141 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Appogee, on 06 December 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

How will that be any different to when I've dropped with you previously...?

[Ghostrider0067]

[Bud Crue]

DaZur, on 06 December 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

You talking to me?

This is where clearly we diverge... I'm (one of few apparently) who believe some mechs are inherently/organically better than others and the lesser mechs should not be artificially elevated with intent to keep them viable and relative with their class equivalents.

The answer why is because "constantly moving finish line". As we move forward in timeline, there will always be a mech they pushes that classes power creep... Either in design, hardpoint, hitbox or technology. It's inevitable and unavoidable.

If the line will constantly move is the expectation for PGI to re-balance everything off that apex example? I argue it tough enough to balance this game without the finish line constantly moving.

I hear you and understand your point regarding potential obsolescence and wanting to keep all things viable... IMHO, it's just not possible without diluting everything to a watery beige glob.

Yeah, I gotta think PGI is going to go with that glob, otherwise we may as well just go back to the old MW version of advancement wherein heavier meant better. Not to mention that if PGI blatantly embraced potential obsolescence of mech "content" then folks would have no reason to run anything other than an Arctic Cheetah, Kodiak-3 and maybe a few other mechs. Not exactly gonna sell many mechs that way, know what I mean?

[DaZur]

Bud Crue, on 06 December 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

Yeah, I gotta think PGI is going to go with that glob, otherwise we may as well just go back to the old MW version of advancement wherein heavier meant better. Not to mention that if PGI blatantly embraced potential obsolescence of mech "content" then folks would have no reason to run anything other than an Arctic Cheetah, Kodiak-3 and maybe a few other mechs. Not exactly gonna sell many mechs that way, know what I mean?

There's nothing saying through the new skill tree that those underachieving mechs can't get to that level of equity though.

It just feels like it keeps coming back to instant gratification / competitiveness... Back to the race to min/max.

If I had a particular underachieving mech (and I have several that I love) I would definitely make concerted effort to drive it's skill-tree so that I can maximize it's potential. For me... I'm okay with a journey to get there. Hell, that's what I wanted and signed up for.

That said... I'm sure you'll agree, I'm a "special kind" of player.

Edited by DaZur, 06 December 2016 - 01:12 PM.

[Requiemking]

RestosIII, on 06 December 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Alrighty then, gonna respond to this hopefully before I fall unconscious from meds.

#1. Clans were experimenting with BattleMech designs a good deal at the time, and I don't see it as a liability. In this game, it's a pro.

#2. Outdone by other mechs, eh? The Kodiak was a power creep monster 10 tons heavier than it, the Dire Wolf is slow as molasses, the Highlander IIC is just a lurm chassis as far as I'm concerned, and the Supernova is a good deal slower than the MK2.

#3. Because it featured prominently in a previous game, it shouldn't be added to this one? I didn't realize I was hurting anyone's feelings by daring to ask for a mech that was in a previous game, and not advocating for one of the more unknown mechs, like the Porcupine.

Finally, I'd love to know what your jab about either me or another pro MK2 player "embarrassing ourselves" in a balance thread is about. Because I'm sure I'll love this one, since it definitely has to do with us wanting a mech, and not some sort of grudge.

Anyways, asleep now, will respond to whatever you think up when I wake tomorrow, if this thread is still here.

#1: Clan Seafox experimented with making new battlemechs. The other Clans just upgraded older ones. There is a difference.

#2: The Highlander IIC runs Lurms, Brawling builds, ERPPC side-poke, and Twin AC builds pretty effectively. The Supernova may be slower, but that just means that it will out-muscle the Knockoff. The Direwolf can run the much vaunted dual Gauss arms, and the Kodiak is the Kodiak.

As for my jab earlier, here you go.

https://mwomercs.com...t-mad-cat-mkii/

Read from page 5 onward for Imperius embarrassing himself by thinking he knows how Light mechs should perform.

[RestosIII]

Requiemking, on 06 December 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

#1: Clan Seafox experimented with making new battlemechs. The other Clans just upgraded older ones. There is a difference.

#2: The Highlander IIC runs Lurms, Brawling builds, ERPPC side-poke, and Twin AC builds pretty effectively. The Supernova may be slower, but that just means that it will out-muscle the Knockoff. The Direwolf can run the much vaunted dual Gauss arms, and the Kodiak is the Kodiak.

As for my jab earlier, here you go.

https://mwomercs.com...t-mad-cat-mkii/

Read from page 5 onward for Imperius embarrassing himself by thinking he knows how Light mechs should perform.

#1. The Imp would like to talk with you about the Clans experimenting with Battlemech designs recently.

#2. The Highlander IIC can run LRMs and Splat, but those are about the extent of what I've seen work on the poor thing. It's not in a good place. The Supernova will be slower and lower to the ground, which means it'll have a tougher time getting into good firing positions and escaping bad situations. The Direwolf sure can run dual Gauss arms. But it's also a walking pillbox, with the same agility as one, with arms that are infamous for smacking light mechs that are in positions where you can't see your own arms. And we can both just agree that the Kodiak is the Kodiak, so there's no point in bringing it up for this discussion.

In regards to the balancing discussion with Imperius, I disagree with him on the subject of light mechs, I won't defend him on that. I still don't understand what it has to do with the Mad Cat Mk II, and our campaign to have it added though. Still sounds like you having a grudge to me.

[Requiemking]

RestosIII, on 06 December 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

#1. The Imp would like to talk with you about the Clans experimenting with Battlemech designs recently.

#2. The Highlander IIC can run LRMs and Splat, but those are about the extent of what I've seen work on the poor thing. It's not in a good place. The Supernova will be slower and lower to the ground, which means it'll have a tougher time getting into good firing positions and escaping bad situations. The Direwolf sure can run dual Gauss arms. But it's also a walking pillbox, with the same agility as one, with arms that are infamous for smacking light mechs that are in positions where you can't see your own arms. And we can both just agree that the Kodiak is the Kodiak, so there's no point in bringing it up for this discussion.

In regards to the balancing discussion with Imperius, I disagree with him on the subject of light mechs, I won't defend him on that. I still don't understand what it has to do with the Mad Cat Mk II, and our campaign to have it added though. Still sounds like you having a grudge to me.

#1:The Imp was designed well before the Dragoons arrived in the IS. Still falls under the moniker of "upgraded Older mech".

#2:The Highlander can run a mixed Brawler build on the IIC Prime, quad ERPPCs on the A, and Twin UAC10s on the C.

I'm just sick of him acting like the majority agrees with him, when he shows zero evidence to prove it. If anything, that thread proves exactly the opposite.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Johnny Z, on 06 December 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Ok. But I still think the units you mentioned want the exact same thing when it is concerning legit players.
Random players can handle losing to guilds in a fair fight. GUILDS CANNOT HANDLE LOSING TO RANDOMS IN A FAIR FIGHT.

That is not entirely true. Just as you called me out for making generalized statements, I’m going to do the same to you. There are units, plenty of them, who don’t care if they get beaten by Randoms. To be clear, these units were either A: good sports or B: a casual/fun unit who really just wants to play MWO with their friends as a group/unit.

I experienced this when I was with both the Windbourne Highlanders and Equestrian Royal Guard.
With regard to the cheating you say is going on, I have not observed it taking place personally. I am not saying it doesn’t happen, only that I have not observed it. And the one unit that I was in that has been accused of cheating (MercStar), they adamantly denied it and Tony is (assuming he’s still running things) adamantly against it, like to the point of kicking people out. At least that’s the attitude he presented to me at any rate…

Johnny Z, on 06 December 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

My main point is that players, just want a good game, in guilds or not. The interests of a few hackers/cheats/bullies/trolls from competitor games or what ever have little to do with making this a good game.

I can agree to that. In fact, it’s the fact that I am more in the casual camp than anything else… unfortunately, I also realize that PGI has decided to take MWO in the direction of e-sports, and therefore, they are going to be more inclined to listen to the comp-crowd when it comes to balancing and such.

Mystere, on 06 December 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

You seem to talking as if this "community" speaks with one voice. It does not.

What could be argued is that PGI is listening to the wrong section of this "community".

If that is your interpretation, that is fine…

…but if that’s the case, then you completely miss the point.

My point is not that the community is speaking with one voice, rather that all of the flak PGI gets for doing [insert thing here] and “not listening to the community” when that is exactly *NOT* the case. The fact of the matter is that everything that has been done since CW3 (to include CW3 itself) was done at the behest of this community.

You won’t hear me suggest that these were optimal choices on PGI’s part, or that I agreed with those voices of the community. But I am saying that they *are* part of the community.

Personally, I think the only time PGI should listen to this community at all is *only* if it’s asked for in the first place regardless of their placement as a Founder, Whale or whatever because it’s been clear to me since 2013 that this community doesn’t know what it wants.

[Baulven]

Appogee, on 06 December 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

How will that be any different to when I've dropped with you previously...?

I will bump draft you into the open all day long.

[Mystere]

AnimeFreak40K, on 06 December 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

…but if that’s the case, then you completely miss the point.

My point is not that the community is speaking with one voice, rather that all of the flak PGI gets for doing [insert thing here] and “not listening to the community” when that is exactly *NOT* the case. The fact of the matter is that everything that has been done since CW3 (to include CW3 itself) was done at the behest of this community.

You won’t hear me suggest that these were optimal choices on PGI’s part, or that I agreed with those voices of the community. But I am saying that they *are* part of the community.

Personally, I think the only time PGI should listen to this community at all is *only* if it’s asked for in the first place regardless of their placement as a Founder, Whale or whatever because it’s been clear to me since 2013 that this community doesn’t know what it wants.

No I did not, and people listening to the wrong people is exactly my point.

[xSleeZyx]

DaZur, on 06 December 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

There's nothing saying through the new skill tree that those underachieving mechs can't get to that level of equity though.

It just feels like it keeps coming back to instant gratification / competitiveness... Back to the race to min/max.

If I had a particular underachieving mech (and I have several that I love) I would definitely make concerted effort to drive it's skill-tree so that I can maximize it's potential. For me... I'm okay with a journey to get there. Hell, that's what I wanted and signed up for.

That said... I'm sure you'll agree, I'm a "special kind" of player.

In my opinion, it's fine to play non meta mechs, i do it aswell. Hence i was in t5 for longest time.
Then i wanted to step up my game. Now i'm almost t2. WIth realy few games played.
Why? Because i played the mechs i'm good at, mastered and got modules.
Whenever i play random mech i dont have mastered i do piss poor in. Recent example is, im late into the kdk3 hype. But i love dakka. So i bought a kdk3 after nerfs and all... Yea i suck at it.. mostly.
I still however try play competetivly, which rises my bar.
There has nothing to do with min-maxing-instagratification you speak of.

But maybe that's why ur still t3 after all these years aswell.
Sorry i dont wanna bash you, but it triggers me. That poeple (yes such as myself in t3) claims everything is fine cuz its their way of playing. And so on.

New exp system as is, going to kill all of us that is somewhat casual, even hardcore players.

Anyway i feel i read into this alot more than i should, beer and all that.
But ur instant gratification thing triggered me badly. - Thats the last thing i want. But i dont want to grind 2 years for 2 mechs either.
I play competetive BUT in PUG play, which is hard enough as it is. I don't need it to become any harder than it already is...
Alright sorry im rambling away again.

I blame the beer, sort of. Anyway.

Have a good night

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 05 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yep, those reworks didn't do jack to save CW. If anything, they hastened its demise.

The Long Tom Tactical nuke...

Did that do more than the PUG stomping?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I just want the song in that skill tree video. Reminds me of the Clans thanks to the way Jeehun Hwang did the Clans in MW2 with lots of percussion instruments and the IS in MW2:Mercs with lots of string instruments.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Mystere, on 06 December 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

No I did not, and people listening to the wrong people is exactly my point.

Fair enough.

Mcgral18, on 06 December 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

The Long Tom Tactical nuke...

Did that do more than the PUG stomping?

Personally, I don't think so.

The relentless PUG stomping, 'LOL Git Gud' and 'Join a unit' are what has done irrepairable damage to CW.

Long Tom didn't do anything to help matters either.

Though to be fair, it was asked for though, and on paper, the idea seemed sound, especially since the implementation and mechanic for bringing it into use addressed other things that were asked for too.


Frankly, I have my doubts that CW is salvageable. The game mode has established a reputation in the minds of most players that it is not friendly to casuals and only comp-players with comp teams belong there...and I have my doubts that anything PGI does will ever do anything to change that perception.

[RestosIII]

AnimeFreak40K, on 06 December 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Fair enough.


Personally, I don't think so.

The relentless PUG stomping, 'LOL Git Gud' and 'Join a unit' are what has done irrepairable damage to CW.

Long Tom didn't do anything to help matters either.

Though to be fair, it was asked for though, and on paper, the idea seemed sound, especially since the implementation and mechanic for bringing it into use addressed other things that were asked for too.


Frankly, I have my doubts that CW is salvageable. The game mode has established a reputation in the minds of most players that it is not friendly to casuals and only comp-players with comp teams belong there...and I have my doubts that anything PGI does will ever do anything to change that perception.

I just realized... When exactly is LT going away? I probably missed it somewhere, but I thought it was getting the axe finally, but I can't find anything on a date.

[AnimeFreak40K]

IIRC, next week, when FW4.1 comes out...but I could be wrong. It was announced as being a thing in 'December', so... yeah.

[MischiefSC]

AnimeFreak40K, on 06 December 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Fair enough.


Personally, I don't think so.

The relentless PUG stomping, 'LOL Git Gud' and 'Join a unit' are what has done irrepairable damage to CW.

Long Tom didn't do anything to help matters either.

Though to be fair, it was asked for though, and on paper, the idea seemed sound, especially since the implementation and mechanic for bringing it into use addressed other things that were asked for too.


Frankly, I have my doubts that CW is salvageable. The game mode has established a reputation in the minds of most players that it is not friendly to casuals and only comp-players with comp teams belong there...and I have my doubts that anything PGI does will ever do anything to change that perception.

That's funny, since no comp teams play or really have played FW since CW 2.0.

LT shoved a ton of people out the door, that's true. The bulk left because there was no point to it; the dots were meaningless, IS/Clan balance was terrible for most the time, being a loyalist was always dramatically inferior to being a merc but being a loyalist was the main draw for most to FW.

Then all that got effectively ignored for huge stretches of time, and now is just getting shot in the head and buried to make QP with respawns, 2 factions and a map that is, if it's even possible, less relevant than before.

Most the population of most units pugs a significant amount of time. They just play with other groups or even in a pug-ish team try to help them play, well, as a team. What got and still gets people stomped is wanting to play QP style in a FW environment. That won't change, so with the new 1 bukkit solution those pugs who're going to give it a try?

They're going to get stomped, hard.

[AnimeFreak40K]

MischiefSC, on 06 December 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

That's funny, since no comp teams play or really have played FW since CW 2.0.

LT shoved a ton of people out the door, that's true. The bulk left because there was no point to it; the dots were meaningless, IS/Clan balance was terrible for most the time, being a loyalist was always dramatically inferior to being a merc but being a loyalist was the main draw for most to FW.

Then all that got effectively ignored for huge stretches of time, and now is just getting shot in the head and buried to make QP with respawns, 2 factions and a map that is, if it's even possible, less relevant than before.

Most the population of most units pugs a significant amount of time. They just play with other groups or even in a pug-ish team try to help them play, well, as a team. What got and still gets people stomped is wanting to play QP style in a FW environment. That won't change, so with the new 1 bukkit solution those pugs who're going to give it a try?

They're going to get stomped, hard.

...and all of that makes my exact point.

FW was dying a slow painful death due to any number of different reasons before CW3 was a thing.

[DaZur]

xSleeZyx, on 06 December 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

No worries...

My comment (the instant gratification part) was not intended to be derogatory toward players like yourself... It's directed at the arbitrary skill tree that forces/makes players feel they have no recourse but race to mastery in order to be competitive. The instant gratification part comes on the heels that players are forced to feel they have to it immediately lest they are rendered impotent.

Point to remember... "We'll all be in the same boat" effectively.

Admittedly, the folks who can play 24-7 will advance much faster but that's nature of the beast... That said, and this is important to understand. Your grind of the skill tree will not be the same as my grind and mine will be different than others. This grind of the skill trees will not happen over night as the present one allows and it will have purpose and meaning in regards to how closely it matches out particular play style versus the arbitrary crap we have now.

Folks have to clear their mind about the skill tree because as it presently exists, it's poisonous and has set forth irrational fears of being left behind and impotent...

[Dee Eight]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 06 December 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

I will complain and ruin it for anyone I damn well please. I don't remember god dying and making you the ruler of MWO.

How's the view under your bridge ?