95 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

why you want to dampen boating?

[Gentleman Reaper]

Davegt27, on 07 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

why you want to dampen boating?

Why are you assuming this would dampen boating? If this system or something similar isn't implemented before it goes live, then all mixed builds will end up faring worse than they already are in the live client, and mechs like the 4UAC10 Kodiak will have even more of an advantage. Boating has been in need of damping of a LOOONG time now.

[Lostdragon]

Gentleman Reaper, on 07 December 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Yes, it is no different, and one of the reasons why boating is so prevalent in the live client. Boats can maximize their effectiveness with a duration/velocity, cooldown and range module for their only weapon type, while mixed builds have to sacrifice maxing out a single weapon's effectiveness so that their other weapons get some kind of buff.

I don't see you guys complaining about mechs with mixed hardpoints having more powerful quirks than mechs with all Ballistic or Energy hardpoints, this is no different here. To those saying that a diminished skill would be less effective with boats, think of it like this, would you rather have a 5% cooldown bonus for all boated weapons (say 6 or 8 of them) or would you rather have only a single of those weapons have a 15% cooldown? This is what mixed builds deal with, and why it's ridiculous to say that it's unfair for boats.

So just give those mechs that need them a couple of bonus skills for free to help make up for quirks being removed. There is no need to make the whole system more convoluted than ghost heat.

[Davegt27]

I never had a problem with KDK-3s

what is the problem anyways

[Gentleman Reaper]

Lostdragon, on 07 December 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

So just give those mechs that need them a couple of bonus skills for free to help make up for quirks being removed. There is no need to make the whole system more convoluted than ghost heat.

Some mechs will still have quirks after the new skill tree comes, although we don't know if it'll be only durability and mobility quirks or weapon quirks as well. The problem with the latter is than it forces you to go with specific builds if you want to take advantage of those fixed quirks, whereas with the skill tree you have a choice as to how you want to buff your mech.

[Lostdragon]

Gentleman Reaper, on 07 December 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

Some mechs will still have quirks after the new skill tree comes, although we don't know if it'll be only durability and mobility quirks or weapon quirks as well. The problem with the latter is than it forces you to go with specific builds if you want to take advantage of those fixed quirks, whereas with the skill tree you have a choice as to how you want to buff your mech.

Some quirks will probably basically be mandatory, so if you give some mechs a few points in the skills related to heat and speed then you are freeing up skill points that can be used however you want for other things. There is no need for some crazy BS that requires you to calculate how much the skill will actually give with varying numbers of weapons.

[Khobai]

Quote

as has been suggested before was the idea for cost to increase with higher levels,
Example
Laser Heat Gen Lv 1(-5%) = 1SkillPoint
Laser Heat Gen Lv 2(-5%) = 2SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 3(-5%) = 3SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 4(-5%) = 4SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 5(-5%) = 5SkillPoints,

all that does is encourage people to spread points out and defeats the purpose of going deep into trees because its not efficient to do so.

the only way something like that would work is if there were amazing unlocks at the bottom end of each tree to justify the insane points investment required to get to the bottom of a tree.

the point of a skill tree is about choices. so spending all your points in shallow skills across several trees or going deep in two or three trees should be equally beneficial

Edited by Khobai, 07 December 2016 - 09:24 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Lostdragon, on 07 December 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

That is literally no different than how it works with modules now. If you are boating one primary weapon you can take range and CD modules, if you have two or more weapon types you have to make choices on which modules to take. If you are boating one weapon you may be able to take advantage of stacking quirks and modules or in the future skills for it that make it strong but you can never fully compensate for the weaker mechanics that popularly boated weapons have like short range, long CD, long burn duration, high heat, spread, etc.

It is different. With modules the only penalty you pay for having multiple weapon types is that you can't equip range modules. Range is a property that doesn't affect all your shots, only when firing in the extended range region, then you get a fraction more damage. The cooldown is the important module and you can equip two or three of these regardless.

With the skill tree it's much more than range that is affected. The difference can be as high as 20-25 SP. Say the boat need to spend 20 points to reach cooldown lvl5 = +12.5% DPS. Then a SRM+Laser loadout will need to spend 40 points to reach cooldown lvl5 on all weapons = +12.5 DPS. The mixed loadout will always get 50% yield on the SP spent compared to the boat. That's a huge penalty, probably so big that it will only be justified to spend SP on weapons trees if you're boating. If you have more than one weapon you are probably better off spending everything on general trees.

These extra SP, the boat can spend on things like armor, structure, speed, agility, heat management. That's a lot more important than getting 12% range (which for reference corresponds to only 5 SP, and 5 ill spent SP if you ask me).

[PhoenixFire55]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 December 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

im just offering a solution, to what i feel maybe a problem in the future,
and doing such offer a solution to help Mixed builds as to set them apart from boats,

You are either missing or ignoring the point. You are offering a solution to what like half the players don't see as a problem to begin with. Same time you are oblivious to a great deal of "new" problems that'll occur if boating will be made a non-viable option.

[davoodoo]

You just dont fight boating by nerfing boating, you fight boating by buffing mixed builds.

[Kotzi]

Nice way to kill brawling and encourage a lot more of sniping and peek a boo. So why should i sacrifice range and build lighter but more weapons with short range again? Having same heat and shootin as fast as long range weapons? But having to get close to do actuall damage? Correct me if i am wrong but this seems no solution to me.

[Vxheous]

This is a terrible f**king idea, I would just forgo weapon quirks and dump everything into movement and durability....and still boat whatever weapons I want.

[Duke Nedo]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 08 December 2016 - 05:39 AM, said:

This is a terrible f**king idea, I would just forgo weapon quirks and dump everything into movement and durability....and still boat whatever weapons I want.

I agree, but here's an interesting twist: you just underlined the exact reason why boating is buffed relative to mechs carrying more than one weapon by the current state of that placeholder skill-tree.

Edit: I.e. if you don't get the full yield of your SP investment it's useless.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 08 December 2016 - 05:44 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Boating will never go away.

[Vxheous]

Duke Nedo, on 08 December 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

I agree, but here's an interesting twist: you just underlined the exact reason why boating is buffed relative to mechs carrying more than one weapon by the current state of that placeholder skill-tree.

Edit: I.e. if you don't get the full yield of your SP investment it's useless.

It's no different than having the two weapon modules now. You use the weapons modules that give you the most boost to the specific weapon you're using.

[Duke Nedo]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 08 December 2016 - 05:48 AM, said:

It's no different than having the two weapon modules now. You use the weapons modules that give you the most boost to the specific weapon you're using.

Same principle, but much worse effect with the skill-tree. You may miss out on the range module now, no big deal as long as you can fit the cooldown modules. However, if you lose out on an entire skill branch for half your weapons in the new skill-tree, that's a suckerpunch making weapon skill branches non-viable if you carry more than one weapon. That's why people have concerns that boating will be the only way to play, instead of merely the best way to play.

Edit: Boating can't be nerfed though, I agree. We just need the skill-tree not to force boating. That's a valid concern.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 08 December 2016 - 06:02 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Duke Nedo, on 07 December 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

It is different. With modules the only penalty you pay for having multiple weapon types is that you can't equip range modules. Range is a property that doesn't affect all your shots, only when firing in the extended range region, then you get a fraction more damage. The cooldown is the important module and you can equip two or three of these regardless.

With the skill tree it's much more than range that is affected. The difference can be as high as 20-25 SP. Say the boat need to spend 20 points to reach cooldown lvl5 = +12.5% DPS. Then a SRM+Laser loadout will need to spend 40 points to reach cooldown lvl5 on all weapons = +12.5 DPS. The mixed loadout will always get 50% yield on the SP spent compared to the boat. That's a huge penalty, probably so big that it will only be justified to spend SP on weapons trees if you're boating. If you have more than one weapon you are probably better off spending everything on general trees.

These extra SP, the boat can spend on things like armor, structure, speed, agility, heat management. That's a lot more important than getting 12% range (which for reference corresponds to only 5 SP, and 5 ill spent SP if you ask me).

You are making assumptions that are incorrect based on what we have seen so far. This could change, but the way the preview trees are set up you only have to get 6 skills in a tree to max out cooldowns (and 1 of the 6 is the first range skill). If you want to max CD and range it is only 10 points. If you want to max out CD for two types of weapons it would be 12 points but you are also getting 1 range skill on each of the weapons. The velocity and duration quirks are the same way. The skill point discrepancy to replicate the effects of two of our current modules is very small between doing it for one weapon or doing it for two. You also have more freedom to get velocity/duration instead, which I think are more valuable than CD for most weapons.

[Duke Nedo]

Lostdragon, on 08 December 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

You are making assumptions that are incorrect based on what we have seen so far. This could change, but the way the preview trees are set up you only have to get 6 skills in a tree to max out cooldowns (and 1 of the 6 is the first range skill). If you want to max CD and range it is only 10 points. If you want to max out CD for two types of weapons it would be 12 points but you are also getting 1 range skill on each of the weapons. The velocity and duration quirks are the same way. The skill point discrepancy to replicate the effects of two of our current modules is very small between doing it for one weapon or doing it for two. You also have more freedom to get velocity/duration instead, which I think are more valuable than CD for most weapons.

It doesn't matter how the ladder works in detail, as long as you have to use twice as many SP to skill up two weapons as you need to skill up one boated weapon. The result is the same. You can use the saved points on other things like armor/structure/speed/agility/heat management etc, all things that give you more performance than a range module.

The only scenario where it doesn't matter much is if you get so many SP that you can get all the essentials + 2-3 weapon-branches... and I think Russ already said that won't be the case. As long as you have to make choices, the boat is buffed on top of what we have today, and to me that sounds like bad design.

We can only wait to see now. If they launch without making any considerations to this I'll just boat the hell out of the system like everyone else, no problem. I'll just be bored a little quicker than if there were more viable builds to fool around with.

[process]

Khobai, on 07 December 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

all that does is encourage people to spread points out and defeats the purpose of going deep into trees because its not efficient to do so.

the only way something like that would work is if there were amazing unlocks at the bottom end of each tree to justify the insane points investment required to get to the bottom of a tree.

the point of a skill tree is about choices. so spending all your points in shallow skills across several trees or going deep in two or three trees should be equally beneficial

That's precisely it. You can choose to generalize or specialize. This system is attempting to ensure you can't over specialize. We have to keep in mind the numbers can and should be tweaked so that both paths have the same potential, and weapon balance must continue to be scrutinized independently.

I think it's also worth noting that, while it may appear that we have an enormous amount of skill points, we're probably only looking at a very small range of improvements, e.g. a maximum of +5% speed, a maximum of -10% heat gen, etc.. A single skill tier may only get you like -1% heat gen.

[ADI84000]

why not understand that each mech is gonna have a unique skill tree wich gives the option to give each mech strengths... better nodes like some mechs will have x per skill point some will have more or less per skill point on that node , for example the atlas will have more on the defense skill tree part than lets say a locust ), so u guys dont understand that each mech will have a diferent skill tree and percents per skill point wich means EACH MECH IS GONNA HAVE SOME STRENGHTS AND SOME WEAKNESSES , some mechs will have better points per skill point on lets say that type of weapon or those 2-3 weapons and some mechs gonna have super mobility cause its a light ) and some mechs gonna have super firepower cause thats its strength ,,,, i say wait to see each mechs skill tree , cause each mech will have a unique skill tree