283 replies to this topic

[Alex Morgaine]

Placeholder huh? Well that's hopeful for balance then. Still want to put a quirky gauss on my wolverine.... Finally got a build theory crafted...

[Clownwarlord]

I am looking forward to the new skil tree. A chance for people to be more individualistic with their build because currently the only skill related individualism you get is the few module slots. Everything else is generically the same as the other mechs of the same chassis and same variant. This also might not change but has the chance to be able to at least. Why because the majority will still use the meta builds and then just tailor the skills to fit it. But if you do not like the meta build well not you have more of a chance to benefit your other builds.

[MischiefSC]

Except you can't. Over 80% of the unlocks are "required" just to get back the basics you already have, 20% of which are for absolutely worthless stuff you have to buy just to get what you do.

You'll be able to quirk up 1 or 2 weapons and maybe some structure. Full stop.

Every mech will be absolutely identical because the other options leave you with a mech literally inferior to anything in your mech bay that at least has basics unlocked today.

The new system as it stands now completely eliminates flexibility to do anything but make a mech either a) about like it is today or b ) significantly worse than it is today.

In return for 9.1 million cbills.

[Y E O N N E]

You know, the bottom line of the Skill Tree is that it's basically the same thing we currently have: a bunch of must-have buffs that don't do anything to specialize your 'Mech for and keep new players playing inferior machines for even longer.

It doesn't address balance. It doesn't address New Player Experience. It doesn't add depth.

[Clownwarlord]

MischiefSC, on 10 February 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

The new system as it stands now completely eliminates flexibility to do anything but make a mech either a) about like it is today or b ) significantly worse than it is today.

Prove it.

[Wintersdark]

Clownwarlord, on 10 February 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

Prove it.

What? You can do that right now. Pull up the PTS and build some mechs.

There are a couple trees that are mandatory (lower chassis and operations for example), then a weapon tree...

In practice, every mech ends up with virtually the same build. There's VERY little flexibility. Some Clan mechs end up better than they are on live due to basically gaining some defensive quirks that IS mechs already have, but on the other hand more heavily quirked IS mechs end up worse off.

The reality is that there's this massive set of skill trees, but if you experiment with builds it's very quickly obvious that you don't really have any choice at all.



Seriously, here, I don't care about the increased grind cost per mech. I'm ok with it. Not to say that I think it's good, but rather that I just don't care.

But in return for that, I want to get something.

And right now, I'm not getting anything. The skill tree is much flashier with way more entries, but in practice it's exactly the same as the current skill tree+modules, it just looks different. But there's still no real choice. The only difference between a mech I build and a mech MischeifSC builds will be which weapon trees we choose (based on which weapons we have), which simply reflects which modules we would have taken on live anyways.

It looks like a lot of choice, but it's really not.

[Clownwarlord]

Wintersdark, on 10 February 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

What? You can do that right now. Pull up the PTS and build some mechs.

There are a couple trees that are mandatory (lower chassis and operations for example), then a weapon tree...

In practice, every mech ends up with virtually the same build. There's VERY little flexibility. Some Clan mechs end up better than they are on live due to basically gaining some defensive quirks that IS mechs already have, but on the other hand more heavily quirked IS mechs end up worse off.

The reality is that there's this massive set of skill trees, but if you experiment with builds it's very quickly obvious that you don't really have any choice at all.



Seriously, here, I don't care about the increased grind cost per mech. I'm ok with it. Not to say that I think it's good, but rather that I just don't care.

But in return for that, I want to get something.

And right now, I'm not getting anything. The skill tree is much flashier with way more entries, but in practice it's exactly the same as the current skill tree+modules, it just looks different. But there's still no real choice. The only difference between a mech I build and a mech MischeifSC builds will be which weapon trees we choose (based on which weapons we have), which simply reflects which modules we would have taken on live anyways.

It looks like a lot of choice, but it's really not.

There is a difference between what I said and how you take it. What I said is you get the opportunity for being more individualistic, but if you choose to do what Mischief does then that is your choice. But if some one says screw the other charts lets just get weapons skilled up they have that option. Or if some one says I don't need no stinking weapons I need narc enhancement and all that other jazz to make me a better scout then they can. See individuals choosing what they want.

As for me I might not even get weapon skills ... but then again I do get 91 nodes. There is a lot I can do with 91 nodes (take about 91 matches to get 91 nodes).

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 10 February 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

There is a difference between what I said and how you take it. What I said is you get the opportunity for being more individualistic, but if you choose to do what Mischief does then that is your choice. But if some one says screw the other charts lets just get weapons skilled up they have that option. Or if some one says I don't need no stinking weapons I need narc enhancement and all that other jazz to make me a better scout then they can. See individuals choosing what they want.

Giving players choices that result in worse 'Mechs doesn't add anything into the game. Nobody cares if you managed to max out 5% cooldown across three weapon types because it doesn't make a lick of difference; you've got three weapon types and, therefore, bad synergy and low output. Doesn't matter if you've managed to max NARC, LRMs aren't good enough for it to matter.

[Clownwarlord]

Here is a pro for skill tree.

Cost less per mech (without changing modules)
If you figure it cost you 9.1 mil to get the 91 skill points right? Well for Radar Derp that is 6 mil, for 2 weapon modules that is 6 mil, and then if you want another weapon module you are looking at another 3 mil or one of these:

- Sensor Range 2 mil
- Advanced Zoom 2 mil
- Seismic Sensor 6 mil
- 360 Target Retention 6 mil
- Target Decay 6 mil
and there are others but these are just some.

So you are looking at 6 + 6 and on the lower side + 2 if you have 2 weapon mod slots to start with and it totals 14 mil. Or if you have 1 weapon mod slot then you are looking at 11 mil on the cheap side (not many mechs have just 1 majority have more slots because majority of the mech suck). That again is for mechs you never want to remove the module cost. On the higher side you are looking at something like this:

- Radar Derp 6 mil

- Weapon Module 3 mil
- Weapon Module 3 mil

- Advanced Seismic Sensor 6 mil

Total: 18 mil for just one mech.

[FireStoat]

And here's the big Con for the skill tree.

People with 50, or 100, or over 200 mechs followed the guidelines PGI gave them and purchased mechs in sets of three, then set out to Elite them, and then Mastered at least one of the three. So take a hard look at the hours they put into those mechs, the total bonuses they have in the existing trees, and then head over to the PTS and take a look at what is given to them after all of their bonuses are lost.

It's kind of really hideous. It's not out of line for the players who have been with the game and supported it the longest to simply desire to keep the mechs and their abilities intact, rather than be forced to grind more Exp just to get them back to where they were in performance ON TOP of paying Cbills to do it.

[Clownwarlord]

FireStoat, on 10 February 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

And here's the big Con for the skill tree.

People with 50, or 100, or over 200 mechs followed the guidelines PGI gave them and purchased mechs in sets of three, then set out to Elite them, and then Mastered at least one of the three. So take a hard look at the hours they put into those mechs, the total bonuses they have in the existing trees, and then head over to the PTS and take a look at what is given to them after all of their bonuses are lost.

It's kind of really hideous. It's not out of line for the players who have been with the game and supported it the longest to simply desire to keep the mechs and their abilities intact, rather than be forced to grind more Exp just to get them back to where they were in performance ON TOP of paying Cbills to do it.

Um I have over 200 mechs ... yes I have problem ... it is called module hunting. It is where I spend 30 minutes hunting down that module I need to complete my mech and I make everyone in my group wait on me till I find it.

Oh and master 1 of the three? no no no mastered all the variants.

Also grind? Have 14 or more in just radar derp ... so 6 mil * 14 = 84 mil in just that. I have over 250k xp on just my DDC not to mention other mechs with similar xp stock piled.

Edited by Clownwarlord, 10 February 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Clownwarlord, on 10 February 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

There is a difference between what I said and how you take it. What I said is you get the opportunity for being more individualistic, but if you choose to do what Mischief does then that is your choice. But if some one says screw the other charts lets just get weapons skilled up they have that option. Or if some one says I don't need no stinking weapons I need narc enhancement and all that other jazz to make me a better scout then they can. See individuals choosing what they want.

As for me I might not even get weapon skills ... but then again I do get 91 nodes. There is a lot I can do with 91 nodes (take about 91 matches to get 91 nodes).

This is the same as now. There are no new skills (except jump jets, but those skills do VERY little - a 12jj spider gains roughly 30m jump distance to its current ~400m). You can have no weapon modules now, you can have narc modules now.

That IS what mischief said. The skill tree is fundamentally the same as live, but costs way more unless you actually bought modules for every single mech.

Have you tried building mechs on the PTS? You can get so many skills that there's really no choice, which you pick are obvious. You can CHOOSE to make your mech objectively worse if you wish, but you can't really add capabilities you don't have right now.

No more choice than now.

[Clownwarlord]

Wintersdark, on 10 February 2017 - 10:49 PM, said:

This is the same as now. There are no new skills (except jump jets, but those skills do VERY little - a 12jj spider gains roughly 30m jump distance to its current ~400m). You can have no weapon modules now, you can have narc modules now.

That IS what mischief said. The skill tree is fundamentally the same as live, but costs way more unless you actually bought modules for every single mech.

Have you tried building mechs on the PTS? You can get so many skills that there's really no choice, which you pick are obvious. You can CHOOSE to make your mech objectively worse if you wish, but you can't really add capabilities you don't have right now.

No more choice than now.

Other than they said that they did not get rid of all the quirks ... and so with the skill tree + quirks that are still there + base line stats = you did get something new (skill tree)

[MischiefSC]

So you have 14 Radar derp but 200 mechs.

IS that because you only had 14 that needed Derp and so never bothered for the rest or is it because buying Derp for 200 mechs would be an incredibly stupid grind?

If your "many choices" means making a bunch of bad mechs, which you are literally spending g 9 million each to make bad, then, well, good for you I guess? No, I mean good for everyone else who will get free money from face stomping you because you're going to intentionally grind and spend cbills to make a mech flat out inferior.

You can do that now. You have "the choice" to put an XL200, no armor and 1mg on an Atlas and still launch into a match. That's amazing customization! Nobody every thought of making something like that!

Because it's just bad. It does nothing, adds nothing to the game except act like a badly designed AI enemy to piñata some loot out of.

I want the skill tree to work - I like the concept. The current execution however is just adding a 9 million grind to each mech you own just to get something pretty much like you have now.

Make JJ perks worthwhile. Make the otherwise worthless quirks 'free' when you unlock the one under them, make better quirks in each branch that when selected stop you from going above a certain tier in another - i.e. give Raven 3L ECM range, Radar Derp and Seismic range x3 quirks but taking them keeps you from getting NARC/TAG health/range/duration x3 quirks or top tier Structure and such quirks.

Get what I mean? Make the choices worth it. I'm all for having to make hard choices but this doesn't do that. It gives you "rebuild what you have now but with top performing IS mechs taking a dump and top tier Clan mechs getting a big buff" and option 2, which is "make something flat out inferior to what you currently already have for an extra 9 million".

I don't want them to abandon it, I don't want them to give up. I want the prices brought down, especially to respec, and I want the skill trees made relevant and distinct and the balance between the choices to be a real choice between good ideas and not çrebuild what we already have but with worse IS/Clan balance" and "make something even derpier than current full power derping".

[Clownwarlord]

I had 14 because I have 3 drop decks for FW. so there is 12 mechs right there and then 1 for scout mode which leaves 1 for me to use on grinding a mech. If I had the forth drop deck opened it would mean I need 18 radar derps. On top of all that I would need weapon modules for all those mechs and hopefully they all are mastered if not at least elited, and if they are mastered then I need a lot more seismic sensors. So cheaper with new skill system than old system.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 February 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

Doesn't matter if you've managed to max NARC, LRMs aren't good enough for it to matter.

Oh, is that why I'm seeing all time record high's in my LRM boats? Because LRM's don't matter? I'm convinced that those of us at the top, that keep plugging our ears and going "LA LA LA LRMS SUCK LALALA" simply open up the ability for people like me to make ******* BANK.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Clownwarlord, on 10 February 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

Here is a pro for skill tree.

Cost less per mech (without changing modules)
If you figure it cost you 9.1 mil to get the 91 skill points right? Well for Radar Derp that is 6 mil, for 2 weapon modules that is 6 mil, and then if you want another weapon module you are looking at another 3 mil or one of these:

- Sensor Range 2 mil
- Advanced Zoom 2 mil
- Seismic Sensor 6 mil
- 360 Target Retention 6 mil
- Target Decay 6 mil
and there are others but these are just some.

So you are looking at 6 + 6 and on the lower side + 2 if you have 2 weapon mod slots to start with and it totals 14 mil. Or if you have 1 weapon mod slot then you are looking at 11 mil on the cheap side (not many mechs have just 1 majority have more slots because majority of the mech suck). That again is for mechs you never want to remove the module cost. On the higher side you are looking at something like this:

- Radar Derp 6 mil

- Weapon Module 3 mil
- Weapon Module 3 mil

- Advanced Seismic Sensor 6 mil

Total: 18 mil for just one mech.

I wish people would stop using that argument. It doesn't work, and here's why:

Module costs are not required to make a 'Mech viable. Elite skill tier is. Modules presently cost both XP and cbills- XP for unlock, cbills for purchase. Elite skill tier costs XP, but does not have a cbill cost.

Right now, I could drop in a Hunchback that has its elite tier skills and expect it to not suck, even if it had no modules loaded. I would not have to invest any cbills beyond the cost of the chassis and equipment in order to make that 'Mech worth driving against other T2-T1 players. It would not be optimized, but it would be viable.

Yes, under the old system, a full load of modules will run several times the price of the 'Mech- AC20 range+cooldown, seismic, derp, etc- but those costs are optional, and can be spread across multiple 'Mechs because I'm not going to be using them all simultaneously and therefore don't need modules for every single one. I can use those AC20 mods in my other big gun 'Mechs; I can use the seismic and derp in bloody everything. Instead of 18m for one 'Mech, it's 18m spread across every 'Mech which can use those modules.

The PTS version of skill tree would spread those module costs into the heat cap, cool run, speed tweak, and other skills that are necessary to level the playing field, forcing players to invest several million cbills in addition to all that XP. That is before unlocking the module abilities, such as radar dep and seismic. Now take the same HBK- if I want to achieve the same level of mobility and cooling as it has under the old skill system, I have to dump ~6-7m cbills in addition to the XP cost (which is also much higher). That effectively doubles the price of the chassis and equipment, because I will be playing at a serious disadvantage if I don't have at least my cooling and mobility upgraded. Armor, too, since that's a thing now- otherwise I'm dead one alpha sooner than every other 50-tonner on the field, and that's most definitely not a position I want to be in against T1/T2 guys who absolutely will land that alpha (it's a horrible place to leave new players, too).

It's a double whammy: not only would I have to pay cbills where it was not necessary to before, now I need to pay for every single 'Mech instead of buying a set of modules to swap around. 9.1m total for full optimization... for me, that works out to more than one billion cbills. Billion. With a "B." Compared to the ~50 million I presently have invested in modules, which covers all of my 'Mechs for module needs. That's not a one-for-one transition, it's an increase of two orders of magnitude. Even if I eschew weapon skills and things like seismic and derp, it's still more than 600 million cbills plus ~90k XP just to bring everything up to the equivalent of elite skill tier, which is currently just an XP investment.

It's not even remotely feasible to make that jump.

And don't say "but you only need one variant." That's not the bloody point. Players should not have to sell off two thirds of their existing 'Mechs in order to even out the grind on the remainder. Nevermind the whole issue with increased grind costs devaluing MC and 'Mech pack purchases... that's a whole other can of worms.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 11 February 2017 - 09:25 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 11 February 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

Oh, is that why I'm seeing all time record high's in my LRM boats? Because LRM's don't matter? I'm convinced that those of us at the top, that keep plugging our ears and going "LA LA LA LRMS SUCK LALALA" simply open up the ability for people like me to make ******* BANK.

Because you are playing against a hodge-podge of skillsets.

You take LRMs to Leagues and you will get creamed. The big deal is flight time; they simply take too long to reach the target relative to other weapons at any range.

[Wintersdark]

Clownwarlord, on 10 February 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

Other than they said that they did not get rid of all the quirks ... and so with the skill tree + quirks that are still there + base line stats = you did get something new (skill tree)

Yes, some really bad IS mechs kept some of their quirks. But they're quirked up now; so you add all the skills we have and the modules they have and they're the same, they didn't get anything new.

To be sure, some mechs did get new stuff - Clam mechs gain structural quirks they didn't have before, while IS has to basically buy back their old structure quirks (in cases where they didn't keep their quirks); but this isn't good, it's BAD. That quirk advantage existed for a reason.

But in practice, it's a LOT of clicking, a lot of spending, and a HUGE list of "quirk bonuses/enhancements"....


...that just brings mechs back to roughly where they are right now with weapon and mech modules and the current skills. There's some balance changes, to be sure, because some mechs ended up fairing better or worse depending on how many quirks they kept, but that's separate from the issue here.

There's no real choice. It's not even "well, there's this highly optimized build, but there's lots of other perfectly workable builds." There's the painfully obvious choices, and that accounts for virtually all of your skill points, then a few generally junky or literally useless skills left.

About the only choice anyone is going to make is whether they want seismic/radar derp or a bit more structure/armor. That's not interesting in the slightest.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I don't think some people understand the concept of you quirking what you want. That's what the skill tree comes down to. Its no different from skyrims perk tree.