39 replies to this topic

[Pvt Dancer]

One thing I always enjoyed was the Axeman and the Hatchetman battlemechs due to their close combat capabilities. There were even rules to pick up legs and use them as makeshift clubs!

But as you end up playing alot of battlemech like I did, you tend to realise that close combat is really a old school mech's game because people could actually survive long enough to get close! The inclusion of the Clans and the 'Inner sphere' levels of technology made it so mechs could have redonkulious amounts of firepower slapped onto them and the only real limit was tonage and free slots internally.The ability of mechs surviving long enough to do a 'Death from Above' or Charge, much less a punch or a kick in the day and age of the Clans is... limited.

But, one had to wonder why other close combat weapons were not created back in the early days? And then one has to ask, why where shields never developed? As the old battletech Compendium explained it, there was no difference between what kind of weapon was used (sword, mace, axe, ect), it was all treated the same (a kick to a upper torso location). To use a weapon, you were not able to use ranged weapons in that arm, this was the trade off.

For a shield, one would have to consider it as pretty much extra armor to cover certain locations. I always envisioned it as 'Left arm', 'Left Torso', 'Left Rear Torso' and the mech has a choice to move it 'one' location over in some degree... to either 'Center Torso', 'Center Rear Torso', or even 'Left Leg' or 'Head'... but 'Left Arm' and either front or rear Left Torso had to be covered that made sense with that 3rd location with the direction you wanted to defend from. I also figured that it would have the same limits as a melee weapon... you wouldn't be able to fire any weapons from those locations the shield is covering... because you would shoot your own shield! As for weight and protection of the shield, I figured 1 internal slot equals 1 ton of armor (16pts of armor), max 3 slots, minimum .5. This is so even light mechs could use it, as well as heavy mechs. The balance to an arguement of 'Why not use two shields?' is this... you should not be able to 'double up' shields over any location (Center, Rear Center, or Head are the only possible ones) and well... your not able to fire either arm weapons and your torso slots are /extreamly/ limited. I also pictured that on a Charge, all damage goes to the Shield first, then transfers through the arm... if your the one doing the charging! You could even create a 'default' storage location to free up your hands as Center Rear Torso (thus covering your Rear Torsos!), but only if you do not have jump jets located in your Torsos... then your stuck with it on your arm.... but of course your free to do with it as you wish for your game!

Anyway... this has always been a pipe dream of mine, and something I came up with in my Battletech games... maybe some of you will want to use it as well.

On a related subject, I was thinking about this as I wrote the above... two handed weapons? Can hold in one hand, but can attack using both hands (can't use either arm for ranged weapons that turn) but you do 1.5 kick damage to a upper body location? Give a new meaning to the Highlander or Claymore!

[Atlas3060]

The TT already has rules on shields, developed in 3065 protoyped and produced in '67 by the Lyrans.
Mostly useful in Solaris because the hinderance of movement will nearly kill you out in the battlefield.

Quote

But, one had to wonder why other close combat weapons were not created back in the early days?

At the moment I don't see anything in the fluff explaining it, but if I had to guess it would be due to the way battles were fought back then.

Move, counter move, fire off a few rounds, and someone will retreat. In the early days any damage to a 'Mech was worth going back to get repaired since they didn't have much to begin with. Losing tonnage for a shield which will lower your speed and basically using armor you probably can't afford for a slab of metal like that was impractical so it wasn't commonplace.

[John Clavell]

I'd love to see melee combat, it's a big part of table top, and is an evoking part of the canon. PGI has said it's something they would love to bring to the table, but are currently unsure how to pull it off successfully. It's certainly a really difficult thing to get right in a real-time action simulation game. If they can solve this, with a really good design I'd be more than excited to see Hatchetmen launching themselves at you, and Atlas Battlemechs getting a direct punch on your cockpit.

Edited by John Clavell, 12 December 2011 - 05:10 AM.

[Tweaks]

It all depends if PGI decides to implement melee combat or not. From the FAQ, they seem to be having trouble to implement it.

Edited by Tweaks, 12 December 2011 - 01:47 PM.

[HanaYuriko]

This was one of the custom designs for a Solaris VII MegaMek server (TAC:S7). http://lady-die.devi...abatae-40337893


Using it was fairly effective against number of different designs since the shield was able to soak up a lot of damage. If an opponent kicked you, the leg spikes would return some of the damage, while the X-Pulse Lasers afforded a measure of range and accuracy. With the rules for mounting a shield, you weren't able to add jump jets which limited it's mobility.

Stats below:

Spoiler

Type/Model: Andabatae TAC-S7-M
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3062
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Custom design

Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 375 GM XL Fusion with Supercharger
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 [108.0] km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
1 Large Shield
4 Spikes
1 Bloodhound Probe
1 Angel ECM Suite
4 Med X-Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Andabatae TAC-S7-M
Mass: 75 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 114 pts Endo Steel 14 4.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 3 RA, 4 LT, 4 RT, 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Engine: 375 XL Fusion 12 19.50
Engine Supercharger: (CT) 1 2.00
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8 [10]
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 13 Double [26] 0 3.00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Small Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 4 2.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 231 pts Standard 0 14.50
Armored Cowl (UK): + 5 pts 1 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 23 34
Center Torso (Rear): 12
L/R Side Torso: 16 24/24
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 12 24/24
L/R Leg: 16 32/32

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Shield LA 0 7 6.00
1 Spikes LA 0 1 .50
1 Bloodhound Probe RT 0 3 2.00
1 Angel ECM Suite RT 0 2 2.00
4 Med X-Pulse Lasers LT 24 4 8.00
1 Spikes HD 0 1 .50
1 Spikes LL 0 1 .50
1 Spikes RL 0 1 .50
1 Mace (THB) RH 5 5.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 24 77 75.00
Crits & Tons Left: 1 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 26,653,550 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,809 (old BV = 1,545)
Cost per BV2: 14,733.86
Weapon Value: 1,857 / 1,857 (Ratio = 1.03 / 1.03)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 24; MRDmg = 5; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 5, Armor/Structure: 6/3
Damage PB/M/L: 8/3/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MH; Point Value: 18
Specials: ecm, prb

==Overview:==

The Andabatae is the epitome of Solaris 7 arena combat, in more ways than one. Originally commissioned by the Solaris government as part of a multi-faceted advertising campaign, the Andabatae's design documents made no mention of the performance specs. Instead they outlined an image, a "spokes-mech" who's form was born in a vast, cross-referenced database of fan-mail, news articles, spectator polls, and top five lists. The result was filtered through the best graphic designers and advertising agencies in the Free Worlds League, then it was put out to bid.

The Project managers were flooded with bids, ranging from high tech prototypes, to redressed stingers, to tractors patched together from battlefield scraps. The wining bid was a heavily modified and unrecognizable Shadow Hawk. Three prototype Andabataes were literally scraped together in 2 weeks by "Hack and Slash" a startup 'mech design firm based in Xolara. During the weeks of shooting and re-shooting "action" footage for the ad campaign, the prototypes repeatedly failed to stand up to even the gentlest treatment. The numerous spikes would interfere with actuator movement, or just shear off entirely. The rebuilt arm actuators proved unable to hold the 'mech's enormous shield for more than a few minutes before stripping gears, and overheating. By the end of the second week, the owners of "Hack and Slash" were forced to declare bankruptcy, after absorbing the tremendous cost of repairs and redesigns.

Desperate to finish their advertisement campaign, which culminated in an exhibition match at the Colosseum, the Solaris government asked VEST to bring at least one of the prototypes to combat readiness. The engineers at VEST literally laughed at the prospect, telling the government that the prototypes were hopeless and inherently flawed. Too far along in their campaign to back out now, the project managers pleaded with VEST to find a solution. Reluctant to pass up a "blank check" the design team at VEST set to work redesigning the Andabatae from the ground up, keeping as much of the outward appearance as possible.

The resulting 'mech surpassed the Government's wildest dreams, and nightmares. The sixty million C-bill price tag was more than the first three prototypes combined. However the new 'mech withstood everything they could throw at it, and the resulting combat footage was so spectacular that none of the original prototype footage found it's way into the campaign at all. Teamed with VEST's best Test pilot Lorri "Mountain Queen" Bent, the Andabatae utterly crushed the Thunderbolt it was paired against in the Colosseum. The match generated all the publicity the Solaris Government could have hoped for, and enormous demand for the Andabatae. VEST has teamed up with Earthworks to start a limited production run in an effort to capitalize on the popularity.


==Capabilities:==

The Andabatae is more than just a pretty face. VEST has incorporated state of the art technology, and a few unique innovations to bring this "pretty-boy" up to the standards of the Innersphere's premier 'mech design firm. The 'mech benefits heavily from lessons learned form earlier VEST prototypes.

During the research into pilot survivability that prompted the design of the Great Turtle, VEST experimented with heavily armored cockpits and head assemblies but abandoned this approach in favor of more extreme protection. The head assembly on the Andabatae follows the more measured, and arguably more effective method of armoring the head and cockpit that was originally developed for the Great Turtle. The resulting "Helmet" is the most striking and fitting feature of the Andabatae, which is named after roman gladiators that wore heavy eyeless helmets and fought without sight.

The massive shield carried in the left arm is an evolution of the shield carried by the Sasquatch, the shape has been refined to allow a greater range of motion for the arm that caries it, and reinforced spikes have been added in an effort to bolster both the offensive and defensive effectiveness. The Spikes have proved useful in both roles. On the offensive, they aid significantly in the now popular "shield bash" attack, adding not only to the structural damage dealt, but visibly increasing the superficial damage as well. "Bashes" from the Andabatae's shield are crowd pleasers, proving carnage and mayhem beyond a simple shield bash. One the defensive, the Spikes act to deflect oncoming physical attacks and damage weapons and limbs that strike the shield.

The Lance carried in the Right arm is the same style carried by the Volkh, but the mount has been re-engineered. The Lances on the Volkh are prone to heavy structural damage, and frequently need replacing. The Andabatae's right forearm incorporates a system of mounts and couplings that allow for quick and easy replacement of not only the lance, but the reinforcements and structure of the whole lower arm, effectively making the right arm an "omni" mount for physical weapons. VEST already has several alternative forearm assemblies with various physical weapons installed. Andabatae owners can purchase custom forearm mounts directly form VEST.

The right torso houses four Martell-X medium pulse lasers, the same lasers found on the Sasquatch. VEST biggest disappointment in testing the Sasquatch was the tendency for the shield in the adjacent arm to block the torso mounted lasers' line of sight. The Andabatae mounts the lasers in the opposite torso from the shield, thus reducing the chance of blocking your own field of fire. This allows the Andabatae to maintain an offensive stance, while utilizing the shield to it's fullest potential.

The final piece of the Andabatae is the top of the line sensor suite. Perhaps the VEST engineers were looking to get the most out of their "blank check", or maybe they were impressed with the success of Solaris Arm's Onslaught and its powerful ECM suite. In either case the Andabatae spares no expense on its electronics. The left torso is home to both an Angel ECM suite, and a Bloodhound active probe. The probe's extended range and increased sensitivity give the Andabatae a decided edge in urban and other dense environments such as the Factory, or the Jungle arenas. This is only enhanced by the ECM suite's superior jamming abilities, effectively blinding opponents in those same dense environments, and rending their advances electronics useless.

[Mason Grimm]

Tweaks, on 12 December 2011 - 05:24 AM, said:

It all depends if PGI decides to implement melee combat or not. From the first QNA, they seem to be having trouble to implement it.

This was posted in the Frequently Asked Questions, which can be located HERE

Quote

Q. Will MechWarrior® Online™ have Mech melee combat?

A. At this point in time we are not looking at melee combat. We may revisit melee combat if we can design something that is fun and does not compromise the overall gameplay experience.

[Hunter McGee]

J Echo, on 12 December 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

What rot! No, thank you. Sword-fighting mecha--BTTT canon or not--have no place in Mechwarrior. Keep that Japarobot crap in Gundam, please.

Happily, the developers of Mechwarrior Online have had the sense to ditch a bunch of canon crap such as hyperarticulation and overcontrolling. How do we know this? Well, even if one ignores the 2009 trailer, the new cockpit screenshots clearly show a tank-mech setup (one joystick, one throttle, and pedals) instead of your Japamecha setup (one joystick for each arm, etc.). This gives me hope that they may yet ignore all of the horrid suggestions which people are making in an effort to turn something unique into yet another one of the countless drivel.

If they ever do implement melee, I hope it's done realistically--i.e. down-to-earth physics-based torso-twist arm-rams, not humanly-articulated robot arms flailing about. There's no reason why twisting your torso to slam your gun barrel into the other mech's head shouldn't cause damage, but fighting with axes/swords/shields and actually punching and kicking is just ridiculous.

J Echo, you fail to recall that the primary control of your 'Mech was done through the Neural interface connectors in the Neurohelmet. Also, try to be a little less vitriolic in your condemnation of certain tech that you disagree with. Just because you do not like melee combat in Mechs, does not mean that everyone else dislikes it as well... If you don't like it, don't use it, simple as that. Kind of like changing the radio station, If you don't like metal rap, change the channel.

Your post makes it sound as though you fear the Ax wielding 'Mech. I for one hope they find a way to implement it as soon as possible.

[CaveMan]

Hunter McGee, on 12 December 2011 - 08:14 AM, said:

J Echo, you fail to recall that the primary control of your 'Mech was done through the Neural interface connectors in the Neurohelmet.

Actually that's subject to interpretation. A lot of the older source material had neurohelmets mainly as a reference for the 'Mech's gyro and not as control system in itself. The only direct neural control was in a couple of experimental systems that ultimately drove the pilot crazy.

Personally I prefer neural control be kept to a minimum. That IMO is way too anime. (next we'll be finding out 'Mechs have human souls inside them) Joysticks and physical buttons are much cooler.

I do like hatchets, they make sense for urban 'Mech-on'Mech fighting (they're basically just big clubs that you can't have knocked out of your hand), but things like swords and shields and polearms are going too far.

[KingCobra]

Where do we go from here i have played a mecha game with shields,swords,axes,and shielding from weapons damage it was called(Age of Armor)here is a clip
you can find other vids that show more sword&shield action but look at the mechs there gundum style mechs not battletech.I cant say it would be practicle in Mechwarrior for only one reason the non melee mechs have no defence againt a melee mech once in close the shield would block balistic& laser weapons and the sword & axe would crush limbs real fast.I think that all mechs would have to be outfitted with melee shields & weapons + the other loadouts to balance the combat aspect.You would have to have a melee nonmelee key to change from one mode to another during gameplay.Transformers does this action well from one combat mode to another.Of course look at the differences in mecha designs.

Edited by KingCobra, 12 December 2011 - 08:38 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Pvt Dancer, on 12 December 2011 - 04:35 AM, said:

-snip-

Axes and shields, you say?

Have a Valiant - a canon 'Mech (albeit one from ~3068) conceived as a "light (30t) battlefield skirmisher" that has both an axe (though one variant switches it out for a sword-like vibroblade) and a shield!

[EDMW CSN]

With all due respect, if you can get caught by a Hatchetman that can only run 64 kph and carries a mere 6.5 tons of armor [the leg and arm armor is so thin that a single AC-10 could nearly chop it off, a gauss will CHOP that entire thing off]. You really deserved a chop to the face with that Hatchet.

Same for getting caught by an Atlas.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 12 December 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

caveman is correct, the most recent TechManual by Catalyst neatly lays
out mech close-combat and the neurohelmet. Basically the neurohelmet
only scans the brain for balance signals, there is no input cause that
would fry your brain. Punching someone is as easy as; you target them
get the target in range, lock on and click a button. The Battlemechs
computer is powerful enough to do everything else for you. As for kicking
well that's just a powerful 'half-step' is it not?

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 12 December 2011 - 11:45 AM.

[Dihm]

The TechManual really is a fun read.

[EDMW CSN]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Punching someone is as easy as; you target them get the target in range, lock on and click a button. The Battlemechs computer is powerful enough to do everything else for you. As for kicking well that's just a powerful 'half-step' is it not?

And the result is nothing but satisfying

[Tweaks]

Mason Grimm, on 12 December 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:

This was posted in the Frequently Asked Questions, which can be located HERE

My bad, I'll correct my post. Although, I was referring to this from the QNA1:

Quote

Though I would say that the biggest impasse we’ve come across is melee combat; that’s a system we don’t want to tackle until we know we can do it right.

Edited by Tweaks, 12 December 2011 - 01:49 PM.

[Pvt Dancer]

Barring if you like melee combat or not, it is part of the game. Death from above, charging, punching and kicking are basics and core elements of the game. I have to hope they can at least do collission damage... even World of Tanks has collission damage and ramming.

[Fresh Meat]

it will not happen

[gossk]

When playing tabel top, there is allot of fun having a claw and mace. trippel str. with a mace DRT

[Kenyon Burguess]

melee is good in cities and heavy forests where mechs like the hatchetman and axman excel. im ok with weapons. I'm also ok with punches to the upper torso. but kicks are only for stomps on ground targets. seeing a standing kick to the face from one mech to another is a deal breaker for me...even if i do love my gundams

[Brenden]

You want 'mechs with sheilds? Here is one: SASQUATCH