196 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yup, PGI is releasing the new skill tree in its final form that will never be changed and the amount of points required to unlock the new nodes will always remain exactly how they are now. It will never change. It is final.


Oh, wait...


Maybe it can be changed? Maybe we should calm down and not scream and shout like kindergarteners about millions of XP. Maybe we should provide feedback after we actually begin using the system.


And another thing that I feel must be pointed out: if you consider your bounty of Mechs to have been "Mastered" already and it's not fair to make you spec them again, then you're basically endorsing the old skill tree.



--------

UPDATE - Hey, everyone... Russ said on Twitter that the values in the previews are just placeholders, and that the time to Master your Mechs (75 nodes) will be similar in the new system to the old system.

Wow, I guess I was wrong... it's not in final form yet! Who would have guessed...?

Kael Posavatz, on 06 December 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

So...are we talking ~60-k or 180-k because we are no longer levelling 3?

I think I would be okay with the latter. It's the lack of info about whether the ReSpec will be monetized or not that is really bothering me.

Tbe only "monetizing" will come from when you start spec'ing under the new system, and you then later want to unspec and respec. You will need MC to get your nodes replenished if you want to re-respec.

When the new system drops, you get all your XP/GXP back and full C-Bill refunds on all affected modules.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 December 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[cazidin]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yup, PGI is releasing the new skill tree in its final form that will never be changed and the amount of points required to unlock the new nodes will always remain exactly how they are now. It will never change. It is final.

It will, then we'll rage on Twitter and Russ will tell us that "We knew about these problems and planned to fix them soon™" and then in a few days we'll get a partial fix with the rest of it having been pushed off for another 60-90 days™.

Edited by cazidin, 08 December 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I am not sure about other people, but for me I need to vocalise my hopes strongly that XP does not go the way of Banana money or Zimbabwe Dollars. All the mechs I mastered consist of years/hours of grinding. If PGI inflates the xp needed, of cause many will be salty. So best to vocalise now while it has not happened and hope PGI listens. Of cause, we should do it properly and not troll or rage, which in this forums is unlikely.

Also I do not see the problem for people to be the master of 300 mechs. Means they spent a lot of money on the game, at least for 300 mechbays at min. I would think PGI would love such people, cause they are the ones that have a much higher chance of whaling.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 04 December 2016 - 06:38 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

cazidin, on 04 December 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

It will, then we'll rage on Twitter and Russ will tell us that "We knew about these problems and planned to fix them soon™" and then in a fix days we'll get a partial fix with the rest pushed off for another 60-90 days™.

Hey, at least we'll get machine gun improvements before the skill tree gets revamped again. That's a guaranteed fact.

Gaden Phoenix, on 04 December 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

I am not sure about other people, but for me I need to vocalise my hopes strongly that XP does not go the way of Banana money or Zimbabwe Dollars. All the mechs I mastered consist of years/hours of grinding. If PGI inflates the xp needed, of cause many will be salty. So best to vocalise now while it has not happened and hope PGI listens. Of cause, we should do it properly and not troll or rage, which in this forums is unlikely.

Also I do not see the problem for people to be the master of 300 mechs. Means they spent a lot of money on the game, at least for 300 mechbays at min. I would think PGI would love such people, cause they are the ones that have a much higher chance of whaling.

I am one of those closed beta founding whales. Why am I not salty about leveling my Mechs again...? This is my message to you salty whales: if you consider your mechs to have been "Mastered" already that means you accepted the previous skill tree as a final product.
Chew on that.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 December 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[FupDup]

You do know that the REASON we're complaining right now is TO HELP THEM CHANGE IT, right?

If nobody raises any complaints, PGI won't see any reason to change it. Why would they change something that the entire playerbase thinks is perfect?

You sound just like one of those people that don't think people should make complaints about the PTR. "Oh, it's just PTR, it's not final yet! You can't criticize anything on it!"

Edited by FupDup, 04 December 2016 - 06:46 PM.

[DaZur]

Personally, I found the previous iteration as well as the 3-mech rule an absolute sham.

Now I look for actually working toward mastery of my mechs that is not some arbitrary grind... Now we choose our path and decide what that particular chassis' role is and how you intend to play it.

Let the salt workers salt...

[oldradagast]

Yes, because PGI has such a great track record of properly testing things before releasing them... I can't even get through that line on the internet without laughing.

More likely, based on past experience with Energy Draw, Info Warfare, and so on, they will either not release these changes at all, or will only release part of them, producing a mess of a system. Or, have we forgotten, Hoverjets, Community Warfare phase 3.1415, and all the other half-baked failures they've produced?

Look, you can blast all the "whiners" all you want, but you fail to address the points made:
- Veteran players are rightly ticked off that they'll go from dozens of fully mastered mechs to a handful.
- New players will have a longer grind to get useful skills, making them even easier to kill targets than they already are... and it's not like the game is rolling in new players as it is.
- With the removal of chassis-specific quirks, there will no longer be a good reason to play any mechs other than the ones with the best hardpoints and geometry.
- With the insane grind that is being proposed and the removal of the need for the 3 mechs of a kind rule, there will be far fewer reasons to even buy new mechs, which will reduce interest in the game and cut into PGI's profits which - let's face it - consist of selling mech packs.

All of the above are facts based upon what we currently know about the proposed system. Yes, it could change, but based on past experience with PGI, if the player base does not "whine" loud and long about proposed stupid ideas, those same ideas get shoved into the game without any real thought about the effects they have.

Edited by oldradagast, 04 December 2016 - 06:52 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

oldradagast, on 04 December 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

Yes, because PGI has such a great track record of properly testing things before releasing them... I can't even get through that line on the internet without laughing.

More likely, based on past experience with Energy Draw, Info Warfare, and so on, they will either not release these changes at all, or will only release part of them. producing a mess of a system. Or, have we forgotten, Hoverjets, Community Warfare phase 3.1415, and all the other half-baked failures they've produced?

Look, you can blast all the "whiners" all you want, but you fail to address the points made:
- Veteran players are rightly ticked off that they'll go from dozens of fully mastered mechs to a handful
- New players will have a longer grind to get useful skills, making them even easier to kill targets than they already are
- With the removal of chassis-specific quirks, there will no longer be a good reason to play any mechs other than the ones with the best hardpoints and geometry
- With the insane grind that is being proposed and the removal of the need for the 3 mechs of a kind rule, there will be far fewer reasons to even buy new mechs.

All of the above are facts based upon what we currently know about the proposed system. Yes, it could change, but based on past experience with PGI, if the player base does not "whine" loud and long about proposed stupid ideas, those same ideas get shoved into the game without any real thought about the effects they have.

I am one of those veterans and I am not ticked off because I don't consider the previous system to be a final Mastery system. If you're pissed that your mastered Mechs are no longer Mastered that means you accepted the previous system as the definition of mastering your Mech.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 December 2016 - 06:53 PM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

I am one of those closed beta founding whales. Why am I not salty about leveling my Mechs again...?

Err that is your own preference... I am not you and vice versa.

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

This is my message to you salty whales: if you consider your mechs to have been "Mastered" already that means you accepted the previous skill tree as a final product.
Chew on that.

So does that mean, I need to accept the need to grind again just because the new skill tree is might be better compared to the old skill tree?

Please note that the current skill tree was in use for 4 years. Thus represents 4 years of grind and time invested. Expecting people to be happy or ok that the value of the xp/their work is deflated (by alot) is, well not everyone can accept that.

I am unlike you in that, while I like the new skill tree, I do not accept the inflation of xp points required, and thus will champion against inflating xp points required.

Now we do not know if xp required will be in the millions but I personally want to champion against that before they implement it, so that the new skill system would be something I at least (and I hope the majority) will love.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 04 December 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gaden Phoenix, on 04 December 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

I am unlike you in that, while I like the new skill tree, I do not accept the inflation of xp points required, and thus will champion against inflating xp points required.

Champion at all you want, I support people expressing their opinions in a mature manner. Just don't act like a whiny baby, screaming about the end of the world like many people are who are complaining.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 December 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[oldradagast]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

I am one of those veterans and I am not ticked off because I don't consider the previous system to be a final Mastery system. If you're pissed that your mastered Mechs are no longer Master name or that means you accepted the previous system as the definition of mastering your Mech.

Whatever - you haven't addressed a single point anyone else has made about the new system as I summarized above and are instead trying to sweep this dumb idea under the rug with "Well, it never was the final product anyway."

Bull. If you play a game for close to FOUR years, and then somebody complete changes a key aspect of it on you, basically negating years worth of work, claiming, "Well, they said they might change it someday" is a pretty sad excuse to justify it.

The proposed new system is bunk, nothing more. It is an obvious crash-grab grind, puts newer players at a disadvantage, negates the work of veterans, and - by removing chassis specific quirks - kills any remaining diversity in the game. I have yet to see a single redeeming feature to it,

[El Bandito]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

I am one of those closed beta founding whales. Why am I not salty about leveling my Mechs again...? This is my message to you salty whales: if you consider your mechs to have been "Mastered" already that means you accepted the previous skill tree as a final product.
Chew on that.

I am fine with starting over from scratch. I am not fine with the grind becoming even more than what we have now.

[Felicitatem Parco]

oldradagast, on 04 December 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Whatever - you haven't addressed a single point anyone else has made about the new system as I summarized above and are instead trying to sweep this dumb idea under the rug with "Well, it never was the final product anyway."

Bull. If you play a game for close to FOUR years, and then somebody complete changes a key aspect of it on you, basically negating years worth of work, claiming, "Well, they said they might change it someday" is a pretty sad excuse to justify it.

The proposed new system is bunk, nothing more. It is an obvious crash-grab grind, puts newer players at a disadvantage, negates the work of veterans, and - by removing chassis specific quirks - kills any remaining diversity in the game. I have yet to see a single redeeming feature to it,

How is getting a full refund of all your experience points making it a ruinous waste of time?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 December 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[RestosIII]

Hiding quirks necessary to keep **** mechs from being **** behind grinding doesn't sound good to me. I need a lot more details on this system before I can get even close to promoting it, because there's a large chance a ton of IS mechs and Clan mechs are about to become about as valuable to us as a drum set was to Helen Keller. I don't think they should replace all quirks with skill trees, honestly. "Oh, but underperforming mechs might have more points available than others!" That still doesn't change the fact that they'll be terrible until you grind them out. The current skill system has nice bonuses, but it's not entirely necessary to master a mech and still have fun at T2-T1. Make it so all of our quirks are linked into it though, where you have to grind to get back to pre-basic levels of efficiency, and you've got a situation where no-one will want to buy a new mech or start up on one they haven't piloted before, because if they do, they're going to get stomped. A lot.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I swear that half of people complaining are acting like they're not even getting the experience points back.

[oldradagast]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

How was getting a full refund of all your experience points making it a ruinous waste of time?

Because all those experience points that fully leveled dozens of mechs now only fully level a handful - that should be obvious... and that doesn't even begin to address the idiocy of removing chassis specific quirks, thus reducing the game to committing only to long-grind the handful of mechs with ideal hardpoints and geometry.

It's like keeping people's salaries the same, but vastly raising the price on everything and then asking, "Gee, I don't get it - I'm paying you the same amount of money every week... why are you so angry?" Think of it as XP inflation and it may become clear what we're talking about.

Edited by oldradagast, 04 December 2016 - 07:01 PM.

[Dex Spero]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yup, PGI is releasing the new skill tree in its final form that will never be changed and the amount of points required to unlock the new nodes will always remain exactly how they are now. It will never change. It is final.


Oh, wait...


Maybe it can be changed? Maybe we should calm down and not scream and shout like kindergarteners about millions of XP. Maybe we should provide feedback after we actually begin using the system.

And this is a very radical concept: maybe a single MechWarrior pilot is not meant to be the absolute master of over 300 different kinds of vehicles...

And another thing that I feel must be pointed out: if you consider your bounty of Mechs to have been "Mastered" already, then you're basically endorsing the old skill tree.

Prosperity_Park, you stand before this tribunal charged with demanding reasonable and proportional responses from the forum members. This is the foulest of sins and you have been judged guilty without trial. Have you anything to say in your defense before you are burned at the stake and buried in an Urbanmech made of salt?

[Gaden Phoenix]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

How is getting a full refund of all your experience points making it a ruinous waste of time?

Well because of inflation, if the xp numbers shown in demo is correct. Because per mech you will get back 64500 XP. But now, based of demo, it will take about 3500000 XP per mech. Your 64500 XP and time spent getting that amount is now ... devalued. Thus people can see it as a waste of time spent.

Especially if going forward the amount of xp they give per match is inflated to match new amounts of xp required in new skill tree.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 04 December 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[oldradagast]

RestosIII, on 04 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Hiding quirks necessary to keep **** mechs from being **** behind grinding doesn't sound good to me. I need a lot more details on this system before I can get even close to promoting it, because there's a large chance a ton of IS mechs and Clan mechs are about to become about as valuable to us as a drum set was to Helen Keller. I don't think they should replace all quirks with skill trees, honestly. "Oh, but underperforming mechs might have more points available than others!" That still doesn't change the fact that they'll be terrible until you grind them out. The current skill system has nice bonuses, but it's not entirely necessary to master a mech and still have fun at T2-T1. Make it so all of our quirks are linked into it though, where you have to grind to get back to pre-basic levels of efficiency, and you've got a situation where no-one will want to buy a new mech or start up on one they haven't piloted before, because if they do, they're going to get stomped. A lot.

Exactly. De-quirking underperforming mechs will basically kill 90% of the mechs in the game. And, as you said, trying to hide those quirks that are REQUIRED to compete behind the laughably deep grind wall of the new skill system is simply idiotic.

There's no way to polish this "bull dropping" - it stinks. As proposed, we end up with far too little XP to fully level our mechs back to where they should be, AND our mechs are stripped of quirks, meaning any sub-par ones are basically worthless without wasting time or XP on them to give them back what they used to have for free.

End result: everyone will dump what little transferred XP they have into a handful of meta-mechs based on geometry (hardpoints and hitboxes) and the meta will be the most stale thing imaginable.

Edited by oldradagast, 04 December 2016 - 07:04 PM.

[DaZur]

Honestly, the number of XP points to me feels semi-irrelevant.

Old version = Grid/race to master to just be competitive with those who've already mastered.

New version = Still grinding... But with purpose and intent.

So the frustration is based on the point-count? Understand the difference between the two versions... IMHO arbitrarily reducing the point count effectively makes the new version too much like the old one.

Yes, I understand the frustrations of the Pokemech players who mastered all their mechs... Sorry, but I believe it's been understood the mastery system was a place-holder for a very long time now so I'm not entirely sympathetic.