The effects on stacked UAC is not the problem. If one jams you have others to back it up. Controlling stacking with increased jam chances barely slows them down. But the increased jam chances and increased jam times with cooldown on top of them absolutely destroys Light, Medium and Heavy builds which can only carry one or two ballistics as their primary damage dealer.

Yes, you can not double tap but then you have effectively eliminated the feature that makes UACs worth taking.

You can call it whining but the truth is that there are better ways to accomplish the goal that PGI set out to achieve. I call it constructive feedback.

[justcallme A S H]

I Zeratul I, on 11 November 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Those boosted CUAC-20 jam times will hurt. The 5 second jam time was already long for CUAC-20 noobs like me. Now its 8 seconds. The learning curve will be much steeper. It might be necessary to curb those skilled with the weapon. But from my limited experience I can't say I've seen anyone dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with CUAC-20's.

Yep a UAC20 is not a viable weapon IMO. It was just OK beforehand. This is a huge nerf.

This patch feels like a TTK reduction against AC weapons, yet leaves high alpha laser vom untouched.

Odd balance changes indeed for this reason. Gauss/PPC KD3s FTW now, not like they were not strong before...

Edited by justcallme A S H, 13 November 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Gwydion Ward, on 13 November 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

If your 'boating' UAC's, the change dosnt really affect anyone much.. As even with a increased chance to jam, and longer jam time... if 1 or 2 weapons out of 4-6 jam.. you still have 2+ weapons firing.

But.. lets say you have a UAC20 as your 'primary' weapon (because you decide to NOT run a 'meta-build' mech loadout.) and ss backup weapons you have say, 3 SL's or perhaps 2 ML's.. You get into a fight.. and you Jam. For 12 seconds, the ONLY damage you can do, is with the 3 SL's or the 2 ML's. For 12 seconds, a enemy IS using a AC20 can hit you 3 more times, before your weapon unjams. and a enemy Clan using a CAC20 can hit you 2 more times.. before your weapon unjams.

12 seconds in a brawl, being unable to use your primary weapon means your dead. No if's and's or but's about it.. Your dead. And brawling is exactly were UAC20's and AC20's are used.

*headdesk*

JUST DON'T DOUBLETAP THEN.

See?

JUST DON'T.

If you *NEVER* doubletap, you're STILL better off using UAC's than AC's. The UAC is simply better. It's smaller, it does more damage. Just don't doubletap.

Of course, having the *ability* to doubletap, no matter how bad jamming is, is still an advantage. It gives you the option of risking a jam, that you can weigh in battle if need be - such as in times where if it jams it won't affect you. Because:

1) YOU choose whether to risk a jam. Never doubletap, never jam.
2) cUAC, never doubletapping, does more damage than cAC

Now, I'm not arguing that they should nerf jam rates, that's a different matter.

What I'm saying is, there's no advantage to taking cAC vs. cUAC, but there ARE disadvantages, even if you never, ever doubletap. This is terrible for weapon diversity, as there simply is no circumstance where you're better off with cAC's.

So, all your blathering about boating vs. running a single weapon are pointless: Even if you run only one UAC, you're 100% of the time better off running a UAC5-20 vs. a AC5-20 (the AC2 is a bit sketchier, for reasons covered earlier). And in the cases where a UAC isn't ideal, a LBX is an improvement, such as in a close brawl where you'll never intend to doubletap ever, go to the LBX20 and reap front loaded damage instead of having to have facetime.

In all cases, running AC5-20's is objectively worse than the alternatives.

[Wintersdark]

For clarity:

I do think the jam changes are ridiculous and bad, and it does make doubletapping very rarely worthwhile at all (basically, it means only UAC-Jam-Chance quirked mechs are "able" to doubletap.)

If it's PGI's goal that double tapping is a rarely done thing, then that's OK I guess (though not what I'd prefer), but if that IS the case, then PGI needs to really look at the baseline stats of the weapon. Because the loss of PPFLD as compared to IS AC's is massive; the doubletapping made it worthwhile. However, if you're rarely/never doubletapping, then that's making already mediocre weapons significantly worse.

[Gwydion Ward]

Wintersdark, on 13 November 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

If it's PGI's goal that double tapping is a rarely done thing, then that's OK I guess (though not what I'd prefer)

The thing is though, the changes they made, are in direct response to the "Boating" of UAC's.. not the use of UAC's on their own.

Quote

we should say upfront that the above changes were not implemented in an attempt to address the performance of the Kodiak alone, but instead were a result of close monitoring all UAC 'boats', such as the Mauler, Night Gyr, Dire Wolf, and others. These 'Mechs were found to be relatively over-performing almost across the board.

Their basing their change off of mech's that "Boat" UAC's.

Quote

Ultimately, the near 30-60% DPS increase across the UAC line, compared to the other Ballistic options, made UACs a direct DPS 'upgrade' over those alternative Ballistic options. While this is somewhat needed on the Inner Sphere side to help justify the higher tonnage and slot requirements, this trait is not shared on the Clan side. For Clan 'Mechs, the UAC is essentially a 'free' upgrade that was vastly over-performing against the Ballistic alternatives.

30-60% dps increase while BOATING.

I seriously doubt you'd get a 60% damage increase while carrying only a single UAC5 vs an IS AC5, especially when you throw jamming into things.

They are attempting to counter 'boating', with a change that will ONLY impact people who do not boat.

[Cy Mitchell]

Hmmm, maybe the skill tree changes are going to include weapon modules that reduce jam chances or jam duration? That would explain a lot as it would then force us to choose between, range, cooldown, jam chance or jam duration. More module to sell, more of a c-bill and GXP sink. More choices for Mech customization.

Kind of like the doritos on the mini-map takes something away and force us to equip a module to get it back. If the Mechs do not get more module slots then that could make for some really tough and interesting decisions.

[Wintersdark]

Gwydion Ward, on 13 November 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

The thing is though, the changes they made, are in direct response to the "Boating" of UAC's.. not the use of UAC's on their own.

Their basing their change off of mech's that "Boat" UAC's.



30-60% dps increase while BOATING.

I seriously doubt you'd get a 60% damage increase while carrying only a single UAC5 vs an IS AC5, especially when you throw jamming into things.

They are attempting to counter 'boating', with a change that will ONLY impact people who do not boat.

None of this is relevant to cAC's. cAC's are do less damage than cUAC's when neither are doubletapping, as such, there is no reason to bring cAC's.

The damage, as a percentage, is not impacted by boating.

What's I'm saying here, is that overall projected DPS considering jamming is linear with the number of UAC's. If UAC's doubletapping resulted in +30% DPS, then they'd give +30% DPS doubletapping whether you had one or thirty.

What they've done is substantially reduced the DPS of the weapon while doubletapping.

Currently, there's an average DPS increase on UAC's while doubletapping (Except the UAC2!) counting jams, and again, that increase is constant whether you have one or thirty. It would seem that PGI is looking for doubletapping to be a burst increase but DPS loss overall.

[Punk Oblivion]

Navid A1, on 13 November 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Sorry, I can not take this seriously because of false logic.

- Larger UACs has never ever been OP. That sentence invalidates your post. Certain mechs were OP because o their ability of boating UACs in large numbers on high hardpoints. If you need to boat something as heavy as a large UAC to be effective, then there is a problem with UACs being sub-optimal weapons!

- Wrong analogy again when you are comparing penalties between UAC2 and UAC20. A single UAC2 is not the main weapon system on a mech (unless boated in large numbers which makes jamming nearly irrelevant). However, a single UAC20 is often used as the main gun on a mech. You can not "Boat" UAC20. Given the range a UAC20 is supposed to be used, a 12 second jam is death for a UAC20 user, as he usually do not have any other worthwhile weapon to sustain in close combat. That is certain death penalty for bringing a UAC20.
Right now, UAC20 jams like crazy and is unreliable already... this change would be a nail in the coffin.

- Also you are wrong about a UAC20 doing 20 damage up front. UAC20 is many things... but up front damage is not one of them.

This whole disciussion is to tell PGI not to gut a weapon system only because one and only one mech variant is able to abuse it. Its about telling them not to go full kneejerk towards the easiest get away regarding these changes.

It's not "false logic" intentionally. I am mainly an IS pilot, so I just have a lack of experience with a wide variety of Clan mechs. I really have only gotten ballistic heavy clan mechs. BUT I have spent YEARS playing ballistics in IS mechs. Also, don't underestimate my silliness, I totally will boat 4 UAC20's on a direwhale!

In my experience, if I am using UAC's in any mixed builds, I am careful not to double tap them unless it is the right situation. Anytime I know I can duck into cover easily, double fire. If I catch someone out of place on the enemy side and can inflict some deep wounds, double tap. In a brawl I will almost never double tap unless I know I can finish them with it, or unless I am about to die where it doesn't matter.

Of course I have been in the position where I am an assault leading a push and my UAC's lock up (double tapping to try and turn big threats off of me) and it is unfortunate, and I will most likely die a quick death with low damage. But I have also had instances of my UAC's not jamming for what seems to be a minute of non-stop fire. Got to make choices and accept the good and bad I guess?

vibrant, on 13 November 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

You're assuming ceteris paribus -- all else being equal. However, it is absolutely not. The weapons are used in completely different circumstances. CUAC2, if it's used at all, is a long-range weapon. If your weapons jam, damn, you stop firing for a while, maybe duck and hide before poking out again. I can't see any way it would add danger to the mech, aside from having a marginally lower DPS overall.

CUAC20, however, is a very short-range weapon requiring a lot of dangerous face-time. If the weapon jams for 8 seconds... and it's your main source of damage (which is probably is, considering the weight of it)... what are your choices? Continue fighting with maybe 20-40% of your firepower - and likely die? 8 seconds is a looooong time in a brawl. Turn and run... exposing your rear... and likely die? There are no good options. Yes, statistically, it would make sense. But looking at the circumstances they're used it, it feels very unfair to effectively sentence a brawler to a possible death for a single weapon jam.

I am a numbers guy, so I like all my weapon stats to be equal! But I see your point of different situations.

Like I said above, when I brawl with a UAC20 I typically won't double tap unless I have the upper hand or am about to die. I make my choice and live or die by that. I guess I have just have enough times of not jamming for long periods that I gracefully accept my fate of having a weapon jam on the first fire...

[Keyman1848]

Appogee, on 11 November 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

+50% AC5 and UAC5 heat?

Ouch.

The nerf to the UACs is bad. Now everyone will go back to the Gauss Rifles and PPCs again. They're solving one problem by bringing back another. Bad idea.

[Nomex 99]

Alexander Garden, on 11 November 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

Disagreeing with a change is fine, but please make an effort to keep the content of your posts civil.

Changing some game mechanics is fine, but please make an effort to play your own game.

[kesmai]

Ah!
Got it!
A stroke of genius by pgi.
Nerf clan uac's.
Right after the meta has gone ppc/gauss.
Really clever...

[Papaspud]

Looks to me like PGI looked at the raw numbers and decided UAC's in general were putting out too much damage. The jam rate chance gain is negligible, but the cooldown is large. I am willing to bet even after this you will see lots of uacs being boated still, kind of like people said the gauss rifle was worthless- yet I still see them often.

Most of the changes look pretty good, IMHO.

Give it a chance people, I bet it isn't going to make a whole lot of difference overall, and maybe, just maybe we will see a little more diversity on the battlefield, maybe it will be better????? let's play it first- whine after.