53 replies to this topic

[Sneaky B]

Introduction

Land Air 'Mechs or LAMs are machines intended to fill the gap between the traditional Aerospace Fighters and the landlocked Battlemechs. Aerospace Fighters fill attack, interception and air dominance roles that are staple assets for militaries for the last 700 years. Battlemechs, on the otherhand, dominate the land with superior firepower and agility. To combine both designs represent difficult technical challenges as such, compromises are necessary in order to meet the requirements.

Aerospace Fighters are streamlined in order to produce lift. They employ advanced alloys throughout the airframe that enables it to withstand not only tremendous air resistance and airpressure but also hazards from the vacuum of space. They can sortie and cover vast distances because of their speed. Thanks to these machines, the battlefield became three dimensional. They are, however, not without compromises. Weight needs to be taken into consideration such that they lack thick armors that Battlemechs enjoy.

What Battlemechs lack, on the other hand, make up for munitions and ordnance that no other field asset could offer. Though relatively newer compare to fighters, they brought land warfare to new heights. They could traverse deeper into the battlefield but could not deploy as fast as Fighters.

The potential of LAMs will not necessarily surpass both roles but offer versatility. Objectives and requirements must be realistic enough to ensure the success of the program.

Problems

• Battlemechs are not capable of flight
  
• Weight, Space and Loadout needs to be balanced
  
• Aerospace Fighters are not well armored
  
• Adding moving parts takes up space and Weight
  
• Less fixed parts are less structurally stable in intense flight regimes

Objectives

• LAMs must be able to fly and take off vertically from difficult terrain
  
• LAMs must be able to reach atleast M=1.2 in flight
  
• LAMs must not be more than 30 tons
  
• LAM wing loading must not exceed 450 kg/m²
  
• LAMs must be able to transition from Aerospace Fighter to Battlemech and vice versa
  
• LAMs must be structurally stable up to 5G's
  
• LAMs must be able to engage land and air targets effectively

[Strikhedonia]

Land-air mechs were a horrible mistake that FASA made after watching too much Macross.

[Eximar]

Sarah McCallum, on 19 July 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Land-air mechs were a horrible mistake that FASA made after watching too much Macross.

+1

LAMS = Communism

[Monsoon]

I'm cool with them borrowing from Macross all the Destroids and Veritech. But the LAMs should have never been touched.

[Marketh]

Ummm, veritech are LAM
that's the whole point of 1st and 3rd mode....
Hence the phoenixhawk

I loved the 'unseen, as far as I'm concerned HG USA were just butthurt.
Disgusting big corporate rubbish by PLAYMATES INC, jealous that someone else was making profit off of the Macross rights.
It was a sad, sad day when the ruling went against FASA.

I personally /want/ all the 'unseen, including the LAM.
Although based on the system of the game, I don't imagine they'll implement any more Z-travel than JJ's allow.

[Strikhedonia]

Monsoon, on 19 July 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

I'm cool with them borrowing everything from Macross every anime they watched.

Fixed.

[Marketh]

Sarah McCallum, on 19 July 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Fixed.

Why not, that's all the anime owners do, copy all the good ideas from all the existent media and chop it up and stitch it back in their own format, incorporating their own story and design changes.

It's what almost all successful art does and that's just fine. Don't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to. I'd trade my left leg to see the rights go through court again and Tatsunoko confirm their rights being licensed to PGI(via the FASA name)... oh, what a dream.

[Sneaky B]

Well, the point of the redesign of LAMs was to make it less Macrossy and more Battletech-ish. The other Wasp I made was a bit Maddog-ish rather than humanoid.

Edited by Sneaky B, 19 July 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[BarHaid]

Don't mind the haters. Keep at it!

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarah McCallum, on 19 July 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Fixed.

Considering that Battledroids/ Battletech came along at a time when veryy little anime was known in the USA (G-Force (aka Gatchaman), Star-Blazers (Space Battleship Yamato) a little Speedracer, and yes, finally Robotech (itself a reworking of Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA) was all there was at the time, and it was still looked at as programming for thee kiddies, I think FASA did a good job bringing some of that feel more mainstream. Especially since they HAD secured legal rights.


The visual design of the earliest line of BattleMechs were taken from Macross and other anime, including many signature images. In later years FASA abandoned these images, and it was common speculation by fans that the decision was the result of a lawsuit brought against them by Playmates and Harmony Gold [USA] over the use of said images.^[5] No official broke the silence until 2007, after FASA had sold the BattleTech intellectual property to WizKids Games. Under license from them, the Classic BattleTech line developer for Fantasy Productions, Randall N. Bills explained that FASA had sued Playmates over the use of images owned by FASA, but received no compensation, even though Playmates was ordered to stop using the images in question. After realizing how the use of licensed images made them vulnerable to lawsuits and afraid that such a suit would bankrupt the company, FASA made the decision to only use images owned by them and them alone. The BattleMechs taken from the various anime sources were then considered "Unseen". When Fantasy Productions licensed the property, these "Unseen" images were expanded to include all art produced "out-of-house" – that is, whose copyrights resided with the creators, not the company. Catalyst Game Labs has continued this practice.^[6] On 24 June 2009, Catalyst Game Labs announced that they had secured the rights to the "unseen"; as a result, art depicting the original 'Mechs absent from publications for over a decade, can be legally used again.^[7] An update on 11 Aug. 2009 has placed the unseen restriction on several designs once again. This update affects only the designs whose images originated from Macross. Designs whose images originated from other anime such as Dougram and Crusher Joe are unaffected by this change and are still no longer considered unseen.^[8] By August 2011, the remaining images that were considered to be unseen were returned to unseen status due to continuing problems with license agreements.^[9]""

Seems to me there was nothing to fix. No one tried to claim they were original FASA designs, legal use was obtained, not FASA's fault that international licensing laws are so crappyily written, nor that Playmates, and HG happen to be run by douches.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 July 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Brenden]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 July 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Considering that Battledroids/ Battletech came along at a time when veryy little anime was known in the USA (G-Force (aka Gatchaman), Star-Blazers (Space Battleship Yamato) a little Speedracer, and yes, finally Robotech (itself a reworking of Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA) was all there was at the time, and it was still looked at as programming for thee kiddies, I think FASA did a good job bringing some of that feel more mainstream. Especially since they HAD secured legal rights.


The visual design of the earliest line of BattleMechs were taken from Macross and other anime, including many signature images. In later years FASA abandoned these images, and it was common speculation by fans that the decision was the result of a lawsuit brought against them by Playmates and Harmony Gold [USA] over the use of said images.^[5] No official broke the silence until 2007, after FASA had sold the BattleTech intellectual property to WizKids Games. Under license from them, the Classic BattleTech line developer for Fantasy Productions, Randall N. Bills explained that FASA had sued Playmates over the use of images owned by FASA, but received no compensation, even though Playmates was ordered to stop using the images in question. After realizing how the use of licensed images made them vulnerable to lawsuits and afraid that such a suit would bankrupt the company, FASA made the decision to only use images owned by them and them alone. The BattleMechs taken from the various anime sources were then considered "Unseen". When Fantasy Productions licensed the property, these "Unseen" images were expanded to include all art produced "out-of-house" – that is, whose copyrights resided with the creators, not the company. Catalyst Game Labs has continued this practice.^[6] On 24 June 2009, Catalyst Game Labs announced that they had secured the rights to the "unseen"; as a result, art depicting the original 'Mechs absent from publications for over a decade, can be legally used again.^[7] An update on 11 Aug. 2009 has placed the unseen restriction on several designs once again. This update affects only the designs whose images originated from Macross. Designs whose images originated from other anime such as Dougram and Crusher Joe are unaffected by this change and are still no longer considered unseen.^[8] By August 2011, the remaining images that were considered to be unseen were returned to unseen status due to continuing problems with license agreements.^[9]""

Seems to me there was nothing to fix. No one tried to claim they were original FASA designs, legal use was obtained, not FASA's fault that international licensing laws are so crappyily written, nor that Playmates, and HG happen to be run by douches.

If Dougram and Crusher Joe are unaffected, does this mean we could see a return in the Shadow Hawk, Galleon, Thunderbolt and Locust?
Also, LAMs, bad idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brenden, on 19 July 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

If Dougram and Crusher Joe are unaffected, does this mean we could see a return in the Shadow Hawk, Galleon, Thunderbolt and Locust?
Also, LAMs, bad idea.

Catalyst was planning to, but apparently some of the same legal licensing loopholes that caused so much headache with Robotech also could potentially get them there, so unless they were to find a way to actually extract an iron clad exclusive rights, I doubt it. And I doubt they will pay to do so, IF there is actually a why even (as HG has tried to claim exclusive rights for years, and has never actually won)

Someone brouught to my attention that the horrid Project Phoenix "reseens" apparently have been retconned to cover the level 1 version of the unseen to, or some such. I have a feeling Catalyst will be content to keep it that way.

It's one reason I am still trying to get Catalyst, or someone(preferably me! I need the money!) to commission some good looking reseens that pay homage to the originals.

[Sneaky B]

[Monsoon]

Marketh, on 19 July 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ummm, veritech are LAM
that's the whole point of 1st and 3rd mode....
Hence the phoenixhawk

I loved the 'unseen, as far as I'm concerned HG USA were just butthurt.
Disgusting big corporate rubbish by PLAYMATES INC, jealous that someone else was making profit off of the Macross rights.
It was a sad, sad day when the ruling went against FASA.

I personally /want/ all the 'unseen, including the LAM.
Although based on the system of the game, I don't imagine they'll implement any more Z-travel than JJ's allow.

I meant the humanoid design, giving us the Stinger, Wasp, Crusader and Phoenix Hawk. Not the transformers concept, which is cool for Robotech, but out of place in the Battletech Universe.

Sarah McCallum, on 19 July 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Fixed.

Lol, I was trying to just stick to the one IP that was the topic here.

[Feroce]

This looks like it's gonna be good! Keep at it man, don't listen to the haters.

[Sneaky B]

I know this topic isn't for everyone but may I ask design feedback.

[Feroce]

If I knew more of engineering a transforming robot, then I might pitch in, but the best I could offer is input on external details.

[XV88 Broadside]

From the perspective of a TT player, LAM's were neat and all, but were kinda broken. I'm not all that surprised that they were disavowed by the end of the Clan wars. In the fluff, the only factories that were capable of producing LAM's and the parts for them were destroyed or retooled by the Clans when they were captured. LAM's were IS tech only, the Clans wouldn't touch them (One JF lab on Huntress notwithstanding)

Having designed and played a few LAM's, I can tell you they had ridiculous mobility, but the exchange was nigh ineffective shooting (being subject to jump rules whenever moving in hybrid mode. There was no good reason not to play in hybrid mode.)

That said, I loved LAM's. I always felt cheated when they phased them out, but the fact was pulse lasers made them fantastically overpowered. I would cheerfully take on a star of clan mechs with a lance of LAM's. I might not win, but that star would be chewed up pretty good by the time I was done.

Good luck with your designs

[BarHaid]

Feedback...

Choosing a "chicken walker" as the mech mode is a good call, but is there any way that you can push the torso into a more vertical orientation? Just trying to get some of the original's lines in there too. It's going to be very difficult to turn the cockpit into a mech head. Hmm. But using the MWO style of "sunken heads", maybe the nose of the aerospace fighter doesn't have to change that much.

[Feroce]

BarHaid, on 20 July 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Feedback...

Choosing a "chicken walker" as the mech mode is a good call, but is there any way that you can push the torso into a more vertical orientation? Just trying to get some of the original's lines in there too. It's going to be very difficult to turn the cockpit into a mech head. Hmm. But using the MWO style of "sunken heads", maybe the nose of the aerospace fighter doesn't have to change that much.

Well this is just it, the cockpit when it's in fighter mode, sinks into the chest and has an armoured slab slide over top of it when it's in battlemech mode. It's nowhere near the head, which is basically a cluster of cameras to give the pilot a better field of view.