139 replies to this topic

[jss78]

My favourite way of making them useful would be to have AI-controlled combined arms assets in the game. Say you have infantry, who spread formation and take cover as they spot a mech. They have stuff like SRMs (possibly with inferno rounds) so you can't afford to ignore them. Do you start picking them off one by one with your ERPPC/LPL -- It's slow, overkill damage-wise, and builds up tons of heat. Or -- sweep the area for a few seconds with twin/quad MG's. Done, zero heat, move on.

As long as we don't have infantry, yeah, buff the damage a bit, and remove the cone of fire. Even in tabletop they're not THAT useless ... quad-MG's did the damage of a large laser (8 points). And they didn't come with a to-hit penalty (=cone of fire) where other weapons didn't.

Edited by jss78, 14 November 2016 - 10:55 PM.

[MacClearly]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

As long as something is incorporated into this game, it should be useful.

So the options are either,

- remove MGs from the game, because their intended use is not represented.
- make MGs useful in this game.


... and I think taking unique weapons *out* of this game is something we should avoid.

Currently for the tonnage then, mg's are about right then. Personally I would like some parts of the game to at least make some cursory sense. I know it's a big stompy robot game, but the idea of paltry machine guns piercing my mechs armour is asinine. So I can accept it being a unique crit seeker as it is. In my opinion though it needs zero boost.

As far as flamers go, I would absolutely like to see them ripped from the game. The very last thing this game needs is a troll weapon. Especially one that encourages face hugging. I have got more than a few tk's because of people using flamers. The only upside I have found is that I went from having one head shot, to 8 because of flamers (and me not being a terribly good shot...)

[MacClearly]

Weaselball, on 14 November 2016 - 08:55 PM, said:

Posted without text, because there is the dirty "S" word in there that would bypass the filter. But basically, no man. No.

Your stunning selfie aside, yes man, yes. Machine guns need zero buff and flamers need to be ripped from the code. Since the timeline is out the window especially with the Bushwaker (and maybe Uziel) on the horizon, we should be pushing pgi for heavy lazors and x-pulse. I get that we will likely not agree but certainly you can appreciate there is a ton of cool weapons on the horizon that would be much better use of development time.

Edited by MacClearly, 14 November 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[RestosIII]

'sees a man arguing that flamers shouldn't exist and that MGs should never be buffed, let alone be as "powerful" as they are right now'



I can only laugh at a joke for so long. You've crossed the line for it being a joke. May God have mercy on this thread.

Edited by RestosIII, 14 November 2016 - 11:20 PM.

[jss78]

MacClearly, on 14 November 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Currently for the tonnage then, mg's are about right then. Personally I would like some parts of the game to at least make some cursory sense. I know it's a big stompy robot game, but the idea of paltry machine guns piercing my mechs armour is asinine. So I can accept it being a unique crit seeker as it is. In my opinion though it needs zero boost.

As far as flamers go, I would absolutely like to see them ripped from the game. The very last thing this game needs is a troll weapon. Especially one that encourages face hugging. I have got more than a few tk's because of people using flamers. The only upside I have found is that I went from having one head shot, to 8 because of flamers (and me not being a terribly good shot...)

The thing is though, it's not a "paltry" machine gun, but a 0.5-ton machine gun. For comparison, here's a 0.3-ton real-life "MG" (cannon really, the GAU-8 Avenger):

Spoiler

Also, it doesn't really "pierce" your armour -- as we don't have through-armour-criticals. That it does damage merely says that it's gradually wearing down the armour. Sounds about right?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

How are there still so many people just constantly posting that the machine guns shouldn't damage mechs much at all and keep thinking of them as little infantry machine guns instead of half ton shell spitters?

The closest thing in real life we have to the machine guns in battletech that I know about would be a GAU-8.
https://en.wikipedia...i/GAU-8_Avenger

It was designed specifically for anti tank roles, is a 30mm 7 barreled rotary autocannon, and is 281 KG, leaving it at just about half of what the BT machine guns are.

Even going off ingame's increased ammo supplies, the shells the MG fires would be about a pound each. The gun's a full blown automatic cannon.

[GreyNovember]

MacClearly, on 14 November 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Currently for the tonnage then, mg's are about right then. Personally I would like some parts of the game to at least make some cursory sense. I know it's a big stompy robot game, but the idea of paltry machine guns piercing my mechs armour is asinine. So I can accept it being a unique crit seeker as it is. In my opinion though it needs zero boost.

As far as flamers go, I would absolutely like to see them ripped from the game. The very last thing this game needs is a troll weapon. Especially one that encourages face hugging. I have got more than a few tk's because of people using flamers. The only upside I have found is that I went from having one head shot, to 8 because of flamers (and me not being a terribly good shot...)

Considering these weapons weigh as much as a small laser, without ammunition, I find it puzzling you are so adamant about kicking them while they're down.

Also, " Troll weapon "?

If by troll you mean render you combat incapable, because " Haha, look what I did to you ", legging someone with literally any other weapon is just as effective. Hell, more so due to permanence. I keep a flamer on you and threaten to shut you down, or I blow off your leg, and leave you for the LRMs.

That's trolling, right?

[762 NATO]

I find machine guns very useful. The are fantastic at tearing all that MC paint and patterns off. Its my personal middle finger to those who take pride in their paint/camo/deckles. And damn all the little jerks running around messing up my paint. At the same goes for people slinging PPCs at me and hitting at 1000m. Paint-job-messing-up-jerks.

Cheers!

Edited by 762 NATO, 14 November 2016 - 11:54 PM.

[Dogstar]

I can't find a copy on the internet but I can guarantee that the original Battletech boardgame had MG weapon systems because they were mounted on the Warhammer which was one of the original mechs in the game. They did 2 damage at up to 3 hexes range.

So just like PPCs, Medium Lasers, AC5s ,and all the other IS weapon systems they've been in the game since day one when it was pure mech v mech combat.

The problem with MGs is that in the TT game they were the best weapon to boat as they do the most damage per turn per ton with no heat which is why PGI have nerfed them into oblivion.

MGs do need to be improved, but only a bit.

[Dogstar]

>but the idea of paltry machine guns piercing my mechs armour is asinine
That's because your mental model of the in-game technology doesn't match the original designers model.

TLDR: you're wrong

[Stealthrider]

Am I the only one that thinks they're okay as-is?

Granted, they're not fantastic on their own, but they're not supposed to be a primary weapon anyway. They're (just barely) good enough at their role IMO, crit-seeking finish-them-off weapons. They do that job pretty okay at the moment, if you've got a bunch of them. Less than a bunch, not so much, but for the tonnage investment is that really a big issue? I mean, for two tons IS-side you can have two MGs and a ton of ammo to add to your firepower if you can't bring anything else. Not a huge investment, not a huge payoff, but it's not THAT inefficient unless you're spamming the MGs against armor, in which case you're doing it wrong anyway and shouldn't be rewarded for it.

I dunno, I just feel like they get a bad rap that isn't necessarily deserved. They're a niche weapon, not necessarily an awful one.

[GreyNovember]

Stealthrider, on 15 November 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

Am I the only one that thinks they're okay as-is?

Granted, they're not fantastic on their own, but they're not supposed to be a primary weapon anyway. They're (just barely) good enough at their role IMO, crit-seeking finish-them-off weapons. They do that job pretty okay at the moment, if you've got a bunch of them. Less than a bunch, not so much, but for the tonnage investment is that really a big issue? I mean, for two tons IS-side you can have two MGs and a ton of ammo to add to your firepower if you can't bring anything else. Not a huge investment, not a huge payoff, but it's not THAT inefficient unless you're spamming the MGs against armor, in which case you're doing it wrong anyway and shouldn't be rewarded for it.

I dunno, I just feel like they get a bad rap that isn't necessarily deserved. They're a niche weapon, not necessarily an awful one.

It becomes an issue when they're the only ballistic option on chassis with subpar hardpoint counts and types.

Lights with 4MGs would most certainly prefer those be E hardpoints for Small lasers instead.

[Dogstar]

The Spider and the Firestarter get 4 ballistic mounts (on some variants) and are fitted with MGs as stock. Which is fine in the TT game as it gives you a bit of bite if you're willing to close in on the big boys.

However in MWO 4 MGs and a ton of ammo could instead be applied to give you a significantly bigger XL engine which will make you a fair bit faster (probably the difference between 110kph and 130kph or more but it all depends).

Alternatively it gets you a LPL instead of an LL, or two extra MLs.

Which means that if there are significantly better choices then the MGs are, by implication, underpowered. Ideally your choice of weaponry should be down to preferred playstyle, not min maxed meta.

There's two design problems contributing to the above - firstly speed and agility are too strong factor when building mechs because there are no downsides to a fast mech, and secondly MGs are a fair bit underpowered.

[TheLuc]

This weapon for the A-10 Warthog airplane is 1.9 tons with no ammo in it, with a fire rate of 70 shots per second and its closer to a BT small size rotary autocannon than a machine gun which we don't have in MWO. BTs machine guns are closer to, lets say a oversized M2 Browning ( pictured below )



Now that for the MWO machine guns, I too would like a little boost of damage for them but as it stand its just the kind of weapon to fire with something else. MGs are not meant to be stand alone weapons and I'm okay with that too.

Edited by TheLuc, 15 November 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Kmieciu]

I feel we've been discussion this subject for the last 4 years. Bottom line always is, the machineguns will never be balanced.

Lets look at the IS Small Laser: 3 damage within 0.75 seconds. Almost pinpoint - it's very easy to hold the beam on one component. That's 4 DPS for the duration of the beam.

You can spend the cooldown torso twisting, disengaging or hiding behind cover. Not staring at your enemy and taking his return fire. It's better to twist away and spread damage than to stare at your opponent, because you can use the armor on at least 5 components to soak up damage. You can even jump jet and tank with your legs.

Anyone using machineguns is leaving himself open for a deadly precise attack. Nowadays we've got Novas with 9 SPL that can alpha strike for 54 damage. (twice on terra therma, to be exact).
You don't want to be using a constant-fire weapon.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 November 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Great thread.

Hey PGI, for a start, up the damage value to 0.1 instead of 0.08. Still sh7t but at least not total sh7t. Its a nice easy change and a step in the right direction. You can even mess with quirks and use your favorite go to phrases like:

We think this weapon is under performing relative to the baseline and the data suggests that we needed to normalize its damage to the desired target value. Mechs with MG quirks have been adjusted to reflect this normalization...
...or whatever BS you need to spout to allow you to pretend that you know what you are doing here.

But for us players? We just want the weapons...any weapons...that are in the game to not suck. So do us a solid here and make MGs not be absolutely terrible.

[Trollfeed]

Making machine guns viable would make light mechs and mixed builds better, can't have that eh? More than half of the light mechs have variants with ballistic slots on them and only ballistic weapon light mech can comfortably fit is a machine gun.

Anyone claiming that kit fox with 3 medium lasers and 4 machine guns would be op if machine guns had dps in somewhere between small and medium lasers needs to get their head checked.

Edited by Trollfeed, 15 November 2016 - 05:16 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 14 November 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

MGs and AC2s do the same damage on the TT. They should buff MGs to eliminate the cone of fire and to match AC2 DPS and see what happens...

Unlikely to happen, especially for a weapon that currently generates NO heat AND has no cooldown. So how often is 0.08dmg being applied? 10 rounds/sec or 0.8 DPS zero heat, if I am reading Smurfy is right.

Crit chance +6% to do 0.72dmg, +3% to do 1.44dmg, +1% to do 2.16dmg

And Battletech was not FASA first rodeo. One of the reasons majority of the first set of mechs were jacks of all trades. Why fire an AC10 at infantry when you had MGs for suppression?

And I did mention that massed MG in Solaris boardgame, a high heat environment, were deadly due to the no heat and no cooldown? Without limited hardpoints like MWO and other games, mechs could pack on MG arrays unless the GM placed restrictions on mech construction.

[SOL Ranger]

This thread warms my heart, so many MG enthusiasts.






I would personally prefer 0.10 damage and 240m range to make them more suppressive and flexible in their nature, but I'll take anything right about now.

We need the Piranha too, and a MG ROF module, also MG arrays, Heavy MG's and lets not forget Light AC/2's.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Because when the 12MG Piranha is launched, all your base will belong to him! Muhahahahaha