37 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

I agree with the consumables being removed, or at least merged into certain equipment.

• Coolant flush nonsense could be made into actual coolant pods that you'd need to allocate critslots and tonnage for,
  
• Air/Arty strikes could require a TAG and a Command Console,
  
• UAVs could take up a tonnage and critslots (i mean they have enough armor to take 10 damage, that's like at least a third of a ton in armor alone, add the fact that it has better sensors than a BAP, can counter ECM, etc, plus should have enough fuel to stay airborne for whatever time it stays airborne, that's like 2-3 tons at least)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 06 December 2016 - 02:57 AM.

[a gaijin]

I know this is "just a game" but if we wanted to do radar deprivation at least semi realistically it would be a half ton per weight class to account for the radar absorbant material that is attached all over the mech's largest radar cross section areas.

So a half ton for lights and 2 tons for assaults.

[Unnatural Growth]

The problem with Ban Fanatics is,

Sooner or later they get around to screaming about banning something that you like.

Such is the way of zealots and tyrants.

My take is to leave consumables alone. It's a "micro transaction" mechanic, both for Cbills and MC. I doubt very much PGI will do anything to consumables. You have to weigh which consumables you take per mech, and can tailor the consumables for the role you want. Plus you have to buy each consumable, and justify (to yourself) whether or not the match/time/place you are in warrants spending it on that battlefield.

[Quxudica]

Vellron2005, on 06 December 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

Removing consumables?

I cannot disagree more with this idea!

Using consumables, UAV in particular, was one of the biggest and coolest new things introduced in a MW game.. The UAV is the first "new" thing added to the franchise I've seen that did not exist in any other MW game, and a well placed UAV is one of the few tactical things you can do on the battlefield.

To remove them would be a great mistake..

I would like cool shot's to be more like in MW4, an integral part of EVERY mech, perhaps re-usable like jump jets, and arty/air strikes are also a great tactical asset.

They make us remember that mechs aren't the only thing on the battlefield, so at least until I have my own tanks, elementals and aerotech fighters, I'm keeping my artillery and air strikes, spank you very much!

Don't lobby to make this game even less immersive for the sake of making it more like just another shooter!

You didn't read the post, they still exist. They just aren't magic cards that require zero thought anymore and instead become equipment like TAG, NARC and the Command Console.

Quote

You have to weigh which consumables you take per mech, and can tailor the consumables for the role you want. Plus you have to buy each consumable, and justify (to yourself) whether or not the match/time/place you are in warrants spending it on that battlefield

Which consumables you take are usually blindingly obvious, it doesn't require much thought. Extremely hot build? Throw a coolant in there. Heat not a problem? Throw a strike in there. UAV is always slotted. Also the CBill costs of the consumables are negligible. 40k for a drone is not going to discourage their use, especially in group-content as those that run with statics are likely swimming in to many cbills already. I play purely in QP, usually with PuGs, and I've never balked at using a consumable due to price. The MC variants should, frankly, have never existed in the first place and I will never ever buy them.. or even use them despite having massed a stockpile of dozens of MC consumables over the years.

Davers, on 05 December 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

No thanks. No need to gimp light mechs more by having them lose weight and crit slots to carry things like UAVs.

This actually addresses a reason light mechs are so gimped in an indirect manner. MWO has a near complete lack of equipment to put into it's mechs that aren't weapons or ammo, thus every mech is built like an assault - focused entirely on killing things. There needs to be a worthwhile alternative. Not every light mech chassis is meant to be pure combat oriented, many are scouts and Information Warfare platforms but those roles are completely non-existent in MWO because nothing supports them. Every mech can bring UAVs and every mech can bring artillery call-ins, so when a 75 ton direct fire/sniper heavy has the same support-kit as a 35 ton light what role does that light fill?

We need reasons to no use every single point of tonnage for weapons, if we had effective and useful alternatives then pure alpha-boating would no longer be the name of the game. Also by restricting UAV usage to a few chassis, you get another indirect buff to lights. Fewer UAV carriers on the field mean it becomes easier for a fast light to sneak around undetected, and adds tremendous importance to enemy UAV carriers as targets, which strike-lights could pick out and try to kill before they send up their drones.

Wecx, on 05 December 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

A predator drone is Twenty-seven feet long and sporting a 55-foot wingspan , UAV in MWO doesn't come close.
Good thing you didn't wager anything.

Wecx, on 05 December 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

A predator drone is Twenty-seven feet long and sporting a 55-foot wingspan , UAV in MWO doesn't come close.
Good thing you didn't wager anything.

The actual recon-drones of the BT universe weight 2-3 tons. The Path Track and Nap-Find. But again, I'll reitterate for a third time for those that refuse to actually read; It's not about realism, or lore accuracy for that matter, it's about fleshing out a pittfully underdeveloped mechanic that could be used to improve the game.

Nik Reaper, on 05 December 2016 - 09:27 PM, said:

... Is this not the theme of MWO ?
Why expect that from all the things, some much larger and more impactful, this is one with a priority?
On the other hand if it's just adding to a long list.. oki moving along, nothing to see here.

It is, but that doesn't mean we can't hope.. even if it is just a fools hope.

Edited by Quxudica, 06 December 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I never liked the fact that cool shot was implemented into this game, and especially as a consumable. In a game that tries to use heat management as a crucial part of game play, making a consumable to help bypass that part (even if it is short lived) seems rather hypocritical. I'd rather just see it permanently removed.

As for UAV, I kind of like that it is a consumable if only because it means there is no weight penalty for a light mech to carry one. I also wouldn't mind if there was a limitation to what mechs could actually equip an UAV. I think they could be limited to light and medium mechs only (maybe even more specific models instead of an entire weight class).

If there does have to be some penalty for carrying a UAV (and I am not sure there needs to be), then maybe having the UAV tied to BAP or something along those lines might be ok. Again, it would only come on BAP when installed on certain traditionally "scouting" light and medium mechs. Like I said though, I don't think the UAV has to be tied to something, but if it had to be, I could see that being the item.

[rolly]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's a waste of potential for what could be interesting mechanics. More could be done.

This is pretty much what has been going on for this game for the last 4 years. I doubt a mechanic like consumables would be any different or need a change to improve it.

Sure if more than one UAV was to be carried in battle or simply reusable then yes make it a 1/2 ton slot. But otherwise its so trivial. Its one fragment of the illusion of information warfare.

Edited by rolly, 06 December 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Davers]

Quxudica, on 06 December 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

You didn't read the post, they still exist. They just aren't magic cards that require zero thought anymore and instead become equipment like TAG, NARC and the Command Console.




Which consumables you take are usually blindingly obvious, it doesn't require much thought. Extremely hot build? Throw a coolant in there. Heat not a problem? Throw a strike in there. UAV is always slotted. Also the CBill costs of the consumables are negligible. 40k for a drone is not going to discourage their use, especially in group-content as those that run with statics are likely swimming in to many cbills already. I play purely in QP, usually with PuGs, and I've never balked at using a consumable due to price. The MC variants should, frankly, have never existed in the first place and I will never ever buy them.. or even use them despite having massed a stockpile of dozens of MC consumables over the years.



This actually addresses a reason light mechs are so gimped in an indirect manner. MWO has a near complete lack of equipment to put into it's mechs that aren't weapons or ammo, thus every mech is built like an assault - focused entirely on killing things. There needs to be a worthwhile alternative. Not every light mech chassis is meant to be pure combat oriented, many are scouts and Information Warfare platforms but those roles are completely non-existent in MWO because nothing supports them. Every mech can bring UAVs and every mech can bring artillery call-ins, so when a 75 ton direct fire/sniper heavy has the same support-kit as a 35 ton light what role does that light fill?

We need reasons to no use every single point of tonnage for weapons, if we had effective and useful alternatives then pure alpha-boating would no longer be the name of the game. Also by restricting UAV usage to a few chassis, you get another indirect buff to lights. Fewer UAV carriers on the field mean it becomes easier for a fast light to sneak around undetected, and adds tremendous importance to enemy UAV carriers as targets, which strike-lights could pick out and try to kill before they send up their drones.






The actual recon-drones of the BT universe weight 2-3 tons. The Path Track and Nap-Find. But again, I'll reitterate for a third time for those that refuse to actually read; It's not about realism, or lore accuracy for that matter, it's about fleshing out a pittfully underdeveloped mechanic that could be used to improve the game.



It is, but that doesn't mean we can't hope.. even if it is just a fools hope.

So light mechs would have to spend thousands of XP to unlock uavs in the new skill tree then have to losetonnage on top of that to equip them? Lol no thank you. Its just not worth it. The game is based solely around fighting mechs. Everyone needs to do damage. Your PSR score is determined by how much damage you do. There is no role for recon mechs. Who cares about scouting in QP? Both teams are actively trying to find each other to fight.

I'm not sacrificing combat effectiveness in an already disadvantaged weight class. The LRM boats can get their own locks.

[Quxudica]

Davers, on 06 December 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

So light mechs would have to spend thousands of XP to unlock uavs in the new skill tree then have to losetonnage on top of that to equip them? Lol no thank you. Its just not worth it. The game is based solely around fighting mechs. Everyone needs to do damage. Your PSR score is determined by how much damage you do. There is no role for recon mechs. Who cares about scouting in QP? Both teams are actively trying to find each other to fight.

I'm not sacrificing combat effectiveness in an already disadvantaged weight class. The LRM boats can get their own locks.

Sigh. So let's go through this again:
This >

Quote

"There is no role for recon mechs."

is a part of what helps cause
This >

Quote

"an already disadvantaged weight class"

So by changing
This >

Quote

"The game is based solely around fighting mechs"

to include
This >

Quote

"[a] role for recon mechs."

You come one step closer to fixing
This >

Quote

"an already disadvantaged weight class"

There is no one single magic bullet solution, but a series of alterations that need to be made that collectively pull the game away from the trap of "The game is based solely around [directly] fighting mechs". There need to be more roles on the battlefield than just "shoot things" in order for role warfare to truly exist and for the chassis not in-line with a pure offense meta to actually shine.

Quote

So light mechs would have to spend thousands of XP to unlock uavs in the new skill tree then have to losetonnage on top of that to equip them? Lol no thank you. Its just not worth it

There's also absolutely nothing about the proposed change meaning this absolutely has to follow, in fact it shouldn't. Recon and IW equipment (of any kind, not just UAVs) could be buffed to start with since there is actually some trade off and limitations on them, and the mechs able to carry them could further improve them just like a ballistic mech can further improve their ballistics. In other words instead of mech build types being restricted to: Energy, Ballistic or LRM, you now gain two new archetypes with Information Warfare and Recon. Which incidentally is what the original vision for MWO sold us on. The game has devolved into such a pure deathmatch it's hard for people to see it could be more than that.

[Dirus Nigh]

Jingseng, on 05 December 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Well, in TT and lore, coolant flush came from special support vehicles. In MWO, it's a magical fairy button.

I'd rather have capturable locations on a battle field with coolant, artillery, radar ping effects. But that generally requires a much longer battle and larger numbers to be worthwhile.

Alternatively, just restrict it to such a system in FW only; there isn't a lot of incentive to use consumables in QP anyway.

that said, i could see them adding the ability to use them in a skill tree. with options for number of uses per match and cooldown speed.

Battletech has a coolant pod that injects chilled coolant into the mech. It takes up tonnage and crit slots. It also explodes if critted. It's pretty stupid.

I would love it if PGI had the level designers make the maps make more sense for the context of the game. Have spawn locations for assault mode have a forward base with coolant, and ammunition trucks, an HQ truck, and maybe a mobile MASH unit. with no laser fens. Those are just stupid.

Have the "defending" teams start in mech hangers. Very much like MWLL did.

[WarHippy]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

That doesn't really address the problem, namely that what should be part of the kit for non-assault role mechs have been hijacked by a magic card system. Also their current implementation reduces the thought put into equipping them to virtually nil. There's no interesting trade offs, positive or negative, to incorporating them into a build. A Mech without consumables is strictly worse than one with them and every single mech can bring every single type.


To start with, the real life Predator Drone operated by the US weights between .5 to 1 tonne depending on it's load and I'd wager the UAV in MWO is actually bigger than that thing. That aside however it's not about realism, it's about fleshing out a lackluster mechanic to increase the variety and depth of gameplay.

I'm really not interested in your design thoughts with regard to consumables since I pretty much disagree completely with your take. I just want consumables to be usable, but I'm not sure your ideas are going to do that. That being said a Predator drone carries weapons and has a long flight window. UAV here are nothing remotely similar to a Predator drone and in no way shape or form would weigh anywhere near a half ton. At most it probably comes in at 50lbs.

Edited by WarHippy, 06 December 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

But the UAV is my favorite mech in the game.

Instead of getting rid of it, find a way for us to paint it.

How about if it could also skywrite messages? MW5, I'm lookin' at you.

[Quxudica]

WarHippy, on 06 December 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm really not interested in your design thoughts with regard to consumables since I pretty much disagree completely with your take. I just want consumables to be usable, but I'm not sure your ideas are going to do that. That being said a Predator drone carries weapons and has a long flight window. UAV here are nothing remotely similar to a Predator drone and in no way shape or form would weigh anywhere near a half ton. At most it probably comes in at 50lbs.

copy paste because reading is hard I guess:

Quote

The actual recon-drones of the BT universe weight 2-3 tons. The Path Track and Nap-Find. But again, I'll reitterate for a third time for those that refuse to actually read; It's not about realism, or lore accuracy for that matter, it's about fleshing out a pittfully underdeveloped mechanic that could be used to improve the game.

[NoiseCrypt]

Hunka Junk, on 06 December 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

But the UAV is my favorite mech in the game.

Instead of getting rid of it, find a way for us to paint it.

How about if it could also skywrite messages? MW5, I'm lookin' at you.

Decal shaped fireworks... yes please

[Jay Sovereign]

"let's give the game more depth / make it more tactical... and in doing so make it TOTALLY role-based and slow paced"

You can't make mechs equip a "UAV launcher" and UAVs because why would anyone waste that tonnage to launch only 1 UAV? You would have to give mechs multiple UAVs to be worth it but then it would be OP, so there goes that idea. Same thing goes for coolshots - If they cost slots and tonnage AND are likely to blow up my torso on a critical hit, you sure as hell let me equip multiples of them, but then again that would be OP.

A UAV or a coolshot or an airstrike are simply not worth it if they are taking up slots and tonnage (along with AMS, ECM, TAG, NARC, BAP, CAP) and if they do take up slots and tonnage you'd have to let us use way more than only 1 of them - and then it becomes OP.

The way consumables and modules work now (the way I see it as of now) are good for the players, PGI, and balance. No mech would waste their own weapon loadouts (how they defend themselves) for a UAV or Airstrike Launcher or Coolshots. They literally are supposed to be played like extra slots or magic cards. The only reason we can't use more of them is because it's OP
__________

And on a second note:
All the people saying "Radar Dep should go" honestly must be straight up LURM-Tards that have no idea how to use their own wits to incorporate enemy movement/tactics .. lack the attention span to try and follow an enemy that does not have a red dorito over its head, and ETC.

These people don't understand that without Radar Dep, say goodby to mechs such as lights being willing to even move around at all. Why scout, go behind enemy lines, drop a UAV, or etc., if it's instant lurm deaths from enemies that are not even moving / aiming / thinking?

Why? Because lurm-tards, that's why

"hold for locks pls"

Radar Dep is the one module that allows you to actually play the game as a light is supposed to.

Edited by The Entity, 20 December 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[WarHippy]

Quxudica, on 06 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

copy paste because reading is hard I guess:

Copy and past that all you want, but the UAV in MWO isn't the recon drone from BT or really a UAV in the traditional sense for that matter either. The mechanic is perfectly fine as is and I see no reason to fiddle with it. The UAV in MWO is the one consumable they actually did well to the point it is actually useful without being overpowered.

Your other changes do nothing for the other consumables other than to make them less likely to be used. Take strikes for an example. If you tie them to TAG and Command Console you greatly increase the requirements to make use of them only for them to be a waste of space to begin with. Sure, we could buff them so it is worth the effort to used them and mount them, but then you are going to have people bitching about them being too strong and that they don't want to be killed by anything that isn't another mech. That bitching is why they have pretty much no value now. You want to make them more difficult to use and harder to mount and that is somehow going to make them more interesting? I just don't see it happening even if conceptually it is an interesting idea. Organized play could probably make use of strikes designed in the way you describe, but outside of organized teams they would be nonexistent since you have no way of knowing who and what you are being paired up with in the match maker.

[Mystere]

Jingseng, on 05 December 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

Change f3 third person camera to UAV mode. You control a UAV, your mech just sits there. Max range from mech, one use per match. Deals salt damage to light mech pilots (even though it'd still probably be them using it)

Nah! That's too limited. Try this instead.

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 06 December 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

I never liked the fact that cool shot was implemented into this game, and especially as a consumable. In a game that tries to use heat management as a crucial part of game play, making a consumable to help bypass that part (even if it is short lived) seems rather hypocritical. I'd rather just see it permanently removed.

A single-use consumable is hardly something that "bypasses" a crucial part of the game. Let's not exaggerate please.

[Burke IV]

A toy drone with a camera that weighs so little you can carry around with you can hover for 15 mins... You could probably tape a laser pen to it and it would fly ok. Best leave realism out.