46 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

So im a little concerned by the new skill trees and the effect its going to have on boating weapons.

Its going to be advantageous to take mechs that only use one type of weapon so you can
minimize the amount of points spent in the skill tree in the weapon categories. Mixed loadout mechs are going to be worse than ever once this skill tree goes live.

Also mechs that have more weapons of one type are going to be favored over mechs that have
less weapons of one type. A mech with 4 autocannons will get twice the bonus from AC skills as a mech with only 2 autocannons. So mechs with only 1-2 autocannons will fall out of favor.


The way I see it two things need to change:

1) skill tree needs to make allowances for mixed loadout mechs. the easiest way to do this is probably to let mixed loadout mechs keep some of their existing weapon quirks.

2) bonuses from the skill trees need to be divided by the number of weapons of that type the mech takes. that way you always get the same total bonus regardless of whether you have 4 autocannons or 2 autocannons. For example, an atlas with a single AC20 should get the same total bonus from putting points into autocannon skill that a jagermech with four autocannon 5s gets.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2016 - 07:27 PM.

[El Bandito]

Some people think by increasing XP requirement substantially the longer you go into the tree, can help curb boating, but that's not gonna work in the long run. Sooner or later I will be maxing out the boated weapon. I suppose people in mixed builds will make one particular weapon their primary and focus on that one the most. As much as I am keeping my hopes low, variant based skill tree values would pleasantly surprise me.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 December 2016 - 07:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

2) bonuses from the skill trees need to be divided by the number of weapons of that type the mech takes. that way you always get the same total bonus regardless of whether you have 4 autocannons or 2 autocannons. For example, an atlas with a single AC20 should get the same total bonus from putting points into autocannon skill that a jagermech with three or four autocannon 5s gets.

That just benefits big guns over small guns that are so weak that they have to be boated to be useful (Small Laser, SRM2, etc.).

Also, the way you're setting it up is that you're not giving the same total bonus to all loadouts. You're giving the largest bonus to the lowest number of guns and the smallest bonus to the greatest number of guns.

For example, the screenies showed AC cooldown maxing out at 12.5%. So, that Atlas with 1 AC/20 would get the full 12.5%. Meanwhile, that Jager with 4 AC/5's would get only 3.125% cooldown bonus.

12.5% is a crapton better than 3.125%.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Interesting . . .

How exactly would that work?

Autocannon Cooldown 5% equals a 5% cooldown reduction for one AC-20 but only 1% cooldown reduction for each of five AC-5's?

How would the range node work? What happens if you have only three AC's? Starting to sound like an unwieldy mess at that point.

[Khobai]

Quote

That just benefits big guns over small guns that are so weak that they have to be boated to be useful (Small Laser, SRM2, etc.).

um thats exactly how MWO should work. weaker guns should have to be boated to be useful. while bigger guns are useful on their own.

that justifies the huge tonnage and crit slot costs of the bigger guns.

Quote

Autocannon Cooldown 5% equals a 5% cooldown reduction for one AC-20 but only 1% cooldown reduction for each of five AC-5's?

If you have a 20% bonus and 4 autocannons, each autocannon would get a 5% bonus. But if you only had 1 autocannon it would get a 20% bonus. So the total bonus is the same regardless of how many autocannons you have.

In other words the value of a skill point in an AC skill wouldnt vary from mech to mech, it would always be worth the same for all mechs. it makes it so mechs with 4 autocannon slots arnt strictly superior to mechs with only 1-2 autocannon slots.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

um thats exactly how battletech should work. weaker guns have to be boated to be useful. while bigger guns are useful on their own.

They already do that with the base values. You're just adding quirks to the base values of the biggest guns while giving absolutely nothing to the weakest guns. The rich get richer and the poor stay dirt goddamn poor.

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

If you have a 20% bonus and 4 autocannons, each autocannon would get a 5% bonus. But if you only had 1 autocannon it would get a 20% bonus.

So the total bonus is the same regardless of how many autocannons you have.

5% isn't the same total bonus as 20% you dingbat. 5% is impossible to notice in gameplay but 20% makes a massive difference.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2016 - 07:33 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

um thats exactly how MWO should work. weaker guns should have to be boated to be useful. while bigger guns are useful on their own.

that justifies the huge tonnage and crit slot costs of the bigger guns.



If you have a 20% bonus and 4 autocannons, each autocannon would get a 5% bonus. But if you only had 1 autocannon it would get a 20% bonus.

So the total bonus is the same regardless of how many autocannons you have.

Is that fair considering the sheer tonnage cost of running four AC-5's (40 tons) versus one AC-20 (14 tons)?

You also ignored the problem of the range nodes and weapon totals that don't divide evenly into the node percentages.

[Khobai]

Quote

They already do that with the base values. You're just adding quirks to the base values of the biggest guns while giving absolutely nothing to the weakest guns. The rich get richer and the poor stay dirt goddamn poor.

Except the skill bonuses completely change that base value balance and highly favor having multiple smaller autocannons over 1 large autocannon.

Quote

5% isn't the same total bonus as 20% you dingbat. 5% is impossible to notice in gameplay but 20% makes a massive difference.

5% distributed among 4 weapons is more or less the same as 20% for 1 weapon. As far as cooldown goes at least.

Yes its not exactly the same, but its still preferable to do that than to invalidate all mechs with only 1-2 autocannon slots while mechs with 4+ autocannon slots become dominant.

Quote

Is that fair considering the sheer tonnage cost of running four AC-5's (40 tons) versus one AC-20 (14 tons)?

You also ignored the problem of the range nodes and weapon totals that don't divide evenly into the node percentages.

Well then instead of dividing by the number of autocannons you can divide by the tonnage. And distribute it based on tonnage.

The specifics arnt whats important. The point is something has to be done so mechs that can boat multiple weapons of the same type dont completely dominate the game.

youve missed the entire point as usual by getting hung up on unimportant specifics. Its not important how the distribution occurs. Its just important that theres some kindve distribution happening so that mechs with more hardpoints arnt strictly better than mechs with less hardpoints.

Otherwise were gonna end up with a ton of mechs becoming obsolete simply because they cant boat a lot of the same weapon. Mechs with only 2 autocannons will become obsolete because mechs with 4 autocannons will get twice the bonus from skill points.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2016 - 07:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Except the skill bonuses completely change that base value balance and highly favor having multiple smaller autocannons over 1 large autocannon.

Not really. If you do the maths, the guns with the slowest cooldowns get the highest overall reduction from percentage-based quirks than guns that have faster default cooldowns.

In general, the highest base values get the most benefit from percentage (multiplicative) quirks. The ER Large Laser gets a lot more out of 10% energy range than a Small Laser.

Maths!
*12.5% max Skill Tree quirk

AC/20: 4.00 default cooldown
*4.00 - (4.00 * 0.125) = 3.50
0.5 seconds cooldown reduction

AC/5: 1.66 default cooldown
*1.66 - (1.66 * 0.125) = 1.45
0.21 seconds cooldown reduction

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

5% distributed among 4 weapons is more or less the same as 20% for 1 weapon.

It's less. A lot less. The only quirk that has any kind of impact at 5% is reduced energy heat. Everything else is just a placebo at that level.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

The specifics arnt whats important. The point is something has to be done so mechs that can boat multiple weapons of the same type dont completely dominate the game.

youve missed the entire point as usual by getting hung up on unimportant specifics.

The currently leaked skill tree values for weapons max out at just 12.5%, which is only 0.5% better than existing modules. Not much is going to change.

Specifics are pretty important because they're needed for actually accomplishing something in the game. Right now you're in dream land or something where you expect to solve an issue by using feels alone.

[Cato Phoenix]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Otherwise were gonna end up with a ton of mechs becoming obsolete simply because they cant boat a lot of the same weapon. Mechs with only 2 autocannons will become obsolete because mechs with 4 autocannons will get twice the bonus from skill points.

Uh...I'm not sure where this is becoming an issue. That's how things currently are. A Black Widow theoretically derives benefit to all of it's autocannons from its quirks, but that's not saying it derives -more- benefits to ballistics than a WHM-6R. (assuming they had equal quirks). It might be more useful situationally, but you don't get a bigger benefit just from having more guns.

The point of mixed-builds being at a disadvantage for needing to use more nodes I think is valid. You would derive more optimization from boating.

[Khobai]

Quote

Uh...I'm not sure where this is becoming an issue. That's how things currently are

and the way things currently arnt isnt working obviously which is why theyre redoing to whole skill system

but the same problems are still going to exist so it fixes nothing

they still need to prevent mixed loadout mechs from becoming entirely obsolete.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2016 - 11:53 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 06 December 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

The currently leaked skill tree values for weapons max out at just 12.5%, which is only 0.5% better than existing modules. Not much is going to change.

Currently it is 12% cooldown and 10% range with modules. Post patch it might become 12.5% cooldown + 12.5% range + 12.5% heat reduction. I know my Clan ERPPC Heavies are gonna love that.

It gets even better for the KDK-3. Previously it could only fit 12% cooldown for CUAC10s and CUAC5s in the weapon module slots, but thanks to PGI condensing all UAC skills into one tree it can soon have 12.5% cooldown, velocity, range, and some reduced jam chance for both UACs!

Edited by El Bandito, 07 December 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

this will cause one major problem - how do you balance the quirks? do you balance it based on the performance of a single weapon (e.g. one single uac20)? or do you balance it based on an assumption that players are gonna boat (6xac2)?

if you balance it for the former, boaters using weapons that are fun, but aren't over-the-top effective are going to lose a fun mech build.

and if you balance it for the latter, someone is going to find a way to break the game with a -60% cd uac20 with 8 tons of ammo kinda deal. or imagine a clan mech with a single erll that can suddenly start dealing real pain to light mechs at 2km+ away because he spec-ed into weapon range. single erppc summoners with a t7 computer that can suddenly rapid-fire erppc shots at ridiculous ranges like 1.5km because he spec-ed into weapon range and cd.

the game would be broken beyond belief.

[Vellron2005]

It is logical to me that people who want to max-upgrade their boated weapons will focus on that particular weapon, while those who wish to run mixed builds will instead focus not on weapons, but on infotech and overall toughness / survivability.

As a guy who is often playing "jack of all traits, master of none", I know how much versatility can be an asset.. One trick ponies are great in their "trick", but it's all relative.. Your +12% to AC range can mean very little if you can't see me, and I'm LURMing you from behind a rock, 600 meters away..

I hope they broaden the skill tree itself, to include and support all type of builds, not just boating but mixed builds as well..

[Galenit]

FupDup, on 06 December 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

Not really. If you do the maths, the guns with the slowest cooldowns get the highest overall reduction from percentage-based quirks than guns that have faster default cooldowns.

Maths!
*12.5% max Skill Tree quirk

AC/20: 4.00 default cooldown
*4.00 - (4.00 * 0.125) = 3.50
0.5 seconds cooldown reduction

AC/5: 1.66 default cooldown
*1.66 - (1.66 * 0.125) = 1.45
0.21 seconds cooldown reduction

Its sure that a slow weapon gets more cooldown reduction,
but dps/damage increase is what matters:

AC20: 5 to 5.7 dps thats around 14% more dps
AC5: 3 to 3.45 dps thats around 15% more dps

Both modules give nearly the same benefit, around 15% more dps.


Boating 4 AC5 gives you that advantage for that 4 weapons,
if you take an ac20 and 3 lasers, you will get the advantage for the ac20, but you need another node for the lasers, in this case the ac20 node is only halve as valuable then the ac5 node for the boat,
because you need a second node to make the laser also take that 15% damage increase* to match the 4xAC5 dps increase.

If you would mix 3 different weapons, each of the weapon nodes would only have 1/3 of its valuable against a single-weapon-boat.


In the end a modifier for boating would help in balancing boating and mixed builds.

* I missed that i talk about pig. Hope that all cooldownnodes will give the same dps increase.

Edited by Galenit, 07 December 2016 - 03:33 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

I share the favoring of boating concern, but I think any of the two solutions will solve it.

1. Will work for some mech variants, but it will not do anything for boated builds vs mixed builds on the same mech variant. The boating build will always be favored so something else is needed.

2. This is just wrong, giving a flat % gain is not a problem. 4 guns have invested more tonnage than 2 guns. If you fix 1., then 2. will not be a problem because mixed builds are not at an disadvantage anymore.... so just focus on helping out mixed builds in the skill tree system.

[Bandilly]

FupDup, on 06 December 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

The currently leaked skill tree values for weapons max out at just 12.5%, which is only 0.5% better than existing modules. Not much is going to change.

Except that mechs currently run at 17% cool down from skills (5%) and modules (12%), so 12.5% is a bit of a nerf. Considering for ED they wanted modules down to 5% the nerf is not unexpected.

[Duke Nedo]

FupDup, on 06 December 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

The currently leaked skill tree values for weapons max out at just 12.5%, which is only 0.5% better than existing modules. Not much is going to change.

The thing that will be different will be that in order to reach the current CD module bonus a boat will need to spend 5 SP, while a mixed loadout will have to spend 10 or 15 SP to achieve the same effect on his over all DPS (assuming the mech in question would have 2 weapon module slots in the current system). The boat can now proceed to use his spare 5 or 10 SP on armor, structure, speed, heat management, agility skills or whatever, and that's a pretty significant advantage. In the old system, the boat could only use this extra capacity on the range module so the difference was there but less important. In the new system, this spills over on more important buffs of your choice.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

The only idea I have for the tree not to promote boating too much (I don't believe the tree itself could anyhow discourage boating) is generalising weapon skills as much as it is possible.

For example: Range and cooldown skills should benefit ALL weapons. This way if you have a mixed loadout you can at least invest in range and cooldown and have it benefitting all your guns, just like a boat would have one skill benefitting all its weapons. Machinegun ROF could rise with cooldown skills.
That's for a good start.

Problem is with unique weapon aspects. Only uacs jam, only srms and lbx have spread, there's probably a number of other weapon features I don't remember at the moment. Joining such features into joint skill nodes would be a bit problematic. Still, there could be sth like "weapon maintenance" skill that would decrease jam chance AND decrease spread of srms and lbx at the same time...

EDIT: still, that "weapon maintenance" would ideally need to give some benefits to other weapons... you can drop velocity on top of that? But then this skill would benefit srms, uacs and lbx twice... convoluted I know.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 07 December 2016 - 03:45 AM.