52 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

The inner sphere has waaaay to many mechs in the game and now their adding another, is this fair??? I don't think so.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

KursedVixen, on 03 August 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

The inner sphere has waaaay to many mechs in the game and now their adding another, is this fair??? I don't think so.

My first reflex was to reject the argument right away, but any claim deserves a factual check. Here's what I found:

sarna.net lists 77 IS Mechs vs. 56 Clan Mechs. That's 43.12% more IS in comparison to Clan. For the sake of compIetness I even counted the LAMs which, let's be honest, are rather a joke. In MWO on the other hand, we have at the moment 52 IS Mechs vs. 31 Clan Mechs with 3 IS and 2 Clan announced to appear until november. (Source smurfy & MWO Store) with a wide spread of diffences between weight classes:

• Light IS vs. Light Clan: 10:6 (11:6 with Osiris)
  
• Medium IS vs. Medium Clan: 16:8 (16:9 with Arctic Wolf)
  
• Heavy IS vs. Heavy Clan: 14:8 (15:9 with Thanatos and Nova Cat)
  
• Assault IS vs. Assault Clan: 12:9 (13:9 with Nightstar)

On first sight and by naked numbers only you would really have a strong argument there. Allow me to make (kind of) a counter argument though. Since many of the Clan Mechs are actually Omnimechs and current techlevel won't allow IS Omnis (byebye Hauptmann), you get much more variability and variety out of a single Clan Chassis, where you would have to switch between different IS chassis to get the same range of flexibility.


With the current amount of Mechs overall one new single Mech chassis still has quite an impact on the percentage for one side or another. And I am quite sure that the Mech following the Thanatos will be another Clan chassis. Calculating the Clans flexibility and the still superior tech, especially regarding slots and tonnage needed, I would not weight the number advantage so much as to say it's unfair.

I think we can agree on one thing for sure: There are never ever enough Mechs! (I want a Hatchetman so friggin much!)

Edited by Thomster, 04 August 2017 - 03:17 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

I would say no more bad IS Mechs
The Night Star and Osiris might become the first IS Mechs that doesn't suck without heavy quirks.

The IS only need two Mechs and I can call it a day - Legacy and Daikyu (see what i did)

And please don't release a light and not a 20t clan light for what its worth (firemoth D - the firepower of a IS Heavy with the speed and size of a locust)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 August 2017 - 02:43 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Thomster, on 04 August 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

My first reflex was to reject the argument right away, but any claim deserves a factual check. Here's what I found:

sarna.net lists 77 IS Mechs vs. 56 Clan Mechs. That's 43.12% more IS in comparison to Clan. For the sake of compIetness I even counted the LAMs which, let's be honest, are rather a joke. In MWO on the other hand, we have at the moment 52 IS Mechs vs. 31 Clan Mechs with 3 IS and 2 Clan announced to appear until november. (Source smurfy & MWO Store) with a wide spread of diffences between weight classes:

• Light IS vs. Light Clan: 10:6 (11:6 with Osiris)
  
• Medium IS vs. Medium Clan: 16:8 (16:9 with Arctic Wolf)
  
• Heavy IS vs. Heavy Clan: 14:8 (15:9 with Thanatos and Nova Cat)
  
• Assault IS vs. Assault Clan: 12:9 (13:9 with Nightstar)

On first sight and by naked numbers only you would really have a strong argument there. Allow me to make (kind of) a counter argument though. Since many of the Clan Mechs are actually Omnimechs and current techlevel won't allow IS Omnis (byebye Hauptmann), you get much more variability and variety out of a single Clan Chassis, where you would have to switch between different IS chassis to get the same range of flexibility.




With the current amount of Mechs overall one new single Mech chassis still has quite an impact on the percentage for one side or another. And I am quite sure that the Mech following the Thanatos will be another Clan chassis. Calculating the Clans flexibility and the still superior tech, especially regarding slots and tonnage needed, I would not weight the number advantage so much as to say it's unfair.

I think we can agree on one thing for sure: There are never ever enough Mechs! (I want a Hatchetman so friggin much!)

I would fully agree with that if there were no 8/8 omnipod bonuses which really make mixing an matching parts almost worthless.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 August 2017 - 04:45 AM.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

You're right, I forgot about the 8/8 bonuses. Probably because I never felt they were that effective and considered them to be rather a consolation price against IS Mech quirks. I personaly always weighted an Omnis awesome flexibility over the possible 8/8 bonuses so when building an Omni I slap my modules together how I need them. But that's probably just me and I should probably take a look at the value of the 8/8 bonuses.

[BTGbullseye]

For the most part, the 8/8 bonuses are mediocre, and boost the least desirable aspects of the mech into being a slightly less less desireable thing. (like UAC quirks on a light, or missile quirks for a single missile hardpoint that can't effectively mount more than an LRM10+A/ATM6)

Honestly, the quirks should be component specific only, and the 2.5% XP bonus be the ONLY 8/8 bonus for any Omni.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 04 August 2017 - 05:16 AM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Thomster, on 04 August 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

You're right, I forgot about the 8/8 bonuses. Probably because I never felt they were that effective and considered them to be rather a consolation price against IS Mech quirks. I personaly always weighted an Omnis awesome flexibility over the possible 8/8 bonuses so when building an Omni I slap my modules together how I need them. But that's probably just me and I should probably take a look at the value of the 8/8 bonuses.

Do not forget, the number of variants per IS mech chassis also far outweighs those of the Clans as well on top of everything else.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 04 August 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[KursedVixen]

BTGbullseye, on 04 August 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

For the most part, the 8/8 bonuses are mediocre, and boost the least desirable aspects of the mech into being a slightly less less desireable thing. (like UAC quirks on a light, or missile quirks for a single missile hardpoint that can't effectively mount more than an LRM10+A/ATM6)

Honestly, the quirks should be component specific only, and the 2.5% XP bonus be the ONLY 8/8 bonus for any Omni.

Quirks should not be component specific they should be catagory specific like ex. Ballistic Range,Laser Duration, Energy heat,Ballistic Velocity... The only quirk i see that should be specific is PPC Velocity.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

Jep Jorgensson, on 04 August 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Do not forget, the number of variants per IS mech chassis also far outweighs those of the Clans as well on top of everything else.

The amount of variants of an IS chassis is in no way comparable to the possible variants you can configure an Omnimech
Let's take an example, where I will only count distinguishable Omnipod variants for the Clan Omnis:

Locust: 8 variants => 8 possible distinctive combinations of hardpoint types

Nova: 8 chassis variants with 1 Head Pod x 4 RT Pods x 5 LT Pods x 6 RA Pods x 4 LA Pods (ignoring the legs) => 480 possible distinctive combinations of Omnipods.

Some Omnis even have different head Pods. In the case of the Nova, there was just one variant.

Lets take the Omni with the least amount of variants:

Mad Dog: 4 variants, 4 RT x 4 LT x 4 RA x 2 LA => 128 possible distinguishable combinations of configuration. That's still 16x more than any IS Mech has variants.

Or go crazy with a Dire Wolf:
2H x 5RT x 4LT x 4RA x 4LA => 640 possible and distinguishable variants

And while we're at it, I didn't even take in account all the "Hero" and "Champion" Pods you only get if you pay bucks.

Edited by Thomster, 04 August 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Thomster, on 04 August 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

The amount of variants of an IS chassis is in no way comparable to the possible variants you can configure an Omnimech
Let's take an example, where I will only count distinguishable Omnipod variants for the Clan Omnis:

Locust: 8 variants => 8 possible distinctive combinations of hardpoint types

Nova: 8 chassis variants with 1 Head Pod x 4 RT Pods x 5 LT Pods x 6 RA Pods x 4 LA Pods (ignoring the legs) => 480 possible distinctive combinations of Omnipods.

Some Omnis even have different head Pods. In the case of the Nova, there was just one variant.

Lets take the Omni with the least amount of variants:

Mad Dog: 4 variants, 4 RT x 4 LT x 4 RA x 2 LA => 128 possible distinguishable combinations of configuration. That's still 16x more than any IS Mech has variants.

Or go crazy with a Dire Wolf:
2H x 5RT x 4LT x 4RA x 4LA => 640 possible and distinguishable variants

And while we're at it, I didn't even take in account all the "Hero" and "Champion" Pods you only get if you pay bucks.

yeah it's a ripoff we can't get those pods for free....

Still clans are lacking a good 20t light like the Locust....hint hint:Firemoth (In my dreams)

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 August 2017 - 02:03 PM.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

KursedVixen, on 04 August 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

yeah it's a ripoff we can't get those pods for free....

Well, not that you don't have to pay for IS Mech variants as well. Or you can even be as stupid as me buying 4 (!) LCT-PB because I am too f4ck1ng lazy to swap stuff ;-) In the end "Free-toPlay" is quite the relative term ;-)

[KursedVixen]

Thomster, on 04 August 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Well, not that you don't have to pay for IS Mech variants as well. Or you can even be as stupid as me buying 4 (!) LCT-PB because I am too f4ck1ng lazy to swap stuff ;-) In the end "Free-toPlay" is quite the relative term ;-)

You know I mean with c-bills and not bucks, Quiaff?


Also instead of making new mechs they could be making FIXES to issues that have plagued the game since it's beginning.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 August 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Thomster, on 04 August 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

The amount of variants of an IS chassis is in no way comparable to the possible variants you can configure an Omnimech
Let's take an example, where I will only count distinguishable Omnipod variants for the Clan Omnis:

Locust: 8 variants => 8 possible distinctive combinations of hardpoint types

Nova: 8 chassis variants with 1 Head Pod x 4 RT Pods x 5 LT Pods x 6 RA Pods x 4 LA Pods (ignoring the legs) => 480 possible distinctive combinations of Omnipods.

Some Omnis even have different head Pods. In the case of the Nova, there was just one variant.

Lets take the Omni with the least amount of variants:

Mad Dog: 4 variants, 4 RT x 4 LT x 4 RA x 2 LA => 128 possible distinguishable combinations of configuration. That's still 16x more than any IS Mech has variants.

Or go crazy with a Dire Wolf:
2H x 5RT x 4LT x 4RA x 4LA => 640 possible and distinguishable variants

And while we're at it, I didn't even take in account all the "Hero" and "Champion" Pods you only get if you pay bucks.

Your math is flawed. Not all omnipods are distinct. For example, you mentioned the Mad Dog. The heads, all the same. Both legs, all the same. The CT's, all the same. That makes half of the pods right off the bat. Add to that the redundant pods (pods with the same hardpoints as one or more other(s)), and the number shrinks even further. Add in the discriminatory 8-piece for what few quirks we get while IS mechs are still seriously buffed and the pre-fixed structure and armor slots while IS mechs have both floating slots and the ability to modify the engine on top of being a lot cheaper than Clan mechs in-game (with only IS Mech Mastery bundles, by the way), it all underlines the fact that Clan Omnimechs all too often lose out to their Battlemech brothers which is supported by the fact that Clan Battlemechs are actually rated as being better than Omnimechs for many of those very reasons. As for the Dire Wolf, why do you think they are so rare on the battlefield while Battlemechs like the Atlas are so common? Add to that the fact that IS mechs all still have an obscene amount of quirks on top of all the new toys from the last patch (many of which were obtained a full ten years too early, by the way) while we got scraps in terms of new tech, and it becomes clear who has the advantage.

At any rate, one thing that cannot be disputed is the fact that while the IS is extremely well rounded in all weight classes, Clans are however starved in many areas. At 80 tons, we have only the Gargoyle and most people do not use them due to the low amount of weapon tonnage. At 70 tons, we have the Summoner and it suffers the same problem as the Gargoyle. At 60 tons, as good as the Mad Dog is, it is still all alone there. At 45 tons, we have only the Shadow Cat with its locked MASC that not everyone uses and not very many weapon hardpoints nor tonnage. At 40 tons, we have only the Viper which is also currently all alone. At 25 tons, we have only the Mist Lynx that most people cannot get to work for them for multiple reasons. At 20 tons, we have nothing. Add the fact that with the single exception of the Jenner IIC, we do not have a single mech capable of speeds past 140 kph and mostly very slow light mechs in our arsenal, well, need I say more?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 04 August 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

Jep Jorgensson, on 04 August 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

I skimmed your post without actually reading it or paying attention and my foolish assumptions have already been proved wrong

Pay closer attention.
He already mentioned the heads for one - on the MDD he doesn't even list that in his equations

[Jep Jorgensson]

Wence the Wanderer, on 04 August 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

I am a rude drama queen that cannot handle the truth nor civilized discussion.

At least you are trying. Though try using some manners and brain cells next time (even though it hurts your head).

Seriously, if you want to call me on a mistake I made, then go ahead. My mistake is my mistake. That said, dismissing everything I said when I am clearly right (omnimechs vs battlemechs and Clan mechs vs IS mechs and the new tech) and being rude to me about it right off the bat, those ones are on you. Think about it.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 04 August 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

Jep Jorgensson, on 04 August 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

I can be FAR more rude and offensive than you and am determined to prove it!
Not only am I going to not read people's posts!
I am ALSO going to take offense at people pointing that out!
I am going to DEMAND people be polite to me - despite giving them absolutely no reason too!

GRRRR!
ARRRGHH!

SEE what a whining loser I am!

I have to ask what reason you have given me to expect you would have even bothered paying any attention to anything else?

Jep Jorgensson, on 04 August 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

My mistake is my mistake.

THAT right there is the only reason I am even bothering responding to you rather than simply blocking you like the bulk of the other half-witted arseholds in the forum.

It takes a fair ammount of maturity to admit you can make mistakes - maturity NONE of your other posts here even implied you might have.

Edited Edit:
While I will admit that my own post was rather rude, as noted, I had absolutely no reason to believe you would have responded even remotely intelligently to anything but outright mockery

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 04 August 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[CK16]

That is PGI main source of income...like it hate it....they can't and won't change that. Map packs won't sell, there is very ltitle PGI could make for sellable content.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

CK16, on 04 August 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

That is PGI main source of income...like it hate it....they can't and won't change that. Map packs won't sell, there is very ltitle PGI could make for sellable content.

Even less the userbase would be happy about them selling.

[BTGbullseye]

KursedVixen, on 04 August 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Quirks should not be component specific they should be catagory specific like ex. Ballistic Range,Laser Duration, Energy heat,Ballistic Velocity... The only quirk i see that should be specific is PPC Velocity.

I said component specific, not weapon specific. Meaning they should be on the Omnipods, not on the 8/8 set.

I haven't looked into what the quirks themselves are, and I won't, as they are totally useless in an 8/8 set.

[KursedVixen]

BTGbullseye, on 04 August 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

I said component specific, not weapon specific. Meaning they should be on the Omnipods, not on the 8/8 set.

I haven't looked into what the quirks themselves are, and I won't, as they are totally useless in an 8/8 set.

Ok, my bad i misinterpreted that i ask for Surkai in that manner.


some but very little of the omnipod quirks are good aside from the Timberwolf-s which get's really bad quirks if you don't put it together right.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 August 2017 - 10:16 PM.