153 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

PGI only knows nerf

[DrSaphron]

Honestly the UAC 10 and 20 needed to be nerfed a little, they shred armor so easily that it isn't even funny! +2% jam chance and an 8 second cooldown to clear the jam is just what is needed so that dakka boats don't go around cutting other mechs in half with impunity. The UAC 5 (both IS and Clam) probably got shafted the hardest since it is basically the bread and butter of A LOT of mechs.

The UAC 2 on the other hand kinda got a side grade, not exactly nerfed per se, but it didn't escape the notice The Dart Board of Balance either. I would rather have the increased risk of jamming and be able to clear the jam faster than the other way around, the slight reduction in heat gen is also nice since I run 4 to 5 of them on my Night Gyr as the build dictates.

[LordNothing]

Juodas Varnas, on 13 November 2016 - 11:30 PM, said:

By adding a CoF or some sort of recoil system, stopping all X amount of guns on hitting the exact same pixel causing massive damage?

I don't know, just throwing **** at a wall, hoping it sticks

this is why i suggested a 3bar power draw alternative. ballistics can be ran 2 different ways, for damage or for dps and both need their limits. recoil would do anything from affect accuracy, apply deflections to arms and torso and even damage you if you put out a lot of damage in a short amount of time. vibration management would be a thing.

there would be something like power draw limiting energy weapons, and missile tracking resources which produce ghost spread when overloaded. and some cross effects to keep mixed builds from becoming too meta (as they would be seriously buffed by this system).

it is intuitive, simple, and awesome. which makes it too hard for pgi and a good portion of the player base.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2016 - 01:06 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 November 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

The issue is they were closed to balanced in their current state, but maybe deserved the heat increase on the 5 and a jam chance nerf to the UAC10. Non-double tapped Clan UACS are a joke, so why bother? In other words, if it gets to the point where you consider not double tapping to be an equal option, then the weapons will be thrown out and Gauss will be used. A sad loss for variety.

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

That isn't how this works. The niche for UACS is DPS. The nerf is a strict nerf to DPS, therefore it is a direct nerf to the niche of UACS.

The DPS decrease is probably big enough to remove them from consideration in comp, that is bad because they were already losing ground to gauss/ppc before this nerf. It will reduce diversity, a lot.

It's really two different balance questions here:

1. Single-tap vs. double-tap (c)UAC
2. (c)UAC system vs. other weapons systems

1. Could be balanced like it is being done now by Jam chance and duration, fair enough.
2. If (c)UACs are dependent on double-tap to be useful, then the weapon-system as such needs a buff to mitigate the double-tap nerf.

[Tuann]

i will humbly switch to gauss ppc.

and given the salt allready encountered when doing gaussppc now during drops, it probably will get better after the nerf i guess. :-)

[El Bandito]

meteorol, on 14 November 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

That's not what will happen though. They will simply switch to Gauss/PPC and be done with UACS.
"People simply have to...." has never worked well with any kind of nerf. People just switch to the next thing.

Hah! That will actually force many Clanners to grow more skill, cause Gauss+PPC combo is much harder to pull off than mindless double tapping UACs or using Streak 6s. I'm fine with that. I'll still be lurming and using AC2 macro-fire juuust fine. Heck, this is even better news for brawlers, as PPFLD loses even more badly vs. brawlers.

Not to mention Clanners switching to PPFLD will help curb their power against IS, in Invasion mode, for as little as I care about CW.

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

That isn't how this works. The niche for UACS is DPS. The nerf is a strict nerf to DPS, therefore it is a direct nerf to the niche of UACS.

The DPS decrease is probably big enough to remove them from consideration in comp, that is bad because they were already losing ground to gauss/ppc before this nerf. It will reduce diversity, a lot.

Comp players already switched to PPFLD, even before nerf, therefore it wouldn't change anything for them. This change affects pugs, mostly. As for DPS reduction, CUACs will still have overall more DPS than single fire when double tapped. Someone already calculated it out. So one simply has to make a choice between potentially doing 20-30% more DPS at teh risk of jamming, or to play it safe and single-fire.

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 November 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

You and your Balance Overlord seem to forget that ballistic requires skill to be effective, while lezors is simply point and click.
And that's why you nerf UAC and AC, adding more jam and more heat?? LOLOL

It is plain stooopid.

First of all, you stop being stupid. What's with "Your Balance Overlord", crap? There are very few people in the entire forums who have lower opinion of Paul, than Yours Truly.

Second of all, laser, in the case of CLPL is also getting a nerf. That's why I said TTK overall is increasing--which is what I wanted from the beginning.

Bradigus, on 13 November 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

1) Time to kill will only go up for clans against inner sphere mechs. Inner sphere will still kill clans just as fast as before, which is ludicrously quick thanks to no structure or armour quirks on many of the viable clan mechs.

2)UACs will not do good sustainable damage after the nerf. They will be able to do good burst damage, but due to the ridiculously long jam time that you are sure to incur and the time you'd have to keep yourself open to faster firing inner sphere mechs most players worth their salt will switch to the Gauss rifle supplemented with either lasers or particle cannons. Clan ultras were dangerous when fired by a pilot that could lead them against targets that decided to just sit there and take that stream of skittles right at their face. Clan UAC5 versus inner sphere UAC5, the clan uac5 would lose because he had to stare longer and lead more in order to hit the specific weak points of his target, while inner sphere UAC5's can just fire-twist-doubletap-twist.

3) People who like clan mechs would not be so up in arms about this change to ultra autocannons if the regular autocannons didn't suck so much horseshit into them. Why take a weapon that fires the same stream of droopy poo pellets, only slightly faster, but is unable to utilize the strength of that stream the ultra autocannons had by applying spread damage pressure? If clan autocannons fired the same stream, only one less pellet and in a tighter grouping, players would take those weapons as a viable sustained fire alternative to the ultra autocannons. As it stands, clan ultras are STILL better than clan autocannons, which will see themselves phased out of most competitive and viable builds.

1. Clan TTK increasing against IS mechs is precisely what I wished, as Clanners still have overall edge against the IS, despite quirks. Base tech balance is what I have been advocating from the beginning, and this change will balance IS ACs against CUACs. Eventually I hope that both tech will be equal in terms of relative power so that quirks will only be used on bad mechs, from both sides.

2. You guys talk of leading CUACs against moving targets as something that requires much skill. I played tons of Clan dakka boat, and I find it to be easy.

As for IS UAC5 vs. Clan UAC5--CUAC5 can be boated far more than that of IS UAC5. Heck, IS mech can't even equip two UAC5s without switching to Standard engine, while Clans can fit dual CUAC10s in an XL engine that is ST death proof, while only paying 2 more tons of weight! Again, base tech needs to be more balanced so that IS doesn't have to use quirk crutches even on their best mechs.

3. CACs are not even suppose to be in game. Those weapons are simply testament to PGI's incompetence, and should be removed. If players are up in arms about it, then they should pressure PGI to fins another solution to balance UACs than random jam%.

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

Then you should be supporting the AC5 heat increase, not arguing against me on the other thread. 5xAC5 Mauler will now have to pay 50% more price per alpha, and its sustained fire will definitely take a hit. It cannot spare weights to equip extra DHS.

Too bad, PGI could have saved themselves a lot of grief if they implemented Sized Hardpoints from the start. No more 5xAC5 Mauler.

Davegt27, on 14 November 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

PGI only knows nerf

Huginn, Oxide... there were exceptions. TBF, nerfing Clan base tech is exactly what was needed, for IS to catch up to Clanners fundamentally, without relying on uber quirks, even on their best mechs.
Now I want 12 ton CGauss to be balanced against 15 ton IS Gauss.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 02:25 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Hahahahahaha... here come the "please don't nerf my Dakka beast" threads...

All I can say is.. Eat LRM!

Edited by Vellron2005, 14 November 2016 - 02:22 AM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

Comp players already switched to PPFLD, even before nerf, therefore it wouldn't change anything for them. This change affects pugs, mostly. As for DPS reduction, CUACs will still have overall more DPS than single fire when double tapped. Someone already calculated it out. So one simply has to make a choice between potentially doing 20-30% more DPS at teh risk of jamming, or to play it safe and single-fire.

Mostly switched, there was still a niche for UAC dakka as a firing line strat, and now there isn't.

This is a big decrease in total DPS, enough to push the weapons from good to bad. There is no justification for it, there was no balance problems with UACs.

A weapon system moved from the category of relevant to irrelevant, for no reason.

Not double tapping is not an option, because the weapons aren't good enough to use without double tapping. And now they won't be good enough to use with double tapping either. So just plain bad from beginning to end.

The IS non ultras might still have a use, but very very niche, as there will be very few situation where you'd not rather have a clan gauss+ppc mech for the same job. Especially now that running cooler isn't much of an argument anymore.

The silliest thing about is the nerf to uac20, which was already a terribad weapon.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 November 2016 - 02:29 AM.

[El Bandito]

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

This is a big decrease in total DPS, enough to push the weapons from good to bad. There is no justification for it, there was no balance problems with UACs.

A weapon system moved from the category of relevant to irrelevant, for no reason.

Here I disagree. Yes, the DPS decrease will be noticeable on CUAC5/10/20 (CUAC2 got buffed), but I believe that unless PGI screws up the % calculation, the post patch DPS decrease would not relegate the CUACs into garbage bin.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 02:32 AM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 02:28 AM, said:

Here I disagree. Yes, the DPS decrease will be noticeable on CUAC5/10/20 (CUAC2 got buffed), but I believe that unless PGI screws up the % calculation, the post patch DPS decrease would not relegate the CUACs into garbage bin. Not gonna be as widely used as before, but will still be used.

Still used for the same reason LRMs and Machine guns are still used, because people like fooling around with stuff in the game whether it's good or not.

Won't be used because it's actually better at doing something that anything else though, that reason to use them is gone.

We might see an actual real useful role for LRMs after the patch though. That is an intersting possibility. There hasn't been any real use for LRMs since I started playing so I'm looking forward to that if it happens.

I just wish they didn't remove weapons from relevance randomly, like here with UACs.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 November 2016 - 02:35 AM.

[El Bandito]

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

Still used for the same reason LRMs and Machine guns are still used, because people like fooling around with stuff in the game whether it's good or not.

Won't be used because it's actually better at doing something that anything else though, that reason to use them is gone.

Are you serious? CUACs on average have better DPS than Clan lasers, even using single tap. And its duration is far shorter than that of Clan lasers. Sure you have to lead the target, but that is not such a big issue in mid range fights, where ACs excel thanks to much lower heat. Comp team will stick to PPFLD but so what? They were PPFLD poptarting even before then.

Just the fact that you have equated post patch CUACs to LRMs and MGs disqualifies you from conversing with me in this subject any further.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 02:39 AM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

Are you serious? CUACs on average have better DPS than Clan lasers, even using single tap. And its duration is far shorter than that of Clan lasers. Sure you have to lead the target, but that is not such a big issue in mid range fights, where ACs excel thanks to much lower heat.

Better DPS? Yes. Enough DPS advantage to be worth the downsides? No.

The clan UACs needed a significant DPS advantage to be good weapons, that is their only niche. If that DPS advantage isn't significant enough they turn from having a niche to not having a niche.

Look, I hope I'm wrong. I hope they turn out to still be relevant. I just don't believe they will.

No matter who of us turns out to be correct there was no reason to nerf them, they weren't dominating the meta anywhere. They weren't unbalanced. The change is bad even if some people still uses them, or if there is still some oddball scenario where it's still a good pick.

This is a fragile aspect of weapon balance. Altering the DPS of a DPS weapon. It's just like changing laser duration values, all of a sudden a weapon goes bad from a seemingly small change, like the cERLL and so on.
If a weapon is in a good balanced spot, like the UACs before this patch, you should leave well enough alone to not risk upsetting that fragile balance.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 November 2016 - 02:47 AM.

[vibrant]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

Are you serious? CUACs on average have better DPS than Clan lasers, even using single tap. And its duration is far shorter than that of Clan lasers.

I'm surprised that you'd be so shallow in your comparison, El Bandito. There's many more variables in the balance. Weapon weight (this one is huge), ammo necessity, heat, slot size, etc. Simply saying that CUACs have better DPS is extremely misleading.

[RestosIII]

Vellron2005, on 14 November 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

Hahahahahaha... here come the "please don't nerf my Dakka beast" threads...

All I can say is.. Eat LRM!

I'm pretty sure EVERYONE here knows how much I love gifs, but I have to say... That one is being used so often, I'm getting sick of it. Ya'll need to go gif hunting or make some new material.

[El Bandito]

vibrant, on 14 November 2016 - 02:50 AM, said:

I'm surprised that you'd be so shallow in your comparison, El Bandito. There's many more variables in the balance. Weapon weight (this one is huge), ammo necessity, heat, slot size, etc. Simply saying that CUACs have better DPS is extremely misleading.

Except CUACs are light enough to be boated on top Clan mechs and they were very effective at their jobs as the jam chance was low enough for people to mindlessly double tap everytime. The whole reason why they got nerfed in the first place is because of Mechs like the KDK-3 and Night Gyr boating them. And in CW CUACs had played decisive role on Clan superiority over IS.

IS UAC5 is far more restricted, but it has been nerfed less.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 03:01 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

I still think you're missing the point here. The issue with cUACs mainly was that the double-tap was too powerful compared to single-tap. You could for no cost at all double dps output for a period of time determined by a dice-roll. That mechanic was nerfed a bit, justly so I think.

Now, if DPS-ballistics in general are now too weak relative to PPFLD, then ALL DPS-ballistics needs to be buffed, including IS AC's and whatnot. This still doesn't make it wrong to rein in the double-tap bonus on UACs a bit frankly.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 14 November 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[Vellron2005]

RestosIII, on 14 November 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure EVERYONE here knows how much I love gifs, but I have to say... That one is being used so often, I'm getting sick of it. Ya'll need to go gif hunting or make some new material.

I know I know, it's really used alot.. But it's just sooo damn good for the occasion! And in my defense, today is the first time I'm using it..

[Kmieciu]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

As for IS UAC5 vs. Clan UAC5--CUAC5 can be boated far more than that of IS UAC5. Heck, IS mech can't even equip two UAC5s without switching to Standard engine, while Clans can fit dual CUAC10s in an XL engine that is ST death proof, while only paying 2 more tons of weight! Again, base tech needs to be more balanced so that IS doesn't have to use quirk crutches even on their best mechs.

Quoted for truth.
It's a joke when a Clan medium mech can mount 2xUAC10 in a side torso with XL, while a Shadow Hawk-5M has to use STD engine just to mount 2xUAC5. STD is a waste of tonnage. Shadow hawks get cored super easy. And that mech got a UAC jam quirk reduced last pach, lol.

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

And in CW CUACs had played decisive role on Clan superiority over IS.

That is also true.
In CW you don't see clanners rushing with SRMs on hot maps.
You see 12 timberwolfs or ebon jags, each with 2xUAC10. The only mech that can match their DPS is a super-fragile 3xUAC5 JM6-DD.
If you've got SRMs, they will kill you from range.
If you've got lasers, they will out-DPS you.
If you've got LRMs, PLS uninstall ;-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 November 2016 - 03:21 AM.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

Except CUACs are light enough to be boated on top Clan mechs

This is another reason why this nerf is stoooopid.
Mixed loadout are bad now.
No reason to take 1 or 2 uac
This sucks a lot

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 November 2016 - 03:22 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

627, on 14 November 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

Just a side note, you only see UACs any weapons when they can be boated, minimum is 2. I haven't seen a single mech that only fits one UAC beside maybe an Orion IIC with an UAC20. But mostly mechs with only one ballistic come with gauss, especially the heavy mechs (ebonjag, hellby, timby - well the "meta" so to say).

Gauss ist still the strongest gun in the game and if people could boat two on non-assaults they would do it (and they do). UACs are only used because 2 gauss are too heavy for most mechs.

Fixed that for you.

Single weapons of any flavour (barring (U)AC20 and Gauss) are terrible and not used... well maybe the odd very small mech with a single ERPPC.

Its simply about exposure cost - there is no point exposing yourself to return fire to do just 10 dmg.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 November 2016 - 03:22 AM.