196 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Well lets think, if we complain we're accepting the old broken system, and if we don't we accept millions of X.P grind, that's what this thread seems to be about.

Well lets just take the middle ground.

Everyone playin,g that takes more than a look at the old system, knows it's broken and needs to be replaced, but there has to be some middle ground.

If the new system requires 150-300 % more grinding to complete, many of those people that have 100-300 mechs to re master, are simply going to either walk, or not purchase another mech package until they have remastered them, which could take a year or more.

Which damages the games future.

This is an inarguable situation it can't be white knighted of salt mined, both sides have to be compromised.

Now I haven't logged on to the game since the day before Mechcon, there isn't much around here, going on that encourages me to want to log in, I'm waiting on full patch notes and tomorrow, I might download the patch I might not.

I'm still in a situation where I might continue playing, or walk away for good, but for the games sake these changes need to be put in place, but if the grind is on hard to extreme levels all the good it should bring will be wiped out over night.

We all know how P.G.I have a history of damaging themselves by taking good ideas and ruining them, by having extreme elements in the design.

This has been the case with Quirks, Long Tom, Energy Draw, Target locks, and looks very much like the same will happen with the new skill tree.

These extreme elements are even creeping into mech design with all high hard point builds.

Extremes ruin things

Now people can ignore these issues and just keep making digs at each other, and raging, or people can stop, sit back and actually think about what changes are needed to make the new system work, rather than just throw a lot of angst on the message boards.

Then put those ideas to P.G.I

Yes I know they don't have a great history of listening when it matters, they just throw the sledge hammer at it, and then drop it after the rage, but if you don't actually try then when the balls up arrives you can't say I did my best, and either carry on or walk away.

I've ranted I've raged on these forums as much as the next salty old vet, but I've still supported and played the game.
Frankly I'm done with that. I'm not going to burst a blood vessel, or risk a heart attack over god damn pixels, it's just not worth it.

The angst has just given over totally to apathy, not just with this game but to politics and dealing between the principle people of the whole Franchise which was evident by what's happened at Mechcon.

I'm now going to do what is the only sensible thing and that's vote with my wallet and the log in button.

If people feel the need to rant rage just carry on, but it really isn't worth it.

[DaZur]

Cathy, on 05 December 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

I hear you... But I think this middle ground is a concession that would largely mitigate the whole purpose of the skill tree.

Like I inferred elsewhere, the old iteration was nothing but a race to master just to feel competitive. Even at that, the skills were arbitrary.

This skill tree/mastery has some aspect of personalization and as such, there's a sense of grinding with a purpose and intent. neutering the process by reducing it so it's not a taxation essentially makes it nothing more than a race to master again IMHO.

Lastly, this whole 300 mech thing... I'm sorry but save maybe select few folks routinely touch more than a half dozen mechs through normal course of play. Yes, it a sting to know all the hours poured into mastering them is unceremoniously rendered mute... But the inference that most folks will feel a need to go out and re-master them all is a little hysteric...

[NoiseCrypt]

DaZur, on 05 December 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

"he said that it was done for all intents an purpose"

I think folks are biasedly reading way too much into this to infer it's not open to revision...

So if we just use bible interpretation methodes everything is all right ?

Edited by NoiseCrypt, 05 December 2016 - 07:47 AM.

[Barantor]

NoiseCrypt, on 05 December 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

So if we just use bible interpretation methodes everything is all right ?

Jumping to conclusions.....

[GrimRiver]

I'm hoping hero mechs will have their native quirks locked and you can only apply basic stuff like:

Heat perks
Torso twist
Speed boost
Accel-Decel
Extra mod slot

The basic stuff currently ingame along with new JJ, sensor, ect perks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 December 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

Players: We want end game progression!
PGI: Ok, here is end game progression.
Players: But now all my mechs wont be mastered anymore!
PGI: Erm, what? So what end game progression did you want then?
Players: Erm.. something something.. er.. Cosmetic maybe?.
PGI: Our research indicates that most people don't consider that to be actual progression though, as they cannot see the outside of their mechs while they play them..
Players: WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN NEW PLAYERS?!

2 things:

• As someone else said, I don't think anyone is seriously wanting end-game progression for mechs, this is ultimately a PvP game that is trying to survive on the sale of new mechs. Making mechs have "end-game" progression seems counter-intuitive to selling mechs. This is why games like TF2 and Overwatch use XP to sell cosmetics and not giving power with XP.
  
• As far as actual end-game, that was supposed to be CW was it not? Something for units to work towards once they git gud? Not that it matters, the end-game should always be some sort of rank queue or something like that.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 December 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

Did I miss something? The skill tree is still being tweaked, it's not set in stone. Russ said himself that that is what the next month is for.

I already explained this on the first page. The point of us giving feedback right now is TO HELP THEM TWEAK IT. They're not going to know what to tweak if we don't tell them.

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 05 December 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I already explained this on the first page. The point of us giving feedback right now is TO HELP THEM TWEAK IT. They're not going to know what to tweak if we don't tell them.

My problem with "feedback" is the too many people interpret it... I.e. "Do it exactly like I suggest or fear my reprisal for not listening to me".

Patterned history shows neither PGI nor certain segments of this community are very good at concession and common ground...

[NoiseCrypt]

Barantor, on 05 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Jumping to conclusions.....

No. I'm just working with what we got so far. And until somone provides additional info or clarifications we are working with 750k xp to master a mech. With the quote : "It is done".

There might be tons of missing info. But we don't know that. So all you got right now is naive speculation.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 05 December 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I already explained this on the first page. The point of us giving feedback right now is TO HELP THEM TWEAK IT. They're not going to know what to tweak if we don't tell them.

I am not talking about that, I am questioning WTF this thread is doing by declaring the new skill tree complete and set in stone and shipping as-is when Russ himself said exactly the opposite.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DaZur, on 05 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Patterned history shows neither PGI nor certain segments of this community are very good at concession and common ground...

PGI also has a habit of back-pedaling when met with large criticism over bad decisions.

[DaZur]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 December 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

PGI also has a habit of back-pedaling when met with large criticism over bad decisions.

Understood... That said, I think this one is a bit more driven by fear of the unknown and a healthy dose of hyperbole.

[Greyhart]

OK please someone explain why you would need to have all 75 skill points on a mech in the new system?

I know under the current system that you need to elite the mech as then you get double basics but there are no basics or doubling there of under the new system.

Is that extra 2.5% really all that important?

Now I am not saying they shouldn't have a scaling of of xp needed but I do think people are in a mindset based on the current system that to be viable you have to have unlocked everything on the mech. Which may not be true under the new system.

[Widowmaker1981]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 December 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

2 things:

• As someone else said, I don't think anyone is seriously wanting end-game progression for mechs, this is ultimately a PvP game that is trying to survive on the sale of new mechs. Making mechs have "end-game" progression seems counter-intuitive to selling mechs. This is why games like TF2 and Overwatch use XP to sell cosmetics and not giving power with XP.
  
• As far as actual end-game, that was supposed to be CW was it not? Something for units to work towards once they git gud? Not that it matters, the end-game should always be some sort of rank queue or something like that.

CW isnt going to happen properly, because PGI dont have the guts to deal with the rage that would ensue when they lock everyone into their initial faction forever - and that is the only way to give it any persistent meaning. as long as good units can faction hop, they will, and faction strength will forever be decided by where the good players fancy being this week. Ive given up on it entirely, and would like a matchmade version of the invasion gamemode (or some other dropdeck game mode, with fewer choke points).

Im concerned by the skill tree apparently replacing quirks for sure (though i do like the idea that ill be able to 'quirk' my shadowcat appropriately for the one loadout i like on it) - because it means bad mechs will be unplayable at the start, which isnt good. Im also concerned that it will be hell on wheels to balance Clan vs IS with this system.

However, i dont mind if there is a long journey to 100% a mech, as long as 90% of the combat effectiveness can be obtained relatively fast.. its always annoyed me that the millions of XP i have on some chassis is totally useless.. ill absolutely rage at PGI once i see the system and know what it will do, exactly (if its flawed), but right now we dont have enough data.

in the interest of openness though, i will admit that when i used to play MMOs, i always preferred the korean grindy sort. I didnt like how in 'western' style (WoW, AoC, WAR etc) the leveling process was just a precurser to starting the game, and preferred that being a high level actually meant something.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 December 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[NoiseCrypt]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 December 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

I am not talking about that, I am questioning WTF this thread is doing by declaring the new skill tree complete and set in stone and shipping as-is when Russ himself said exactly the opposite.

Or he said the exact opposite of the thing that you think he said.
He said "Done" and he said "needs QA testing".

To me that sounds like they are testing software stability and not game play impact.

[NoiseCrypt]

Greyhart, on 05 December 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

OK please someone explain why you would need to have all 75 skill points on a mech in the new system?

I know under the current system that you need to elite the mech as then you get double basics but there are no basics or doubling there of under the new system.

Is that extra 2.5% really all that important?

Now I am not saying they shouldn't have a scaling of of xp needed but I do think people are in a mindset based on the current system that to be viable you have to have unlocked everything on the mech. Which may not be true under the new system.

For propper min/maxing you would do one tree at a time. Which means that 15 points would make your mech super awesome at UAC5s or 25 would give you super awesome agility.

If you end op playing a 40 point mech vs a 75 point mech, then you will, at best, be screwed in two to three areas.

If you didn't min/max, then you will be screwed in all areas...

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 December 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

• As someone else said, I don't think anyone is seriously wanting end-game progression for mechs, this is ultimately a PvP game that is trying to survive on the sale of new mechs. Making mechs have "end-game" progression seems counter-intuitive to selling mechs. This is why games like TF2 and Overwatch use XP to sell cosmetics and not giving power with XP.

I thought that TF2 didn't have XP? Or did they add that in while after I stopped playing it out of boredom?

[Khobai]

TF2 has hats though, thats an improvement over this game

[SeaLabCaptn]

Man, I just don't know.

I don't know when the era of providing the customer with basic, valuable, pertinent information on your product ended. I don't know if XP needed to similarly "master" a mech in the future is more or less. I don't know if I'm going to have to repurchase sold mechs to reapply XP that was already applied. I don't know if I get space bucks for that module I won out of a chance pack, or instead get my 25 mc/key back. I don't know what 12 mechs are having quirks removed, so I don't know what I should be giving a "final ride" before changes. I don't know if my barely mastered Atas needs more time now while the getting is good, or later (because I have little to no official word on what "later" brings). I don't know why F2P games think it's a good idea to radically alter the economy model this deep into a game's life. I don't know if they've heard one in the hand is worth two in the bush?

I know radically changing the game tends to annoy those already familiar with it, and is rarely worth risking for a new audience. I know a little communication and community polling can go a long way. I know I've lost interest in playing until I know more. I know I'm glad I don't pay real world currency for F2P games that make huge unannounced, ill-informed changes to the basic functions of the game. I know removing the law of 3 seems nice, but I see it as an attempt to revive FW, which still seems unremarkable. I know showing customers respect pays dividends.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Lightfoot, on 05 December 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

I don't think I have earned more than 350k on any mech. Maybe because I didn't have too earn more. But the other thing I would ask is: say I do load 750k into a mech and it's the new meta and everyone whines for it to be burned and come for it with their torches alight, will it then be nerfed and I am left with a steaming pile of 750k junk? That would not be right. Your reward for excellent mech construction and skilling is next month's nerf.

That's the thing...without quirks, how can they even balance out the excellent mechs with the sub-par ones, especially when you look at IS vs Clan? Maybe give sub-par mechs higher skill tree values for each skill point spent?