37 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Machine guns basically just suck. You can get kills with them against people not paying attention, but that can be said about anyone and MGs are some of the worst weapons for killing someone who isn't paying attention.

They have bad range, they have a cone of fire spread, they require constant face time, they require ammo, they deal pitiful damage, they have a high crit modifier but are bad at crits compared to guns that deal 10 or more damage per shot.

Basically with a Mauler, machine guns would be your worst choice of weapon. The Mauler is slow and a large target, it will be hard to get in range and once you do you don't have much damage up close and you'll have to stare down your enemy, which means they can easily target your components and blow them off without worry because your DPS is so low.

Best build for an MX90 would be 5 AC5s which will give you great range and a hard hitting and rapid fire attack that you can still spread damage between. You could also go with 4 UAC5s if you wanted more rapid fire, if you double tap with them all the time you'll put out quite a bit of DPS and put out 20 damage each tap. Some players will just try to duck for cover under that sort of firepower.

[IraqiWalker]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 November 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

I should ask if I'm right in that MG ammo does not explode.

MG ammo explodes, and with enough of it in there can rupture your mech in half. Just like any other ammo type.

Only ammo that does not explode is Gauss Ammo. Since it's literally just some steel rods. Instead, the Gauss Rifle itself can explode

[Navy Sixes]

Rogue Jedi, on 27 November 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

they are most certainly not junk

I'm going to eat a little crow here and concede to you that the MG is not total junk. I saw this...

TheLuc, on 27 November 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

BlackJack Epikt
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8dcd2baaf3a0fcf

...and remembered that I do, in fact, have an Arrow in my mechbay, gathering dust. I kitted it out with a build similar to The Luc's specs, intending to come back here and tell you that you were wrong. My very first match out of the gate...

Spoiler

...and then...

Spoiler

...the 5-Kill Match that has been eluding me for years!!!

I can't manage these matches and call the MG total junk. But this build is tricky. It's a 45-ton brawler, with all the problems you can imagine coming with that title. You get caught out on the wrong map and it's going to be a long day spectating. Also, the BJ doesn't have any lateral arm movement, and those LPL's are torso-mounted, so it's really hard to put its guns on a close, determined light that knows what it's doing. In addition, a pilot must pick their battles carefully: "R" is essential in finding opponents with exposed internals. Note that in that 5-kill match, I didn't even do 300pts of damage. I got real lucky at the end and charged into the "Domination dish" where all the remaining enemies were already chewed up by my teammates. And to be fair, I could never tell if it was the 6xMG hosedown or the 2xLPL that popped them. Probably a little of column A, a little of column B.

TLDR: Okay, MG's are not total junk on a fast mech that can boat them. If you're running a light or a medium with lots of ballistic slots, there's probably not a lot else you can fill them with, anyway. Dakota1000's spot on, though: on a big mech, there are far better ballistic options.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 29 November 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Jingseng]

MGs in 3+ or else not really worth it. Sure if you've got nothing else you can fit on for the tonnage, it can make a nice back up in an otherwise high heat brawl, but you need at least 3 firing at the same time to be dangerous.. preferably something like 6. Pair that with something that can pinpoint a location (like a gauss) and surprising things happen.

That said, I'm not terribly convinced of their utility on heavy+ (mad 3r, highlander 2c, jm, reflect, etc). I think I came across a mauler 6mg once, and basically it was trading armor for time until the mg became effective. Which really means you can only face up to one opponent, which sort of contradicts the assault armor class

[TooDumbToQuit]

I have a perfect example from last night. I'm running a stock (8/8) KFX-C with an ER PPC , 2 SPL and 2 MGs.

We were at Grim and someone was attacking our base so I ran back to it. I drop down from where I was shooting and made for the base. There was a Hunchback in my way who was fighting a teammate to my right. I saw that the Hunchback was at 73% and my teammate had been shooting his front armor so I ran right at him, popped him with the ER PPC and then just destroyed him with the MGs and SPL. I barely had to stop.

Unless the enemy is already torn up, I do not even use the MGs/SPLs.

[Vlad Striker]

MG destination is to kill components, not to kill mech or to strip armor. Arrow's 6 mg can kill any weapon component in second in case of no armor. So carefully aim on unprotected part of mech with equipment. MG is EXTREMLY effective against disarmored gauss rifles.

Never use MG against CT (exclude CT is red). Work with it on arms and side torsos.

Edited by Vlad Striker, 29 November 2016 - 01:14 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Vlad Striker, on 29 November 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

MG destination is to kill components, not to kill mech or to strip armor. Arrow's 6 mg can kill any weapon component in second in case of no armor. So carefully aim on unprotected part of mech with equipment. MG is EXTREMLY effective against disarmored gauss rifles.

Never use MG against CT (exclude CT is red). Work with it on arms and side torsos.

MG actually is outclassed at component killing by heavier weaponry that deals 10 or more damage per shot. AC10s and PPCs are crit kings. What MGs are good for is destroying enemy structure rather than the components. Crit damage transfers over to internals. MGs have such high crit damage multiplier that they do over 2dps each on average, but this damage is spread out across all the components in a section, you're likely to remove big items such as gauss or ACs, but if its a section filled with heatsinks or half ton ammo boxes then you're more likely to have destroyed the whole side before an item in it goes off.

I'd also advise against what you said about targeting the arms. Unless its clear the enemy has the majority of their weaponry in the arm and its about to fall off, its always better to just destroy the side torso that keeps that arm attached or go straight for the CT. Many IS mechs will be running XLs and many clan mechs will lose quite a bit on side torso loss while many players run their arms entirely empty to save weight. I've survived matches because I've had no arm armor so people went and started targeting my arms expecting it to matter to me only for me to lose it then just kill them with no ill effects.

Besides that, taking out the CT takes out the whole mech, much better than taking out a few weapons in the first place, which is just one of the other reasons crit seeking weapon mentality is flawed.

[Lucius Dominus]

Lots of machine guns are effective if you're a face hugger/brawler once the mech's internals have been opened up. They also generate no heat, so you can fire them while cooling off. They are decent crit seekers against internal structure.

[Vlad Striker]

Quote

AC10s and PPCs are crit kings

Good in theory bad on practice. Just try to kill Catapult arm LRM component on Testing ground.
1. AC10 - 3 shot, arm destroyed. Component not destroyed. Near 7 sec
2. 6mg (Arrow mech) 0.5 sec LRM destroyed, arm 50% health.

Edited by Vlad Striker, 30 November 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Vlad Striker, on 30 November 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Good in theory bad on practice. Just try to kill Catapult arm LRM component on Testing ground.
1. AC10 - 3 shot, arm destroyed. Component not destroyed. Near 7 sec
2. 6mg (Arrow mech) 0.5 sec LRM destroyed, arm 50% health.

As I said, with MGs you're likely to crit out large components rather quickly, especially against a stock build that has absolutely no crit padding. In actual matches people actually try to keep their main weaponry safe from crits by placing heatsinks, lasers, or other equipment with it.

An AC10 has the chance to take out a component in one hit if it rolls a crit, It can take out up to 3 in one hit if it rolls 3 crits. With a dual AC10 build you're rather likely to take out one or more components on each shot in an unarmored section, however you're also very likely to outright destroy that section, destroying all the components inside at once also.

In practice you're also rather likely to be getting shot at, the AC10 allows you to fire and take cover or twist or try to negate enemy damage in some way while the MGs force you to keep your crosshairs on target leaving you open for heavy return fire. Tests on crits are also entirely unreliable without massive amounts of retrials since they are entirely up to a random number generator, so for each shot with the AC10 that didn't destroy a component, there's a shot that destroyed 1 or 2 or even 3.

Either way though, AC10s would be a better choice for OP's Mauler over the MGs since the Mauler doesn't have the luxury of speed to get into MG range nor does it have quirks to help out the MGs.

[Spheroid]

I really don't care about crits. I do know that a maxed out Arrow does 12 DPS against exposed structure for zero heat which can lead to fairly quick death of the target.

That is from the best machine gun platform in the game, most mechs fall far short of that number. I do make an exception on some Clan mechs as their mg are so amazingly light it pays to occasionally equip a few.

[197mmCannon]

just for fun I put 6 machine guns on a direwolf and went into the testing grounds. It melted the test atlas fairly quickly. Keep in my mind that was against a target that was standing still and not fighting back but the MGs do a little bit more than "almost nothing"

As someone else pointed out 6 MGs will have a DPS of 4.8. With one ton of ammo that's 4 tons occupied (less for clan MGs). compare that to equal tonnage of 4 medium lasers of 5.13 DPS that will have to stop firing to cool off and you can see that the MGs will do real damage, even to full armor components. Once the armor is gone then your MG DPS is possibly tripled and could possibly out DPS any other weapon. Obviously there are other factors to consider such as range and face time, but in a pure DPS test, MGs hold their own.

I want to clarify that I am in no way advocating for you to put 6 MGs on a MX90, that is a terrible idea. I do run 2 AC20s and 4MGs on mine though. I'm too obsessed with symmetry to do the 5 AC5 build.

What I am advocating, is that if your building a mech and you end up with a few unused ballistic hardpoints (3 or more) then throw some MGs on. For the slots and tonnage of a couple double heatsinks you could have the difference between winning and losing an intense brawl.

Also, if you have MGs and your in range, then shoot them. This "they don't do any damage to armor" nonsense is just that, nonsense.

Edited by 197mmCannon, 01 December 2016 - 10:12 AM.

[JC Daxion]

even as a big lover of the machine guns, even in this game, Rogue is right.. You need to be in a fastish mech to make um work. Assaults are just to slow for um to really do any good. Even in your face brawlers.

I will say that i have used um in a timber build, mainly for fun, or i stick a pair of flamers, but it seams like most matches the Extra heat sink would of helped more.. that said, a single double heat sink is practically un-noticeable because of how tiny the difference is.


IS side, they are a bit heavier, so that means even in a pair you need at least a ton, 3-4 means 3-4 tons.. just to much weight on a slower mech that would need that used for a bigger engine to make um worth it..


i only have a handful of mechs i use um on, huggin, spider, cicada, arrow, Jager along with a few clan mechs.. Honestly they can be effective, and can really rattle a pilot late game. Nothing worse than being in an assault and all of a sudden some fast mech comes pounding you with um from the rear, as you are fighting someone else.. the psychological factor is bigger, even if getting hit with 6-8 SPL's would do more damage..

[Elessar]

One of my builds has LRM and, as a last resort if my LRM ammo runs out, a single MG (would have preferred a laser, but the Mech has no Energy Hardpoints).
As a last resort weapon IMHO it is better thasn nothing ... and I even managed to kill a Mech with it once (he had his Torso open and my shots detonated his ammo or soemthing like that) ... and I also managed to damage other Mechs with the MG

[jss78]

No real analysis to contribute, but I'll just observe that in MWO World Championships finals yesterday, you could see Quad-MG (and I think 1 ERLL) Spiders quite a lot.

I believe they had to choose 2 lights for each match, and this is what they chose. They used the MG's a LOT too, double teaming on hurting 'mechs.

Also MG damage buff and spread reduction is announced for December patch. I believe it's time to bring my Arrow out of retirement...

When possible, I really like to throw in one SPL in the same fire group with the MG's. It has the exact same range profile, so I simply fire it with the MG's. Helps punch throw any remaining armour and get to the grinding-through-internals stage. For example in my Arrow I have a spare E hardpoint after putting in my 2xLL and the 6xMG.

[Brizna]

I think they were using LPLs + MGs. And I also bet that if instead of 4 MGS they could have used 4 SPLs they would have done so. SDR-5V doesn't go into the match because of MGs, but because of the LPL, its quirks and its mobility.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant 5K

Edited by Brizna, 04 December 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

jss78, on 04 December 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

No real analysis to contribute, but I'll just observe that in MWO World Championships finals yesterday, you could see Quad-MG (and I think 1 ERLL) Spiders quite a lot.

I believe they had to choose 2 lights for each match, and this is what they chose. They used the MG's a LOT too, double teaming on hurting 'mechs.

Also MG damage buff and spread reduction is announced for December patch. I believe it's time to bring my Arrow out of retirement...

When possible, I really like to throw in one SPL in the same fire group with the MG's. It has the exact same range profile, so I simply fire it with the MG's. Helps punch throw any remaining armour and get to the grinding-through-internals stage. For example in my Arrow I have a spare E hardpoint after putting in my 2xLL and the 6xMG.

The spider gets some gnarly quirks on its LPL giving it the firepower of 2 with half the duration. It also has some of the best hitboxes of the light chassis and great speed and jumping ability. The MGs are there mostly for backup since that mech can't hold anything else and it doesn't require many heatsinks for its single laser. If you have them you might as well use them, especially with how great spiders are at harassing people. You can't just let a light mech start ripping out your rear armor without doing anything, and if you do anything then you are unable to deal with the people infront of you firing. Its a rock and hard place situation.

[Void Angel]

Machine guns are not totally useless, but they're down there with flamers and small lasers as second-rate weapons overall. Still, they can make excellent support weapons for small 'mechs which cannot support larger ballistics and are able to support a playing style which makes good use of the MG.

A word on critical damage transferring to structure: there are limitations to this damage - and a lot of confusion as to how it works. This is because of some confusion in terms, and loose readings of the patch notes from the implementation of the system. Basically, in order to inflict extra structure damage from criticals, there has to be equipment inside the targeted location.

The reason has to do with how critical hits work. Whenever you deal structure damage with a weapon, there is a chance to get a critical hit. A critical hit (which can have up to a x3 multiplier) will deal "critical damage" to a randomly selected piece of equipment in the component (e.g. a heat sink.) This "crit damage" applies only to the hit points of the item it hits, and 15% of the damage actually done is transferred to structure. Every destructible piece of equipment on your 'mech has its own hit poins; typically 10, though exceptions exist - Gauss Rifles have only 5, while AC/20s have 18. "Dealing damage" in this instance is every tick of machine gun damage or laser fire, or of course any single shot weapon. Some weapons, like the AC/2 and Machine Gun, have multipliers to critical damage as well. Every crit is randomly assigned, and of course, damage to any item is cumulative.

This leads to several examples and points of interest:

• Only the damage actually done to a piece of gear is transferred: if I hit an AC/20 with three AC/5 crits, then finish off the last 3 item hp with a PPC, only 3 of the ten crit damage done will be transferred (at the 15% rate.)
  
• Similarly an empty component (this is the arm, torso, etc) cannot receive the additional 15% damage, because 15% of zero is still zero. I'm reliably advised that this was confirmed in testing.
  
• In a poking war, 10-damage, front-loaded pinpoint weapons like the AC/10 will destroy enemy equipment much more efficiently than hitscan and scatter weapons like SRMs, lasers, and LB-X autocannons; however, in sustained combat the crit-enhanced weapons will be much more effective - nothing destroys internal equipment faster than massed machine guns if the attacker has leisure to stare at you.

PS: The game rolls criticals for structure damage; results can be no crit, or a 1X, 2X, or 3X crit - it is unclear whether this means that the crit damage for a 2-3X crit is multiplied and applied once, or not multiplied and applied 2 or 3 times, respectively.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 December 2016 - 09:35 PM.