32 replies to this topic

[McMurl]

So ive been trying to elite out my Vindis and my Victors, and holy god is it painful. Vindi is atleast semi usable, but forget about the victor. Its totally unusable, with quirks that make no sense (biggest structure buffs are in the LEGS...? and nothing at all in the arms, with tiny ST structure buffs?) Now its pointless to attempt to fix the mech with quirks because the current iteration of quirks will be leaving in 3 months time.

So my question is, how will the new system benefit these trash mechs, along with other garbage mechs? IMO a 'master' level skill would be doubling the ammo per ton for the victor. This will allow it to fit a bit more so that it can actually be the glass cannon its clearly designed to be (even tho in lore it was definitely not a glass cannon) Other things like these would be great. Otherwise these mechs, ESPECIALLY the victor will remain extinct. Other mechs that come to mind would be the commando, kintaro, treb and the awesome. These mechs need UNIQUE skills, that would be drastically different than anything else. Some ideas could be no minimum LRM range, unique for IS, for the awesome and more so the vindi, double PPC crit chances. There needs to be radically unique skills that make these mechs useful.

[kuma8877]

Russ addressed this recently (the twitters), a lot of the balance work that has been done, isn't pointless and won't disappear with the new tree.
[color=#292F33]
Russ Bullockruss_bullock 23h23 hours ago

Also we are not forgetting that some Chassis need baseline help like say my Dragon. We have a plan for this in working with the base stats.
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[cazidin]

kuma8877, on 07 December 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

Russ addressed this recently (the twitters), a lot of the balance work that has been done, isn't pointless and won't disappear with the new tree.

Russ Bullockruss_bullock 23h23 hours ago

Also we are not forgetting that some Chassis need baseline help like say my Dragon. We have a plan for this in working with the base stats.

I REALLY don't trust when Russ says he has a plan for the Dragon, the Victor or the Vindicator.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 07 December 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

I REALLY don't trust when Russ says he has a plan for the Dragon, the Victor or the Vindicator.

Past experience shows that when PGI says they're going to help the "dog" mechs, they either don't do anything or do something that is too small to make a difference.

I'll only believe it when I see it.

[Bud Crue]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Past experience shows that when PGI says they're going to help the "dog" mechs, they either don't do anything or do something that is too small to make a difference.

I'll only believe it when I see it.

Yep.

I mean if the Victor has only been buffed in the last YEAR by 10 extra structure in its side torsos and last month 10% agility quirks, what makes anyone think that under the new system PGI is going to suddenly think "hey maybe the Victor needs some serious help"? If they haven't figured it out yet, I don't expect that they ever will. Crap mechs will still be crap under the new system just like the old.

[50 50]

With the removal of quirks from the mechs they should be brought back to a closer level as the quirks were a big part of that discrepancy. The only difference left then becomes hard point types, amount and positions and maybe engine rating min/max. So, you should no longer have those odd bonuses in locations that make no sense.

The skill tree suggests that they will have a blanket effect and not apply to particular components (such as arms or legs).
It is my hope that there will be some unique skill options to select on the different chassis to give them an interesting point of difference.

But we have no information to base anything on at the moment so.... it's all speculation and assumption.

[adamts01]

50 50, on 07 December 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

With the removal of quirks from the mechs they should be brought back to a closer level as the quirks were a big part of that discrepancy. The only difference left then becomes hard point types, amount and positions and maybe engine rating min/max. So, you should no longer have those odd bonuses in locations that make no sense.

I don't agree with this. The most powerful mechs have been the ones able to boat the most powerful weapons with zero quirks: Jenners, Firestarters, Timberwolves, Stormcrows, Kodiaks.... There are a few examples where you're right (Blackjack, Wubberine, Thunderbolt..) but those anomalies didn't last. It's 90% about hardpoints.

[kuma8877]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Past experience shows that when PGI says they're going to help the "dog" mechs, they either don't do anything or do something that is too small to make a difference.

I'll only believe it when I see it.

If they roll forward the old structure/armor/turn rate etc quirks and just include that as the new baseline to each chassis they can continue to tweak those stats from the back end for balance and you have the oppurtunity to offensively buff the mech to your liking in the new skill tree.

And we still have the upcoming balance pass.

Edited by kuma8877, 07 December 2016 - 07:47 PM.

[Sagamore]

The other prediction that I've seen tossed around is that under performing mechs will have more skill points to assign, allowing us to effectively give extra quirks to under performers. I guess we'll have to wait and see!

[Tibbnak]

Vindicator with jumpjet and shock absorbance enhancements from skill tree, hill climb, ppc and energy related enhancements like velocity and cooldown and heat, and radar derp.

[50 50]

adamts01, on 07 December 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

I don't agree with this. The most powerful mechs have been the ones able to boat the most powerful weapons with zero quirks: Jenners, Firestarters, Timberwolves, Stormcrows, Kodiaks.... There are a few examples where you're right (Blackjack, Wubberine, Thunderbolt..) but those anomalies didn't last. It's 90% about hardpoints.

Which was the second part of that paragraph.
The point I was trying to make was that if there are no quirks on the mechs then an individual weapon on one mech is no different to that same weapon on another mech. At that level things are even.
Yes, there are mechs that have more hard points or hardpoints in locations that seem more advantageous therefore giving them an edge over another mech. Wasn't that the reason from bringing in the quirks? To try and make the mechs equal based on hardpoints or lack of or positioning of?

It may be simpler with the skill tree system to either limit some of the skill levels, remove options or have unique options based on the design and intent of the mech. Further define it's role by denying the ability to shore up it's weak points by taking away those options. This is something that can't be done with the the current skill tree.

So to discuss this a bit further:
Hunchback vs Enforcer vs Centurion vs Crab vs Trebuchet
All 50 tons.
Right at the moment, which one of these would be the clearly superior mech and why?

[Duke Nedo]

The easiest starting point would simply be to keep all quirks as they are and only have the skill tree replace modules and the old skills. That's basically what the raw version was that they flashed on MechCon, 12.5% max weapon buff (compare range and cd modules 12%, cd skill: 5%, agility/speed tweak skills etc). These skills basically replace the old skills + modules. Quirks were not really part of it (who cares about 12.5% velocity???) except for structure and armor trees.

Just leaving quirks as they are, remove modules and add the new skill tree capped at 12.5% and probably remove the armor/structure tree, then we have a starting point that's at least not broken.

The bad mechs currently have like 47% cooldown, up to 50% structure, up to 50% velocity etc, and in most cases that's not enough! I have a hard time seeing that the new skill tree won't increase the gap between good and bad mechs.

[wolf74]

They Could give a higher skill point Cap to mech that are "Underperforming)

I listed my thoughts on that here https://mwomercs.com...-line-thoughts/

[Y E O N N E]

wolf74, on 08 December 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

They Could give a higher skill point Cap to mech that are "Underperforming)

I listed my thoughts on that here https://mwomercs.com...-line-thoughts/

Caveat is that some 'Mechs might need more of a buff in certain areas than the stuff in the skill tree can support.

[Duke Nedo]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 December 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Caveat is that some 'Mechs might need more of a buff in certain areas than the stuff in the skill tree can support.

This, plus that if you just add to the skill point cap, these mechs will require more grinding to ace out, and when you start out to grind them they will be completely horrible compared to the good mechs that start out in a much better spot. I guess that's why Russ tweeted that they are upping the base stats for the weak mechs, i.e. putting quirks right back in. Probably not a bad call, it's a huge undertaking to tweak the skill trees of every single variant that need quirks, and the probability of breaking balance is near 1.

[50 50]

That was a pretty poor example actually, so to respect the OPs initial point re the Victor....

Victor vs Zeus vs Awesome.
All 80 tons.

Perhaps easiest to just compare the champion versions and simplify it right down to the base - no quirks, no modules and no skills.

Very similar loadouts.
Engine min/max very similar though starting engine differs a bit.
More lasers points on the Awesome and a slightly better torso twist range.
Ballistics and Jump Jets for the Victor.
All three have 3 missile points.

Which is the best and why?

wolf74, on 08 December 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

They Could give a higher skill point Cap to mech that are "Underperforming)

I listed my thoughts on that here https://mwomercs.com...-line-thoughts/

I don't think more skill points is a great idea for the reasons Duke states, ie. more XP required to get them all.
I think it also creates more of a power creep and puts us back to where we are now.

Yeonne Greene, on 08 December 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Caveat is that some 'Mechs might need more of a buff in certain areas than the stuff in the skill tree can support.

The idea I would like to explore at the moment is denying certain mechs access to a tree. It's something we have not had the ability to do under the current system and hence trying to identify the reasons why some mechs are used over others.

Based on the pure stats in Smurfy's on the three mechs above I would say they are on par with each other. But I don't use the mechs so I'd like to get everyone else's reasoning on them.

[El Bandito]

50 50, on 08 December 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:

That was a pretty poor example actually, so to respect the OPs initial point re the Victor....

Victor vs Zeus vs Awesome.
All 80 tons.

Perhaps easiest to just compare the champion versions and simplify it right down to the base - no quirks, no modules and no skills.

Very similar loadouts.
Engine min/max very similar though starting engine differs a bit.
More lasers points on the Awesome and a slightly better torso twist range.
Ballistics and Jump Jets for the Victor.
All three have 3 missile points.

Which is the best and why?

Awesome-9M is slightly better than Victor-9S. It has more energy points and bigger launchers so it can actually do a lot of damage. Victor's JJs don't really do much besides hovering.

*edit* Oops, I forgot that Awesome's missiles are in the CT. Which makes it pretty sucky.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 December 2016 - 02:31 AM.

[adamts01]

Do we know if there's an option to get real jump jets on this new skill tree?

[Duke Nedo]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

Awesome-9M is slightly better than Victor-9S. It has more energy points and bigger launchers so it can actually do a lot of damage. Victor's JJs don't really do much besides hovering.

*edit* Oops, I forgot that Awesome's missiles are in the CT. Which makes it pretty sucky.

I have not played my Zeus' after the rescale, but I kind of liked them before. They were compact and tanky and the ZEU-9S was a solid performer with a large XL, 3x LPL+3x MPL. Have to try it again and see if it still works after the inflation accident.

That said, I'd rank them: ZEU-9S > ZEU-5S/6S > AWS-9M > AWS-8Q/8R > ZEU-6T/9S2 > VTR-9S/9K/9B > AWS-8V/8T

[Kaeb Odellas]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Past experience shows that when PGI says they're going to help the "dog" mechs, they either don't do anything or do something that is too small to make a difference.

I'll only believe it when I see it.

Sometimes they go all out. The Thunderbolt, Black Knight, Dragon 1N AC5 minigun, and Blackjack structure quirks come to mind. Sure they got rolled back eventually, but those sure were fun while they lasted. Delicious clanner tears...