58 replies to this topic

[QuantumButler]

TBH if their goal is just to have UACs generally be 20% more DPS than normal ACs I'd much rather have them remove the double tap fully and just increase their rate of fire across the board by 20%, much less irritating than the current style.

[LordNothing]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 02:12 AM, said:

TBH if their goal is just to have UACs generally be 20% more DPS than normal ACs I'd much rather have them remove the double tap fully and just increase their rate of fire across the board by 20%, much less irritating than the current style.

i dont see why we need a safe mode, if you want to play it safe grab an ac instead.

[Pjwned]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Why not give them a bar like the flamer and they jam if you max it out, like how RACs work in MW4?

That way the player has total control over jamming and no more RNG BS.

Because that would make it way too good, as has been said dozens of times.

That's not a new idea and it's still a bad idea.

[El Bandito]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 02:12 AM, said:

TBH if their goal is just to have UACs generally be 20% more DPS than normal ACs I'd much rather have them remove the double tap fully and just increase their rate of fire across the board by 20%, much less irritating than the current style.

Their goal is to let UACs have proportionately bigger DPS than that of regular ACs, compared to tonnage/slot costs, at the risk of potentially crippling jams. And they did.

Just ask yourself: Do I feel lucky?

If yes, use UACs. If no, use regular ACs.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 November 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[LordNothing]

Pjwned, on 27 November 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

Because that would make it way too good, as has been said dozens of times. That's not a new idea and it's still a bad idea.

not as bad an idea as doubletap was. you could get the same effect in quake with 2 lines of quake c. its just cheap.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Giving AC's additional heat.

Would introduce the same main drawback energy weapons have.

You'd essentially be turning ballistic AC's into energy weapons and eliminating their unique qualities.

[Zergling]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Why not give them a bar like the flamer and they jam if you max it out, like how RACs work in MW4?

That way the player has total control over jamming and no more RNG BS.

That makes entirely too much sense for PGI to ever implement.

[FupDup]

Pjwned, on 27 November 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

Because that would make it way too good, as has been said dozens of times.

What makes you so sure of that?

With a "jam bar" type of system, PGI would have the ability to set a hard maximum limit on the DPS that Ultras can push out.

Right now the max limit is inconsistent based on how lucky you are. This could mean jamming on the first double tap, or being allowed to fire twenty double taps back-to-back without any consequence. The latter of those sounds "way too good," doesn't it? That's what RNG enables to happen.

We could hypothetically set the jam bar so that the player could fire, say, 3 double taps (back-to-back) before they jam it up. Two dub taps is definitely too low and going higher than that might be iffy for most of them (UAC/2 max limit could safely be higher though).

Does that sound so OP? If anything, that arbitrary example number (3 dub taps) would probably make them weaker than current stats.

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Why not give them a bar like the flamer and they jam if you max it out, like how RACs work in MW4?

That way the player has total control over jamming and no more RNG BS.

This is the proper solution.

Will never happen. PGI loves RNG.

[Gamuray]

An Innocent Urbie, on 27 November 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

I think it would be better to have more heat than jamming it. people will have more control than weapon jamming RNG.

How about this:

Single tap produces identical to regular ac, double tap results in double reload time. So you pay 1 ton and slot for extra functionality.

[Deathlike]

Tristan Winter, on 27 November 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

This is the proper solution.

Will never happen. PGI loves MM RNG.

All we need now is to rig it so that EmP faces our balance overlord....

[Rift Hawk]

An Innocent Urbie, on 27 November 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

I think it would be better to have more heat than jamming it. people will have more control than weapon jamming RNG.

Horrible idea. To make it worth it the heat multiplier would have to be so high that the weapon would be rendered almost useless. The point is to balance the weapon with other ACs not nerf it so badly its not even an option anymore.

[Deathlike]

If you want to really affect UACs... you need to be strongly looking at controlling rate of fire as that's the ultimate way of doing it. How you go about it is another matter, but making it purely RNG-driven is bad as people need some level of control as well (basically, you need to be able to fire more than usual, but up to an acceptable level - hence the suggestions along the line of Rotary ACs in MW4).

Edited by Deathlike, 27 November 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[Rift Hawk]

Deathlike, on 27 November 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

If you want to really affect UACs... you need to be strongly looking at controlling rate of fire as that's the ultimate way of doing it. How you go about it is another matter, but making it purely RNG-driven is bad.

Keep everything the same but make it more of a risk vs reward weapon. Normal fire operates as is (basically as normal AC) but the double click applies a substantial cooldown over the norm. maybe 3-4x. It effectively gives you full use of the weapon that can used for extra burst dps when needed without the ability to spam it into oblivion. Then jam mechanics could be removed completely. That is really the only way I could see it being removed at all.

[s0da72]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Why not give them a bar like the flamer and they jam if you max it out, like how RACs work in MW4?

That way the player has total control over jamming and no more RNG BS.

That would improve players gaming experience and that is not allowed..

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 27 November 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

What makes you so sure of that?

With a "jam bar" type of system, PGI would have the ability to set a hard maximum limit on the DPS that Ultras can push out.

Right now the max limit is inconsistent based on how lucky you are. This could mean jamming on the first double tap, or being allowed to fire twenty double taps back-to-back without any consequence. The latter of those sounds "way too good," doesn't it? That's what RNG enables to happen.

We could hypothetically set the jam bar so that the player could fire, say, 3 double taps (back-to-back) before they jam it up. Two dub taps is definitely too low and going higher than that might be iffy for most of them (UAC/2 max limit could safely be higher though).

Does that sound so OP? If anything, that arbitrary example number (3 dub taps) would probably make them weaker than current stats.

Being inconsistent is what makes them balanced. You don't know when it's going to jam up if you continuously double tap it, so ostensibly you need to actually think about when you double tap because the question of "is it worth it to double tap if my UAC jams" is always looming, especially now that higher caliber UACs jam up for longer.

The exception is people who double tap all the time in any situation no matter what and then cry & moan that the weapon needs to be changed to fit their brainless mashing playstyle--it doesn't by the way--because GOD FORBID the weapon actually jam up on them ever when it was a bad idea to double tap!

[xengk]

QuantumButler, on 27 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Why not give them a bar like the flamer and they jam if you max it out, like how RACs work in MW4?

That way the player has total control over jamming and no more RNG BS.

Do you want UAC nojam Macro?
That is how you get UAC nojam Macro.

LordNothing, on 27 November 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

half this player base is in their 30s or 40s, arthritis is a thing.

That sound vaguely similar to "jump jet shake cause motion sickness" reasoning.

[lazytopaz]

IMHO basic premise of recent UAC nerf was to adress heavy boaters like DWF, KDK3 (oh look clan nerf again )....
Which failed miserably, and just nerfed single dakka weapon users like SCR's with UAC10/20 and such.
Basically any mech that you usually used with only one maybe two of the weapon type are useless builds from this day on.
Boaters - mechs that can use 3 or more UAC's were not affected by it. If one of their weapon jams they still have at least two more to shoot with.
So NO this nerf was not necessary because it didnt fix/adress the issues that spawned this nerf. Actually the thing that OP mentioned - increased Heat on a "jam" would've hit loads more heavy boaters more than it would single (or 2) uac users.
But yeah dart board balancing and out of the woodwork ideas that include blanket nerfs (which are never a good thing, just a sign of clueless approach that is entirely disconnected from the game) are still happening and we still cannot communicate the feedback where it shouldve been noticed and replied to.

[Karl Streiger]

Pjwned, on 28 November 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Being inconsistent is what makes them balanced. You don't know when it's going to jam up if you continuously double tap it, so ostensibly you need to actually think about when you double tap because the question of "is it worth it to double tap if my UAC jams" is always looming, especially now that higher caliber UACs jam up for longer.

The exception is people who double tap all the time in any situation no matter what and then cry & moan that the weapon needs to be changed to fit their brainless mashing playstyle--it doesn't by the way--because GOD FORBID the weapon actually jam up on them ever when it was a bad idea to double tap!

No not really, not to mention that those darn guns tend to jam when you fire even a single shot.
The issue is mainly the UAC20... when you go in you need that damage and you need it fast - maybe you think that the risk of jamming is worth when your corosshair is over the back of that oblivious Warhawk spamming LRMs.
What you don't need is a gun that jams with the first volley.

Funny thing is when the UAC doesn't jam with the second volley - its complete OP. For the giving weight and crits double damage in the same time frame is maybe ok for CBT but it is total bad for a FPS game.

Take for example the IS UAC5 you spend one ton and one crit and should get a weapon that creates slightly better DPS (that might increase the HPS and decrease the timer per ton of ammunition.

I think as so much other things in mwo - the first implementation was ok, but every improvement afterwards made it worse.
(Speaking of the UAC5 without double tap 1.1 instead of 1.5sec cooldown and 25 instead of 30shots per ton) - this is the way to go.
For Clan UAC you make it with the shot count because weight is the same (so the UAC5 fires 3 rather than 2 bullets and the shots/ton is nerfed slightly.
You don't need the jam mechanic, that is already a bad mechanic in CBT.

[FupDup]

Pjwned, on 28 November 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Being inconsistent is what makes them balanced. You don't know when it's going to jam up if you continuously double tap it, so ostensibly you need to actually think about when you double tap because the question of "is it worth it to double tap if my UAC jams" is always looming, especially now that higher caliber UACs jam up for longer.

The exception is people who double tap all the time in any situation no matter what and then cry & moan that the weapon needs to be changed to fit their brainless mashing playstyle--it doesn't by the way--because GOD FORBID the weapon actually jam up on them ever when it was a bad idea to double tap!

Saying "I think jamming should be bad, because it should be" doesn't explain anything about the bar-mechanic being "too powerful." Whether something is too powerful or not is based on an analysis of opportunity costs (e.g. tonnage, heat, etc.) versus the rewards you get for paying those costs (e.g. range, DPS, frontloadedness, etc.). OP-ness is not based on opinions of what we think a mechanic "should" be like.

You are aware that "brainless button mashing" would still jam the bar-based Ultras up, right? People would have to have firing discipline to keep their guns shooting forever, which means their burst DPS will go down. The heat bar works the same way, but I still see a lot of people overheating. If people don't manage their heat, they certainly ain't gonna manage their "jam bar" much better.

I'm also going to have to point out that inconsistent weapon performance is a really garbage balancing philosophy, which is most egregiously displayed by MWO's implementation of both LRMs and SSRMs (in some situations they work okay and in some situations they are 100% useless). Or just critical hits and "crit seeking" weapons in general, really.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2016 - 04:30 AM.