354 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 11 December 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

It can still brawl?

/shrug

Yes, because brawling with instadeath XL and bad ST geo works so well for the IS mechs that try it......

[Valhallan]

LordNothing, on 11 December 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

what if we introduce rules to make critting an is xl engine slightly harder than simply cleaving off the st?

the st structure provides a second layer of armor to the engine, so long as there is some structure left, engine crit rolls only pass 25% of the damage to the engine slots. each of the 3 engine slots is considered a separate entry with its own hit points which have to be zeroed out before that slot is destroyed. 3 crits are required to take out an engine.

If there were normal engine crits at all xl wouldn't be as great as it is now (this would buff the dreaded 6mg spider though so i don't see it happening )

Mcgral18, on 11 December 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Make things last longer

This can also be done by nerfing all weapons to TT values

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 December 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Yes, because brawling with instadeath XL and bad ST geo works so well for the IS mechs that try it......

I'm specifically implying the current game (not the hypothetical, in which it would just be a pinata).

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 December 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Considering how many mechs were designed, geometry wise, because of the freedom of the C-XL, I would say that would ensure you never see ears on a Timberwolf EVER again (already a crucially endangered species), the Warhawk is officially dead, etc.

Just don't see it working.

just think about the DWF, its a box, this would make it a cardboard box,

[Mcgral18]

Valhallan, on 11 December 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

This can also be done by nerfing all weapons to TT values

Yes, they do deal ~ 50% more damage than source, but that doesn't fix the massive engine imbalance

[Y E O N N E]

There are so many Clan 'Mechs that become trash if the cXL kills it after a single side torso. Even the Timberwolf is gonna have a bad time with isXL properties.

Let's consider the issues:

isXL is slightly larger and places critical targets in places with less hit-points, causing the required TTK for an isXL equipped 'Mech to be lower than that of a cXL-equipped 'Mech.

STD engine is heavy and forces 'Mechs to run slower and hotter for a given amount of firepower.

For me, the desired solution is to make the isXL buff the hit-points in the side torsos of the 'Mech based on its maximum default number of hit-points until the TTK is similar to the Clan 'Mech. For STD engines, they ought to buff hit-points in all three sections, but to a lesser degree in the sides relative to XL, as well as provide a heat capacity bonus to help mitigate the heat issues.

I do not want to see one XL behave like a watered-down version of the other, because that's the same level of snore as having an IS MedLas get buffed into being a watered-down version of a cER MedLas. It would be another step on the road toward making IS and Clan simple reskins of each other.

[Valhallan]

Mcgral18, on 11 December 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Yes, they do deal ~ 50% more damage than source, but that doesn't fix the massive engine imbalance

Actually they do a lot more than that for some, LL's do 150%+ more for example 21+ per 10 secs MWO to 8 per 10 TT
True, but engine crits will help a lot there (if only they would just accept the 6mg spider )

[RestosIII]

That's... an idea. Not one I would ever willingly sign on to, but it's there. The problems for me with that idea are two-fold. First of all, I don't like XL ST deaths in general. I don't think IS XL engines should have it either. Second, that just turned almost every Clan Omnimech outside of the absolute top performers into terrible options. Doing that will make Clan Battlemechs even better than they already are in comparison to Omnimechs. We already have a hug imbalance in favor of Clan Battlemechs, I don't want it to get even worse than it currently is. Please don't do that to me.

Deathlike, on 11 December 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

It can still brawl?

/shrug

I can't wait for my Timber Wolf Prime lore loadout to be absolutely worthless because of my LRM racks being huge targets and instantly dying if someone targets them. And everyone will target them 100% of the time if they know it will be an instant kill.

Edited by RestosIII, 11 December 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 11 December 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

I'm specifically implying the current game (not the hypothetical, in which it would just be a pinata).

Well the OP is about the hypothetical, hence my comment, which is pretty specifically addressing the OP. (I get you like to be competitive, and I guess need to "win" on the forums, too, but seriously?)

[Mcgral18]

Valhallan, on 11 December 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Actually they do a lot more than that for some, LL's do 150%+ more for example 21+ per 10 secs MWO to 8 per 10 TT
True, but engine crits will help a lot there (if only they would just accept the 6mg spider )

Doubled armor offsets that 3x firepower

Meaning 50% greater

[Tarl Cabot]

I do not see why so many people want to BUFF STD engines, WTF criteria!?!??!? It must be a swallowing STD while using its finger nails...

Structural quirks are there due to mech geometry/surface area, a number of Omni and Clan Battlemechs have structural quirks and utilize the survivable cXL engine.

Most of the preferred IS battlemechs utilize the STD due to LOW engine cap or are willing to take it nice and slow with half of its weapons. If isXL performed after damage similar to cXL they would have to decide to go a tad slower and equip fewer heatsinks but not have a drop in speed/agility + heat penalties.

A durable isXL would benefit more so the lower tiered mechs, and those mechs were speed is vital simply to make it harder to hit them, while for heavier mechs their payload would not change but simply their ability to keep up with their unit, provided their mech does not have a low engine cap.

Changing to actual engine crits, be it the default max 3, or even more, would definitely mean most of us would need to equip more rear armor.....overall with this being a FPS, TTK would likely decrease.

As for structural quirks, remember many of those are being changed to armor quirks. What does that mean, really? You have to spend points/weight, while there will be fewer if any buffed structural points, which will reduce the number of times actual crit are rolled before a section is destroyed.

It does make one wonder WTF PGI was thinking when adding Clans and their cXL with the then NO negative effect with the loss of one side torso, thinking death with 2 side torso were enough?

[Valhallan]

Mcgral18, on 11 December 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Doubled armor offsets that 3x firepower

Meaning 50% greater

Oh right forgot about that, well nerfing that bonus should offset the lowered ttk of engine crit death no? at least unless your in a no rear armor metamech and the 6 mg spider arrives

[Kasumi Sumika]

Simply NO!

I rather have IS XL Engine buffed and more durable as Clan XL. Or maybe add IS LFE even PGI will do it on low chance but a man can dream.

[Y E O N N E]

Kasumi Sumika, on 11 December 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Simply NO!

I rather have IS XL Engine buffed and more durable as Clan XL. Or maybe add IS LFE even PGI will do it on low chance but a man can dream.

LFEs do not solve the problem. They are merely slightly less bad than STD engines in the weight department while being slightly less bad than isXLs in the TTK department.

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 December 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

LFEs do not solve the problem. They are merely slightly less bad than STD engines in the weight department while being slightly less bad than isXLs in the TTK department.

Yea, LFE alone wont balance clan vs is, pgi would need to give the IS their other special techs like tsm and MELEE FUN WEAPONS (where clanners are inferior per lore).

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 December 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well the OP is about the hypothetical, hence my comment, which is pretty specifically addressing the OP. (I get you like to be competitive, and I guess need to "win" on the forums, too, but seriously?)

Not really... I'm way too indifferent these days when it comes to ForumWarrioring.

[Y E O N N E]

Valhallan, on 11 December 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yea, LFE alone wont balance clan vs is, pgi would need to give the IS their other special techs like tsm and MELEE FUN WEAPONS (where clanners are inferior per lore).

LFEs with Snub-Nose PPC, Light AC, ER Lasers, and X-Pulse might come pretty close, but the cUACs, cSRMs, and cEndo/cFerro upset everything.

[Battlemaster56]

No this idea will destroy basically 70% of my mechs in the garage, and I'm starting to sound like a broken record here but buff IS XL to function like the Clan's just give it a 30% penalty, and give STD engines a considerable buff as some my Orion IIC's uses Standard engines( also Clan and IS STD. Engines are the same).

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 December 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

LFEs with Snub-Nose PPC, Light AC, ER Lasers, and X-Pulse might come pretty close, but the cUACs, cSRMs, and cEndo/cFerro upset everything.

Yea, because those are attempts for the IS the catch up in those fields, thats why i specifically mentioned melee where IS is acknowledged as superior . (at least until dark ages where those fethed jade turkeys stole our tsm and made melee weapons too)

[Duke Nedo]

I am all for normalization between clan and is XL engines, but I prefer the other way around, to buff the IS XL, because the clan omnis can't choose to go STD. Didn't read though all replies, but I am sure it was brought up already. The timber would almost suffer from the XL-stalker syndrome and be dead etc...

But XL normalization of some kind, yay!