83 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

cazidin, on 28 November 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

What did Niko Snow do?

What story would you like? The long or short one?

Long story: The guy was a terrible person.
Short story: **** Niko

Done.

[BearFlag]

PGI does not need a "PR" guy at this interface. To bridge the gap, they need something more like a Customer Advocate. This would be someone to distill and pass up concerns, good questions, promising ideas. This person would try to complete the comm loop and return with clarification, answers and response to ideas by directing the idea/concern to the person or department that can answer. To this end, he/she would have access (within reason) to all team members including the CEO.

Now, the company would also know that this person will not always toe the line in advocating. Given that PGI prefers a low level of day-to-day engagement, they should be eager to have filtered engagement. But to have that, they'd need someone who is in the trenches but also not a compliant yesman. To prevent Fortress PGI from simply pulling back their defenses, a compulsory protocol would accompany the position's creation. The Customer Advocate may request (require) once per week that any team member drop into the forums to address whatever. It may be more often if the PGI member is willing. It may be less often if the team mate is not called upon.

The candidate...

Plays the game.
Likes the game.
But often agrees with player concerns.
Has a presence on the forums.
Has a thick skin.
Is fair-minded (can separate his/her opinion from possible missed quorum, or from community sentiment)
Has a technical background (to judge resource/time vs. ideas).
Can engage the community in brainstorming.
Is financially independent (not afraid to be fired, not a yesman)
Will defend the company and its personnel when appropriate
Will NOT defend the company when appropriate.
Will defend the community "on the inside."
Will advocate for transparency when the company is aiming for surprise.
Will advocate for long term goals in rough accord with player wishes.

[Appogee]

BearFlag, on 28 November 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

PGI does not need a "PR" guy at this interface. To bridge the gap, they need something more like a Customer Advocate. This would be someone to distill and pass up concerns, good questions, promising ideas. This person would try to complete the comm loop and return with clarification, answers and response to ideas by directing the idea/concern to the person or department that can answer. To this end, he/she would have access (within reason) to all team members including the CEO.

Now, the company would also know that this person will not always toe the line in advocating. Given that PGI prefers a low level of day-to-day engagement, they should be eager to have filtered engagement. But to have that, they'd need someone who is in the trenches but also not a compliant yesman. To prevent Fortress PGI from simply pulling back their defenses, a compulsory protocol would accompany the position's creation. The Customer Advocate may request (require) once per week that any team member drop into the forums to address whatever. It may be more often if the PGI member is willing. It may be less often if the team mate is not called upon.

The candidate...

Plays the game.
Likes the game.
But often agrees with player concerns.
Has a presence on the forums.
Has a thick skin.
Is fair-minded (can separate his/her opinion from possible missed quorum, or from community sentiment)
Has a technical background (to judge resource/time vs. ideas).
Can engage the community in brainstorming.
Is financially independent (not afraid to be fired, not a yesman)
Will defend the company and its personnel when appropriate
Will NOT defend the company when appropriate.
Will defend the community "on the inside."
Will advocate for transparency when the company is aiming for surprise.
Will advocate for long term goals in rough accord with player wishes.

A good list. But such a person still wouldn't succeed within PGI, because PGI management wouldn't be receptive to alternative views and directions that would be advocated by the outsider.

We've seen this attitude from them throughout development. They believe they know best. All evidence to the contrary is dismissed as being their publishers'/customers' fault. Further, they've surrounded themselves with an echo chamber and isolated themselves from anything that could challenge their preset thinking.

This is what has prevented me from offering to do pro bono marketing and communication consulting for them, even though Mechwarrior is my passion and I want the BattleTech IP to prosper. You just can't help companies whose leadership won't accept that they need help.

I predict MWO will flounder in the year ahead. And when it does, PGI's leadership still won't realise what a golden opportunity they squandered. Instead of setting out to make something great and enduring, they followed their deeply-held inner conviction that MWO "couldn't be any better than it was".

They won't realise their limited success was a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Edited by Appogee, 28 November 2016 - 11:20 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

The teacher in me has forced me to point out that technically "Public Relations IS hard" is likely the correct English. Public Relations refers to a single role or department in this case, and is not a plural requiring "are".

Oh, hey...what was the point of post this again?

[Jingseng]

This game would instantly tank. See: hellgate London original beta release.

A good pr person does not do that; that would be just some sort of unthinking robot overlord.

The result would be an endless hodgepodge of terrible ideas that cater to specific individuals, an utter lack of content due to the base game mechanics changing damn near daily, and nothing at all resembling fun.

It's easy to design a car by yourself. Try doing it with 500 people whose opinions must be given equal weight and implemented.

[627]

Juat a little story from the past. We once had a CM named Garth. Garth was more or less accepted by the community. He was active in the forums, too. He wasn't that deep into the game and its mechanics but at least he tried.
And he had some weird fetish for Cicadas which was obviously his try to get into the community as a player so we can accept him.

And he listened. And I can't count how often he "passed" good ideas to the devs, at least how often he wrote that. He really tried.
But in the end, it became clear that either he didn't pass that input from the community or it was just ignored. And after some weeks on vacation he was fired because it didn't make a difference if he's there or not, from PGI's view.

Have to say, back in the day, we didn't only had Garth here, Paul and to an extend Brian was active here, too. And while Paul was and is always a bit special when it comes to community interaction we at least could get some info and backgrounds how things develop. So maybe Garth or a CM was indeed not needed.

And for sure I will mention the great Karl Berg who could go into a technical detail that only 10 people here could follow him. And that awesome guy always listened when it came to issues with the game.


But then, everything changed. Paul obviously had enough from people trolling him and that guy we don't talk about became CM. Russ got a new phone with the twitter app and everything went downhill.

Edited by 627, 29 November 2016 - 12:05 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

B-But... if PGI actually took our feedback, how are we supposed to get more Mechpacks if they start working on other things?

[martian]

BearFlag, on 28 November 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

PGI does not need a "PR" guy at this interface. To bridge the gap, they need something more like a Customer Advocate. This would be someone to distill and pass up concerns, good questions, promising ideas. This person would try to complete the comm loop and return with clarification, answers and response to ideas by directing the idea/concern to the person or department that can answer. To this end, he/she would have access (within reason) to all team members including the CEO.

Now, the company would also know that this person will not always toe the line in advocating. Given that PGI prefers a low level of day-to-day engagement, they should be eager to have filtered engagement. But to have that, they'd need someone who is in the trenches but also not a compliant yesman. To prevent Fortress PGI from simply pulling back their defenses, a compulsory protocol would accompany the position's creation. The Customer Advocate may request (require) once per week that any team member drop into the forums to address whatever. It may be more often if the PGI member is willing. It may be less often if the team mate is not called upon.

The candidate...

Plays the game.
Likes the game.
But often agrees with player concerns.
Has a presence on the forums.
Has a thick skin.
Is fair-minded (can separate his/her opinion from possible missed quorum, or from community sentiment)
Has a technical background (to judge resource/time vs. ideas).
Can engage the community in brainstorming.
Is financially independent (not afraid to be fired, not a yesman)
Will defend the company and its personnel when appropriate
Will NOT defend the company when appropriate.
Will defend the community "on the inside."
Will advocate for transparency when the company is aiming for surprise.
Will advocate for long term goals in rough accord with player wishes.

It's more probable that you find a diamond in your coal scuttle than that you will find such person, as you described, willing to work for PGI.

[Vellron2005]

cazidin, on 28 November 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple question. If PGI had a good PR guy, somebody to talk to who would make certain that your constructive feedback was passed on and actually listened to, and who also explained why PGI did X or Y in a better way than "Oh, we knew about it. Sorry to subject you to our mistake for a week." would this game be better overall and would these forums look generally happier with the game?

This question was raised in another thread of mine, but I decided that it deserves its own. I received a few likes for this but I want a more serious and in-depth conversation about this.

Well it would be a step in the right direction, to say the least..

Sometimes it's nice to be heard, and hear their side of the story..

I just hope that, if ever such a person arises, they have nerves of steel, cose' this is one toxic, salty community..

[cazidin]

BearFlag, on 28 November 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

PGI does not need a "PR" guy at this interface. To bridge the gap, they need something more like a Customer Advocate. This would be someone to distill and pass up concerns, good questions, promising ideas. This person would try to complete the comm loop and return with clarification, answers and response to ideas by directing the idea/concern to the person or department that can answer. To this end, he/she would have access (within reason) to all team members including the CEO.

Now, the company would also know that this person will not always toe the line in advocating. Given that PGI prefers a low level of day-to-day engagement, they should be eager to have filtered engagement. But to have that, they'd need someone who is in the trenches but also not a compliant yesman. To prevent Fortress PGI from simply pulling back their defenses, a compulsory protocol would accompany the position's creation. The Customer Advocate may request (require) once per week that any team member drop into the forums to address whatever. It may be more often if the PGI member is willing. It may be less often if the team mate is not called upon.

The candidate...

Plays the game.
Likes the game.
But often agrees with player concerns.
Has a presence on the forums.
Has a thick skin.
Is fair-minded (can separate his/her opinion from possible missed quorum, or from community sentiment)
Has a technical background (to judge resource/time vs. ideas).
Can engage the community in brainstorming.
Is financially independent (not afraid to be fired, not a yesman)
Will defend the company and its personnel when appropriate
Will NOT defend the company when appropriate.
Will defend the community "on the inside."
Will advocate for transparency when the company is aiming for surprise.
Will advocate for long term goals in rough accord with player wishes.

So far, it sounds like I meet the criteria. Where do I sign up?

[Maker L106]

Vellron, I obviously haven't been around as much as you but from what I've seen of the community the MWO crews got it better than a lot of the bigger named PC titles out there. Yeah there are some people who just troll / cause trouble but compared to the likes of LoL, DOTA or even the well to do circle jerk which is the Souls community etc: yeah... I'd take this community over that **** any day.

[Appogee]

Vellron2005, on 29 November 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

I just hope that, if ever such a person arises, they have nerves of steel, cose' this is one toxic, salty community..

Toxic salty communities arise when developers show continuing disdain for their customers.

[dervishx5]

cazidin, on 28 November 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

What did Niko Snow do?

http://www.tiki-toki...ng-Expectations

Have fun.

[martian]

cazidin, on 29 November 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

So far, it sounds like I meet the criteria. Where do I sign up?

Here:

Christophe Pauwels

PIRANHA GAMES

2065 - 88 W. Pender Street,
Vancouver, BC V6B 6N9
Canada

[Jun Watarase]

PurplePuke, on 28 November 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Nobody from PGI is ever going to poke their head up in these forums.

The childish disrespect and abuse they would be subjected to would boggle the mind.

Spoilers : It's part of the job. That's like saying nobody would ever want to be a police officer because not only do they get tons of disrespect, they actually get placed in danger.

There was a time when the majority of feedback was actually constructive and positive, but it quickly became clear that it was pointless because patch after patch would come out and issues reported would remain unaddressed. This was especailly clear when the clans were on the play testing server and everyone pointed out the problems with them, but they went live anyway. I'm not even sure if a single change was made before they went live after being revealed on the PTS.

It's gotten so ridiculous that most of the staunchest white knights have moved on to other games because after years of stalling, it becomes pretty hard to just keep repeating the same old lines about how PGI will deliver amazing results soon or that it was someone else's fault that mech packs were being prioritized over actual work.

When you look at what PGI spent 2016 doing, it's obvious that they know they don't actually have to put in much effort into the game at this point, because they can do nothing and just sell mech packs to make money. And people will continue to give them money for mechpacks.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 29 November 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Tordin]

Appogee, on 29 November 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Toxic salty communities arise when developers show continuing disdain for their customers.

Very true, but also the other way around in some cases, of all things

"Toxic salty developers arise when customers show continuing disdain for their developers."

An example are diehard, ultra purist players that object every kind of change even if its for the better, in fear of that their game(s) will be casualised, "dumbed-down". So they hold their developers hostage in a way, developers stagnate their work and only keep the mentality "if its not broken, dont fix/ improve it". Then the game dies out due to lack of new ideas and new players, turning into an echo...

[Jun Watarase]

Appogee, on 28 November 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

A good list. But such a person still wouldn't succeed within PGI, because PGI management wouldn't be receptive to alternative views and directions that would be advocated by the outsider.

We've seen this attitude from them throughout development. They believe they know best. All evidence to the contrary is dismissed as being their publishers'/customers' fault. Further, they've surrounded themselves with an echo chamber and isolated themselves from anything that could challenge their preset thinking.

This is what has prevented me from offering to do pro bono marketing and communication consulting for them, even though Mechwarrior is my passion and I want the BattleTech IP to prosper. You just can't help companies whose leadership won't accept that they need help.

I predict MWO will flounder in the year ahead. And when it does, PGI's leadership still won't realise what a golden opportunity they squandered. Instead of setting out to make something great and enduring, they followed their deeply-held inner conviction that MWO "couldn't be any better than it was".

They won't realise their limited success was a self-fulfilling prophesy.

But they never wanted to put in the hard work to make MWO become a big hit. They just needed enough profit to pay for their expensive office building and salaries. It's like politicians who are only in it for a single term...if the govenrment is a total mess afterwards, well, it's not their problem by that point.

There are some people who put in the work to make something excel, and aren't sastified with half measures. Of course business realities take priority, but when you are reading a "marketing report" that someone put together, and most of it is pointless buzz words with little facts, you just know that he is aiming for the bare minimum to not get fired. PGI is kind of like that. They are also the like dodgy landlords that will come up with any excuse they can to not fix a water leak because they just want someone desperate enough to pay rent, rather than a well maintained property and a happy tenant.

Anyone who has ever done any kind of software work knows what a well motivated and funded team can do given the span of a year. Yet, look at 2016. Modders working in their spare time have done more work in 3 months than PGI has for 2016. Even famous industry failures like Duke Nukem Forever or the cancellation of the world of darkness MMORPG achieved more work than PGI did in the same time frame.

I remember hearing the friend of a friend brag about her cushy government job (the kind where you prepare some reports or whatever). The way she described it, her job hours were 8-5, but she would only show up at 9 am. Nobody would care, and apparently everyone else came in late as well. She would then spend the next two hours getting coffee, chatting with co-workers, checking her email, and then leave for an early lunch at about 11 with her co-workers. They would then take the chance to go shopping and come back several hours later well past the official lunch hour. Then she would finally start doing some work.

I'm pretty sure PGI's working hours look similar to that, because it's pretty hard to explain the lack of work being done otherwise. I'm usually all in favor of indie developers, but PGI is one of those cases where you really need a publisher to force them to meet deadlines. It is just amazing that placeholder systems implemented in beta are still in place today, more than 4 years later...I don't think any other professional online game has managed that feat so far(discounting crappy runescape clones, etc).

Edited by Jun Watarase, 29 November 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[Galenit]

For promotion its too late, you do promotion at and before launch, not years after,
for pr its also too late, they needed it in the moment they did not delivered cw,
community-manager? dont know which community she is managing, for sure not the mwo-community on the mwo-fowum.

But hey, you still buyed and still will buy mechs, you teached them that they dont need to deliver more then mechs, they know they will sell mechs and that you will buy mechs, even if they dont deliver anything they promised or anything they dont promised.

So shut up, stop that moaning and buy a mechpak, thats what you want, thats what you deserve and thats the only thing you will get!

Edited by Galenit, 29 November 2016 - 08:09 AM.

[Tordin]

Never to late to revive an old product!

[cazidin]

martian, on 29 November 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Here:

Christophe Pauwels

PIRANHA GAMES

2065 - 88 W. Pender Street,
Vancouver, BC V6B 6N9
Canada

I'll need a Canadian passport, a fake Moustache and a Fedora.

Thank you.

Tordin, on 29 November 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Never to late to revive an old product!

It's alive! Alive!!!