54 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Star Commander Horse, on 29 November 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

Single HS are great! But you have to have them in your legs and be standing in a pool of water.

In all honesty though if I, Star Commander Horse, was the MWO Master Of Rules, I would also make heat sinks in the legs function like you were standing in water on all snow maps.

The problem is that having 4 leg SHS still doesn't compare against the free 10 SHS that DHS give you in the engine.

[a gaijin]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

The problem is that having 4 leg SHS still doesn't compare against the free 10 SHS that DHS give you in the engine.

Very true. But the 'in the legs in the water/snow' is the best workaround I can come up with for single heat sinks.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

DrxAbstract, on 29 November 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

AS7-RS

What's that you say, XL? I can't hear you over the sound of my speed-wubbing!

Good build.

I tried to get better heat numbers with a boar's head, double sinks & bigger engine cap but could not.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 29 November 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[cazidin]

Really, the best way to make SHS competitive with DHS would be to give them significantly greater capacity, make ALL engine heat sinks effectively double AND keep their dissipation at roughly 0.11 to 0.12. While we're at it, let's give IS Ferro Fibrous some damage reduction? Maybe 10%?

[El Bandito]

I Zeratul I, on 29 November 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

MAKE SINGLE HEAT SINKS GREAT AGAIN

PGI tried that in their Energy Draw PTS. Players, as usual, forced PGI to axe the entire system, including the heat sink rebalancing. At least PGI was smart enough to retain AC5 heat increase and LRM20 buffs, from that.

[cazidin]

El Bandito, on 29 November 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI tried that in their Energy Draw PTS. Players, as usual, forced PGI to axe the entire system, including the heat sink rebalancing. At least PGI was smart enough to retain AC5 heat increase and LRM20 buffs, from that.

Ironically, it wasn't that Energy Draw was an inherently flawed or mediocre™ system but that PGI continued to nerf weapons and complicate Energy Draw to the point that players, predictably, would hate it.

[Pjwned]

El Bandito, on 29 November 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI tried that in their Energy Draw PTS. Players, as usual, forced PGI to axe the entire system, including the heat sink rebalancing. At least PGI was smart enough to retain AC5 heat increase and LRM20 buffs, from that.

They tried and--WOW WHAT A SURPRISE--miserably failed because they made nonsense changes that didn't even help to equalize SHS and DHS anyways.

All they did was change SHS & DHS values willy-nilly and hope they found something passable, instead of doing anything that actually made any sense (like everything else they tested).

cazidin, on 29 November 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Ironically, it wasn't that Energy Draw was an inherently flawed or mediocre™ system but that PGI continued to nerf weapons and complicate Energy Draw to the point that players, predictably, would hate it.

Nah, it was both.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 November 2016 - 06:21 PM.

[SirNotlag]

cazidin, on 29 November 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Really, the best way to make SHS competitive with DHS would be to give them significantly greater capacity, make ALL engine heat sinks effectively double AND keep their dissipation at roughly 0.11 to 0.12. While we're at it, let's give IS Ferro Fibrous some damage reduction? Maybe 10%?

I think FF could use a buff as well but not a free damage reduction even as small as 10% would make me take it over endo on almost all my builds. That increased survivablilty is much more valuable than 2 extra heat sinks.

Personally i think increasing the armour point cap by 14% on the components so you could use the weight saved by FF to be spent to make your mech tougher would be a fair trade off.


My 2 cents on the heat sinks would be to have single have a higher heat cap and double heat sinks dissipate it faster. As i think the Dissipation is more useful but a higher build up is more noob friendly and still useful on certain builds.

Edited by SirNotlag, 29 November 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 29 November 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI tried that in their Energy Draw PTS. Players, as usual, forced PGI to axe the entire system, including the heat sink rebalancing.

PGI didn't try to improve SHS so much as smash down DHS.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

PGI didn't try to improve SHS so much as smash down DHS.

That's still a form of balancing where SHS is more considered than before.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 November 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

I Zeratul I, on 29 November 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

Good build.

I tried to get better heat numbers with a boar's head, double sinks & bigger engine cap but could not.

Boar's Head

It's only a .05 heat/sec difference in dissipation while the Heat Cap difference of 9.72 is mostly negated by the BH's extra -5% Energy Heat Reduction. The BH's larger engine with a 5.2 KPH advantage and better mobility quirks make it the better choice for being a dodgy bastid, but the RS's -10% Duration and Cooldown both give it overall greater damage output potential. Pretty close results either way.

[cazidin]

El Bandito, on 29 November 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

That's still a form of balancing where SHS is more considered than before.

That seems to be how they "balance" equipment and weapons. Nerf whatever is working atm, continue as necessary.

[El Bandito]

cazidin, on 29 November 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

That seems to be how they "balance" equipment and weapons. Nerf whatever is working atm, continue as necessary.

Personally I am fine with toning down over-performers, rather than bringing up everything else to its standards. Which is why I supported Kodiak 3 nerfs, and supported UAC nerfs. And TTBT, having inferior DHS would help tons on increasing TTK, now that UACs are nerfed. I am all about increased TTK, within reasonable metrics, that is.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 29 November 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Personally I am fine with toning down over-performers, rather than bringing up everything else to its standards. Which is why I supported Kodiak 3 nerfs, and supported UAC nerfs. And TTBT, having inferior DHS would help tons on increasing TTK, now that UACs are nerfed. I am all about increased TTK, within reasonable metrics, that is.

DHS aren't over-performers.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

DHS aren't over-performers.

Compared to the alternative? They are.

[Snowbluff]

They were going to be rebalanced with Energy Draw, but people shouted it down so we're in balance limbo and Standard Heat Sinks just suck.

[KoalaBrownie]

Single heat sinks should be completely obsolescent.
But what makes it worse, is that game balance penalizes certain loadouts. I have a mech for example which in Tabletop generates 14 heat with weapons and dissipates 20, and I can get this mech shut down in only a few volleys because it's penalized with a heat speak for simultaneous firing.

However in tabletop, this design should be viable with even Single heat sinks. 4 heat over, 6 with a run, that's the same as the Marauder-3R by comparison which fires 2 PPCs then PPC+AC5 typically. However if you took my same design and used SHS instead of DHS, it would be a completely waste of time.

Point is, if a heat penalty for certain loadouts will heavily impact DHS-bearing mechs than a mech with SHS has no chance.

[Karl Streiger]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

The problem is that having 4 leg SHS still doesn't compare against the free 10 SHS that DHS give you in the engine.

and the simple fix is that all those free engine heatsinks are:[color=inherit]fr[/color]

• SHS only
  
• free
  
  • the CN9-A would have only 8 SHS heatsinks - but not 2tons more available
    
  • the SMN- would have 14 free SHS - and 4 additional tons

[Kmieciu]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

The biggest reason that SHS suck is because DHS get a free 10 tons of heatsinks in the engine.

Therefore the only way to make SHS a viable option is to increase the cooling and capacity of engine SHS to match the DHS.
That would mostly benefit mech that don't use external heatsinks, and those with more tonnage than space.
This will probably never happen because DHS upgrade is a great C-bill sink.

Edited by Kmieciu, 30 November 2016 - 01:35 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Or...

Get rid of the blasted 10 HS requirement (Or just make them 0 tons until you hit 10), remove Engine Heat Sink weight from Engines and make all 10 baseline engine Heat Sinks 2.0--Yay to more viable Lights!