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Is Chasis To Match Speed With Linebacker


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#1 SilentScreamer

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:56 AM

The Linebacker is a bit of unique mech right now, a heavy mech with a top speed above 100 kph.

There are cannon IS heavies capable of the same speed as the Linebacker: the Exterminator and the Lancelot to name two. Both are Starleague era mechs heavy on energy loadouts. Are these worth adding to MWO? The Lancelot with high mounted hardpoints and the "barrel arms" also carried by the Jagermech and Rifleman seems like it would be a match for the hill hugging players.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lancelot
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Exterminator

#2 FupDup

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:58 AM

The Dragon and Quickdraw with an engine of XL360 or above already do this. They aren't exactly good mechs, but they can fit the bill for speed.

Really though, there are diminishing returns for going that fast (i.e. less weight for gunz). Once you get above 90 then you're already good to go for the most part. You only need to go faster if you want a bigger engine to fit more DHS (boating medium sized lasers or something).

#3 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:00 AM

That and being dependent on isXL glass engine simply means your opponents do not need take out your CT, only one of your side torsos. Most of the Clan Battlemechs even have structural bonuses.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 November 2016 - 10:01 AM.


#4 Spheroid

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:06 AM

Jagermech III could match it. Engine cap would be above 400 based on its stock 325XL.

#5 Wintersdark

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:39 AM

View PostFupDup, on 20 November 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Dragon and Quickdraw with an engine of XL360 or above already do this. They aren't exactly good mechs, but they can fit the bill for speed.

Really though, there are diminishing returns for going that fast (i.e. less weight for gunz). Once you get above 90 then you're already good to go for the most part. You only need to go faster if you want a bigger engine to fit more DHS (boating medium sized lasers or something).


Mostly due to the fact that as engine size increases, the tons required to increase ground speed by a given amount (that is, tons per 5 points of engine rating) increase. This makes engines >360 really extremely inefficient; you're way better off downgrading to a 350-360 basically always (with the potential exception of small/medium laser boating, as you said).

Mind you, I don't think any IS heavies allow >360 rated engines, so there's that.

But that's the reality of it anyways, using larger engines gets you a trivially small extra bit of speed at a huge cost.

Going from 300 -> 325 costs 3.5 tons
Going from 325 -> 350 costs 3 tons
Going from 350 -> 375 costs 4.5 tons
Going from 375 -> 400 costs 7 tons.

#6 FupDup

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:44 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 20 November 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

...
Mind you, I don't think any IS heavies allow >360 rated engines, so there's that.
...

One Grasshopper is 365 and one of the Black Knights goes up to 385.

Not like it makes much of a difference, but still worth mentioning for record-keeping purposes.

#7 Barantor

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:46 AM

Jester with max engine comes close and has some pretty good arm mounts, with enough weight for jumpjets.

IS has a hard time matching it because the IS XL engines can be a glass jaw for heavies.

#8 martian

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:48 AM

View PostSilentScreamer, on 20 November 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

The Linebacker is a bit of unique mech right now, a heavy mech with a top speed above 100 kph.

There are cannon IS heavies capable of the same speed as the Linebacker: the Exterminator and the Lancelot to name two. Both are Starleague era mechs heavy on energy loadouts. Are these worth adding to MWO? The Lancelot with high mounted hardpoints and the "barrel arms" also carried by the Jagermech and Rifleman seems like it would be a match for the hill hugging players.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lancelot
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Exterminator

1) As you have noticed, the Lancelot is very similar to RFL-5D Rifleman. Perhaps the only advantage would be a higher engine cap.

2) As for the Exterminator, you would end up with something as the Quickdraw - predominatly enrgy boat with one or two missile hardpoints (one model had one MG, so one ballistic hardpoint too).

#9 Bombast

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:49 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 20 November 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Going from 375 -> 400 costs 7 tons.


But you also get that sweet, sweet 6th engine heat sink slot.

As for the OP... I don't think there's really a good IS match to the Linerbacker. This is one of those situations where 14 slot Endo and Ferro really, really hurt.

#10 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:55 AM

A 60 ton 'Mech has 21 tons available with an XL 360 engine, Endo, and two points of armor knocked off of the head. That's only one ton more than a Blackjack on an XL 265, and one less than a Blackjack on an XL 225. To be properly effective in comparison with the LBK, you are going to need:

> 6xE+2xM (with laser duration quirks at minimum)
> 8xE (with laser range quirks at minimum)
> 2xE + Jump Jets (with hefty PPC quirks)

Ballistics are a total non-starter. The only one that almost doesn't suck up too much tonnage for its damage rating is the LB-10X, and we are all familiar with its deficiencies. If all of the lasers are in the torso and at most one arm, we might be able to squeeze a Gauss and five Mediums in with 25 shots, but we need medium laser range and ballistic cool-down to make that tenable. And I don't mean 10%, we need 20% at least.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 20 November 2016 - 10:56 AM.


#11 Barantor

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 11:02 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 20 November 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

A 60 ton 'Mech has 21 tons available with an XL 360 engine, Endo, and two points of armor knocked off of the head. That's only one ton more than a Blackjack on an XL 265, and one less than a Blackjack on an XL 225. To be properly effective in comparison with the LBK, you are going to need:

> 6xE+2xM (with laser duration quirks at minimum)
> 8xE (with laser range quirks at minimum)
> 2xE + Jump Jets (with hefty PPC quirks)

Ballistics are a total non-starter. The only one that almost doesn't suck up too much tonnage for its damage rating is the LB-10X, and we are all familiar with its deficiencies. If all of the lasers are in the torso and at most one arm, we might be able to squeeze a Gauss and five Mediums in with 25 shots, but we need medium laser range and ballistic cool-down to make that tenable. And I don't mean 10%, we need 20% at least.


This could be possible for an IS mech if they put in the Grand Dragon Variants and give the Dragon design as a whole an overhaul.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Dragon

5K comes with ERPPC stock as it's "gun arm" (which means probably PPC quirk) and then 3 other energy hardpoints and one missile. If we expanded on that and give it two more energy and one missile it fulfills one of your aspects.

1G comes with a normal PPC "gun arm" but is pretty much a normal Dragon otherwise.

Dragons are one of the older Heavy designs. Catapult got a major scale down, but the Dragon needs a complete redo IMO and it would be a great time to add the Grand Dragons to the Dragon Variant list.

#12 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 11:28 AM

The missiles can't be in the CT, is also worth pointing out. I have to be able to bring two six-racks, which I can't do if they are CT-mounted. The PPCs also aren't really useful without the jets. I mean, I already run a pair of ER PPC on a DRG-1C, and as a poke 'Mech (XL 335 + 2x ERPPC + 2xML + 20xDHS) it's not horrible, but it's not great, either. It runs pretty icy, but those side torsos are just so huge and having to stay on the ground limits what it can do with those two ER PPCs versus something like a Summoner or even a TDR-9SE.

#13 Barantor

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 11:32 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 20 November 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

The missiles can't be in the CT, is also worth pointing out. I have to be able to bring two six-racks, which I can't do if they are CT-mounted. The PPCs also aren't really useful without the jets. I mean, I already run a pair of ER PPC on a DRG-1C, and as a poke 'Mech (XL 335 + 2x ERPPC + 2xML + 20xDHS) it's not horrible, but it's not great, either. It runs pretty icy, but those side torsos are just so huge and having to stay on the ground limits what it can do with those two ER PPCs versus something like a Summoner or even a TDR-9SE.


Yeah the whole deal to be even partially viable would require some work on the Dragon model itself. (Cadillac hood nose would have to be shortened and the shoulders either bulked out or the whole mech made taller.)

The plus side is that it could have one side torso mount in each shoulder up high to mount ERPPCs in.

Edited by Barantor, 20 November 2016 - 11:34 AM.


#14 TheArisen

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 12:10 PM

As others have said you'll be hard pressed to find a mech that can match the Linebacker for speed and have a decent amount of firepower. Clan xl & clan endo/FF make it a losing battle.

I'd choose the Lancelot but I'd probably not go higher than a xl375 due to the diminishing returns. Maybe for a Mlas boat but that's it. The Lancelot would be an upgraded Rifleman, aside from quirks it'd obsolete it.

Tbh I think the Linebacker would be a somewhat better mech if it used a 375 instead of a 390.

#15 Dee Eight

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 12:24 PM

You can effectively build the grand dragon using the dragon anyway. They have a 360 engine cap and that's what you need to equal the speed of a linebacker. You'll have 22.5 tons of weapons, ammo and heatsinks left and about 14-15 crit spaces free to use those tons, on a dragon with endo, FF, a 360XL and nearly max armor. Now if you run the same 4 DHS in the engine as the Linebacker, you end up with 18.5 tons of weapons still.

#16 Barantor

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 01:23 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 20 November 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

You can effectively build the grand dragon using the dragon anyway. They have a 360 engine cap and that's what you need to equal the speed of a linebacker. You'll have 22.5 tons of weapons, ammo and heatsinks left and about 14-15 crit spaces free to use those tons, on a dragon with endo, FF, a 360XL and nearly max armor. Now if you run the same 4 DHS in the engine as the Linebacker, you end up with 18.5 tons of weapons still.


Almost, but the hardpoints are in the wrong spots since the Grand dragon 5K has one energy point in each arm, each torso. The 1C has 4 energy points, but it is two in the left arm and two in the left torso.

Dragon needs a redesign anyway.

#17 FLG 01

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 03:18 PM

Cavalry Mechs are best done with ClanTech due to C-XL.

However, I am a fan of IS cavalry Mechs nonetheless. The Lancelot would be nice, especially the one variant with JJ. Its big brother, the Dragoon, also comes with a variant having a high engine cap and a boatload of energy hardpoints, plus the ability to mount an AC/20 in the arm. (And it is a very good Mech overall, but it is extinct and PGI never did a fully extinct chassis before).

My personal favourite is the Excalibur. It would depend on good quirks though and its variants are quite boring.

#18 Mole

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 05:44 PM

View PostFLG 01, on 20 November 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

Cavalry Mechs are best done with ClanTech due to C-XL.

However, I am a fan of IS cavalry Mechs nonetheless. The Lancelot would be nice, especially the one variant with JJ. Its big brother, the Dragoon, also comes with a variant having a high engine cap and a boatload of energy hardpoints, plus the ability to mount an AC/20 in the arm. (And it is a very good Mech overall, but it is extinct and PGI never did a fully extinct chassis before).

I actually like the look of that Dragoon... high mounted energy arms like the rifleman or jagermech, and even the stock loadout looks pretty viable. I mean just switch the two LB-10-X cannons out for two regular AC/10s, keep the ERPPC, and upgrade to double heat sinks and you've got yourself a 'mech that sounds like I could do well in. I kinda want that 'mech now.

#19 Dee Eight

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 05:46 PM

Well its not like the linebacker is swimming in ideal hardpoint placements either. At best you can have ONE high energy hardpoint in the RT and LT, or ONE high ballistic hardpoint in the RT. This puts them really no worse than the dragons. Most of the extra energy hardpoints on linebackers are below the cockpit level.

#20 Deathlike

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 06:31 PM

There really is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to engine size on certain mechs.

It actually gets worse because you'll end up needing to quirk many of the IS chassis to even properly make the most of the IS XL engine.

Most of the usable IS mechs that use large IS XL engines are of the laservomit/energy variety.. and that's usually limited and problematic on many levels.


There's not really a need to compete with the Linebacker... because there are literally better options (for Clan mechs) available.





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