153 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Alright, many of you may remember when Clan mechs came out, there was only one weapon that was really worth putting into ballistic slots: Gauss. Gauss has been nerfed, UACs were buffed and now there is some semblance of balance between Gauss and UACs, each having a more specific roles.

With this latest nerf package on UACs, we are legitimately going to see a trend of mechs switching back to Gauss rifles only. This is BAD. Please test the UACs on release and provide feedback to show that balance suffers from this round of changes. Perhaps a softer hand is necessary to tone down the DPS slightly, while still leaving the ability to sustain a push so they are more than just an inferior poke weapon.

[FupDup]

UACs and general dakka are hard to balance for since they don't follow a linear "power curve" like one would expect.

What I mean by power curve is the amount of extra "oomf" you get when you use more of the same gun. A linear curve would expect that using two of a gun would be twice as good as one. For dakka, though, their firing rates and relatively low heat make two of them roughly three times as good as one. It's only uphill from here...

I would say that a currently Clan UAC/10 is almost perfectly balanced when you mount one and only one. However, we saw that the pre-nerf Quad UAC/10 Kodiak was brutally overpowered.

I think that the vanilla AC/5 is currently mediocre, if not mildly underpowered when you have a small number of them. And yet, the pre-Kodiak Dakka Mauler was a really strong mech since it could mount five of the things.

Etc.

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

Edited by FupDup, 13 November 2016 - 11:22 PM.

[El Bandito]

Overall power level is decreasing across the board. Gauss/UACs/Clan lasers of today and post patch will not be as strong as that of the past. Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

Alright, many of you may remember when Clan mechs came out, there was only one weapon that was really worth putting into ballistic slots: Gauss. Gauss has been nerfed, UACs were buffed and now there is some semblance of balance between Gauss and UACs, each having a more specific roles.

With this latest nerf package on UACs, we are legitimately going to see a trend of mechs switching back to Gauss rifles only. This is BAD. Please test the UACs on release and provide feedback to show that balance suffers from this round of changes. Perhaps a softer hand is necessary to tone down the DPS slightly, while still leaving the ability to sustain a push so they are more than just an inferior poke weapon.

UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping. It will serve its purpose that is different from that of Gauss. Though to be fair, 12 ton Clan Gauss is still horsedung. IS can't compete with that using their 15 ton Gauss.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 November 2016 - 11:31 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

By adding a CoF or some sort of recoil system, stopping all X amount of guns on hitting the exact same pixel causing massive damage?

I don't know, just throwing **** at a wall, hoping it sticks

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

UACs and general dakka are hard to balance for since they don't follow a linear "power curve" like one would expect.

What I mean by power curve is the amount of extra "oomf" you get when you use more of the same gun. A linear curve would expect that using two of a gun would be twice as good as one. For dakka, though, their firing rates and relatively low heat make two of them roughly three times as good as one. It's only uphill from here...

I would say that a currently Clan UAC/10 is almost perfectly balanced when you mount one and only one. However, we saw that the pre-nerf Quad UAC/10 Kodiak was brutally overpowered.

I think that the vanilla AC/5 is currently mediocre, if not mildly underpowered when you have a small number of them. And yet, the pre-Kodiak Dakka Mauler was a really strong mech since it could mount five of the things.

Etc.

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

Give mechs that can boat them extremely well a downside? For instance, if you have an Assault mech with ballistic mounts that are cockpit level, 4 ballistic hardpoints, the ability to run 70 kph, and run a significant amount of dakka, give that mech some downsides... The ERPPC Gauss version will be okay...

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping.

While they will still fire and do damage, the reduction of efficacy will result in their consideration for use being less than it is now. Considering that there is already a trade off between dakka and PPFLD (and most of the time PPFLD is the way to go), UACs getting nerfed will simply shift power towards PPFLD.

Seriously guys, balance is objective. Saying BS about "being mindful of the risks of double tapping" doesn't change the fact that their downsides make them an objectively worse option, especially when not boated en masse.

[Hadrogh]

I really hate the "more rng" approach. If the goal was to nerf dps why not just increase the cooldown or reduce the dmg?
I don't want to roll a dice in a high dps engagement.

[FireStoat]

As long as UAC's will NEVER EVER EVER jam on the first single shot fired, I'm still great with the weapon. Unfortunately this isn't the case, as I've personally had the damned thing bug out on the first single shot occasionally. Others have reported this too. It's incredibly depressing when it happens and is one of the major reasons why I rely on lasers and missiles so much as a clan player.

[vibrant]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

That's exactly what Ghost Heat is there for, right? It is not the best system, but it's in place and it works well enough... so why don't they simply make it more restrictive for clan UACs instead of nerfing the entire weapon class?

Edited by vibrant, 13 November 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[Bradigus]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

Overall power level is decreasing across the board. Gauss/UACs/Clan lasers of today and post patch will not be as strong as that of the past. Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping. It will serve its purpose that is different from that of Gauss. Though to be fair, 12 ton Clan Gauss is still horsedung. IS can't compete with that using their 15 ton Gauss.

1) Time to kill will only go up for clans against inner sphere mechs. Inner sphere will still kill clans just as fast as before, which is ludicrously quick thanks to no structure or armour quirks on many of the viable clan mechs.

2)UACs will not do good sustainable damage after the nerf. They will be able to do good burst damage, but due to the ridiculously long jam time that you are sure to incur and the time you'd have to keep yourself open to faster firing inner sphere mechs most players worth their salt will switch to the Gauss rifle supplemented with either lasers or particle cannons. Clan ultras were dangerous when fired by a pilot that could lead them against targets that decided to just sit there and take that stream of skittles right at their face. Clan UAC5 versus inner sphere UAC5, the clan uac5 would lose because he had to stare longer and lead more in order to hit the specific weak points of his target, while inner sphere UAC5's can just fire-twist-doubletap-twist.

3) People who like clan mechs would not be so up in arms about this change to ultra autocannons if the regular autocannons didn't suck so much horseshit into them. Why take a weapon that fires the same stream of droopy poo pellets, only slightly faster, but is unable to utilize the strength of that stream the ultra autocannons had by applying spread damage pressure? If clan autocannons fired the same stream, only one less pellet and in a tighter grouping, players would take those weapons as a viable sustained fire alternative to the ultra autocannons. As it stands, clan ultras are STILL better than clan autocannons, which will see themselves phased out of most competitive and viable builds.

[Duke Nedo]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

One way is to use the max reload capacity per 0.5 seconds -> cooldown penalty on ballistics. I.e. if you fire too many "barrels" it takes longer to be ready for another barrage. If you go a little crazy and set that max value rather low, like 15 or 20 (where an AC5 adds 5 and a Gauss adds 15 and a cUAC10 adds 20 on a double tap etc). If you do that, then a single cUAC10 would be better than dual cUAC10 per ton. (Edit: singe Gauss would have a significantly better cooldown that two Gauss being fired simultaneously) It would also require a blanket buff to the base-stat cooldown for all ballistics, but that could be tweaked. That's one way to do it. As extra bonus it also decouples ballistics GH from the main heat GH.... that would be a good thing too!

Otherwise I think the main problem is balancing UACs in general. For only 1 ton extra (for IS, for clans it's a free upgrade) you get double the burst DPS and it is only controlled by RNG... bound to be a bit*h to balance properly. I'd very much like if the UAC mechanic got an overhaul in general. Perhaps a start would be to set a minimum delay before the double-tap of 0.5 secs.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 14 November 2016 - 12:10 AM.

[meteorol]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping.

That's not what will happen though. They will simply switch to Gauss/PPC and be done with UACS.
"People simply have to...." has never worked well with any kind of nerf. People just switch to the next thing.

[Duke Nedo]

On a separate note: I think that UACs in general, both IS and Clans, should be balanced in such a way that the double-tap is an option you may choose to use on the battlefield (like PGI has reasoned here mentioning risk vs. reward) and not a mandatory way to statistically get improved DPS (or reduced as cUAC2's used to be).

If double-tap dps == sustained fire dps on average, then it's a choice.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 14 November 2016 - 12:08 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Duke Nedo, on 14 November 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

On a separate note: I think that UACs in general, both IS and Clans, should be balanced in such a way that the double-tap is an option you may choose to use on the battlefield (like PGI has reasoned here mentioning risk vs. reward) and not a mandatory way to statistically get improved DPS (or reduced as cUAC2's used to be).

If double-tap dps == sustained fire dps on average, then it's a choice.

The issue is they were closed to balanced in their current state, but maybe deserved the heat increase on the 5 and a jam chance nerf to the UAC10. Non-double tapped Clan UACS are a joke, so why bother? In other words, if it gets to the point where you consider not double tapping to be an equal option, then the weapons will be thrown out and Gauss will be used. A sad loss for variety.

[627]

Just a side note, you only see UACs when they can be boated, minimum is 2. I haven't seen a single mech that only fits one UAC beside maybe an Orion IIC with an UAC20. But mostly mechs with only one ballistic come with gauss, especially the heavy mechs (ebonjag, hellby, timby - well the "meta" so to say).

Gauss ist still the strongest gun in the game and if people could boat two on non-assaults they would do it (and they do). UACs are only used because 2 gauss are too heavy for most mechs.

[Bradigus]

627, on 14 November 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

Just a side note, you only see UACs when they can be boated, minimum is 2. I haven't seen a single mech that only fits one UAC beside maybe an Orion IIC with an UAC20. But mostly mechs with only one ballistic come with gauss, especially the heavy mechs (ebonjag, hellby, timby - well the "meta" so to say).

Gauss ist still the strongest gun in the game and if people could boat two on non-assaults they would do it (and they do). UACs are only used because 2 gauss are too heavy for most mechs.

Night Gyrs can put on dual Gauss, which they will switch to completely now that UAC's are going to become worthless.

Which will lead to another veritable avalanche of complaints and obviously the inevitable knee-jerk nerfs that will render that weapon system worthless, shifting everything back to laser vomit. That, or, they'll gut the Night Gyr.

[STEF_]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

Alright, many of you may remember when Clan mechs came out, there was only one weapon that was really worth putting into ballistic slots: Gauss. Gauss has been nerfed, UACs were buffed and now there is some semblance of balance between Gauss and UACs, each having a more specific roles.

With this latest nerf package on UACs, we are legitimately going to see a trend of mechs switching back to Gauss rifles only. This is BAD. Please test the UACs on release and provide feedback to show that balance suffers from this round of changes. Perhaps a softer hand is necessary to tone down the DPS slightly, while still leaving the ability to sustain a push so they are more than just an inferior poke weapon.

100% agree.
Here a link where a dude gives numbers about this nerf:
https://www.reddit.c...o1d&sh=e8ef865c




Ballistic requires more skill..... and that's why he nerfed it??? More jam, and more heat for ac?
I'll put gauss ppc (and srm for brawl) in any mech now. Wow, the diversity...



It's pretty fun to read the quirk thread where the balance overlord """explains"" the changes: it's so fun to read how much he understands his own game
for instance, the super buff for the VIctor, how to differentiate cLpl vs cerLL (which still has that amazing 1.5 sec duration ).
And don't forget the amazing "PXH is a good performancer"

#NOMOREBALANCEBYPOTATO
#Balanceoverlordistier4

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 November 2016 - 12:41 AM.

[LordNothing]

i think i would have done away with double tap. free 2x damage sometimes is a bit overkill. and i would welcome it with lower jam chance and shorter duration, and damage around 1.5 times the rated output on the gun. for this to work you need to change the shot counts to even numbered values. bursts can be 1.5x shot counts long. each of the extra rounds beyond shot count have a jam chance. you can also interrupt the burst at any point by letting go and enter cooldown. if you want full damage you just hold through the entire burst. single tapping lets you safe fire.

option one, long bursts with exactly 1.5 damage potential
uac shots extra damageMult
2___2____1____1.5
5___4____2____1.5
10__6____3____1.5
20__8____4____1.5
say what you want about long bursts, they look damn cool. also worth noting that jam rolls occur for each extra shot, so when you have more extra rounds their jam chance should be less. damage mult is multiplied by weapon size for full burst damage.

option two shorter bursts with variable damage potential
uac shots extra damageMult
2___2____1____1.5
5___3____2____1.67
10__4____2____1.5
20__5____3____1.6
cooldowns on the 5 and 20 slightly longer to compensate for higher damage multiples. bursts on the 10 and 20 are shorter than their current double taps, because there is no pause between taps as its one solid burst.

option three balanced over and under performers
uac shots extra damageMult
2___3____2____1.66
5___2____1____1.5
10__3____1____1.33
20__4____2____1.5
this comes with no cd changes, designed to nerf the 10 and buff the 2.

option four using current burst counts
uac shots extra damageMult
2___1____1____2
5___2____1____1.5
10__3____2____1.6
20__4____2____1.5
uac2 remains the same as current and the 10 may need a small cd nerf to keep it in check

is uac5 omitted, but i think it should be made a burst weapon, but with slightly different numbers to differentiate it from clan (overall shorter burst, but more or less using the same rules). is acs would remain single shot.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2016 - 12:54 AM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping. It will serve its purpose that is different from that of Gauss. Though to be fair, 12 ton Clan Gauss is still horsedung. IS can't compete with that using their 15 ton Gauss.

That isn't how this works. The niche for UACS is DPS. The nerf is a strict nerf to DPS, therefore it is a direct nerf to the niche of UACS.

The DPS decrease is probably big enough to remove them from consideration in comp, that is bad because they were already losing ground to gauss/ppc before this nerf. It will reduce diversity, a lot.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

Overall power level is decreasing across the board. Gauss/UACs/Clan lasers of today and post patch will not be as strong as that of the past. Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

You and your Balance Overlord seem to forget that ballistic requires skill to be effective, while lezors is simply point and click.
And that's why you nerf UAC and AC, adding more jam and more heat?? LOLOL

It is plain stooopid.