354 replies to this topic

[ChapeL]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 December 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Lowering TTK for everybody would be an even bigger issue, though.

Then we're back at the issue of "every weapon on your mech can hit the exact same point on your target" issue. Remove that and an actual working crit system for engines is no longer a massive factor for TTK.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 December 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Uhh no. That would make a lot of Clan mechs pretty useless. Prefer STD engine durability buffs and IS XL buffed to function like Clan XL.

Buff STD structure, yes, make isXL like cXL, no. Just give isXL ST structure buffs and you get a balanced and still distinct and lore accurate engine. This coming from an IS player, keep IS tech IS tech and keep Clan tech Clan tech.

[naterist]

so, what if instead of death on a st loss, we make clan and xl engines both have the same death parameters, so you have to lose your ct or both side torsos to be killed with an xl engine in both techs, but clan keeps its negligible loss of speed and heat increase, and innersphere mechs speed drops as if they lost a leg and their minimum heat jumps to 35-40%.

keeps is mechs in the fight with the drawbacks that would be expected of their less advanced technology, and pgi wont have to worry about a time shift for light engines. and light engines will have a niche they can fill with their own unique risk-reward system when they finally come out, in year 202#.

[Y E O N N E]

ChapeL, on 11 December 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

Then we're back at the issue of "every weapon on your mech can hit the exact same point on your target" issue. Remove that and an actual working crit system for engines is no longer a massive factor for TTK.

Name one other shooter where the rounds fired don't go essentially where you are pointing.

Like it or not, this is a shooter. This is not Table Top, and nor should it be.

That being said, the better solution to the crit problem would be to buff the health per crit, not to make weapons fire in six different directions.

[iliketurtles87]

this game should be an e-sport title but fails miserable at balancing both factions. give one faction straight up better equipment and weapons will kill this game even faster.
My ideas:

• let clan omnimechs not die from a sidetorso lose because they cant change engines
  
• clan battlemech should have the same rules like the IS have. Death on sidetorso lose, so that clan battlemechs have to choose between firepower or survivability like every IS-mech have to do.

Even after this, clan battlemech would still have:

• 7 slot endo & ferro
  
• better DHS
  
• lighter weapons with less slots
  
• TC's
  
• gausrifle witch weights 3 tons less (lol)
  
• half ton LRM, SRM and no minimum range on the lrm
  
• straight up better narc and ER-PPC
  
• more weapons (UAC 10, 20, Streaks 4,6)
  
• Xl-Engine witch Needs only 2 slots per sidetorso (IS mechs cant have 2 uac5 or a ac 20 in a sidetorso with xl-engine)

The Kodiak would be also balanced and could geht those nerfs reverted.

Edited by iliketurtles87, 11 December 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clan XL are fine as they are. And don't respond with lore doesn't make a good online game nonsense either.

Per lore, Clan XL engines only suffered speed and heat penalties if one torso segment of the engine was damaged. This is because there are only 2 crits of clan XL engine in a torso vs 3 crits of IS XL engine.

As far as "good game play", there is also a reason to leave them as is. With Clan Omni mechs, there is no ability to choose engine size, they are hardwired into the chassis. In lore, any attempt to changed that would either cripple the mechs capabilities, or render it an battlemech and no longer an omni, In fact, all aspects of an omni mechs , other than the omni pods are totally fixed items that cannot be varied, endo, ferro, etc.

IS mechs all of the above are customizable. XL engine is a choice, endo, ferro, are choices you can make, which actually makes IS mechs far superior in their ability to be "customized. THiS is the advantage of IS mechs, the disadvantage is IS mechs XLs do explode if a torso segment is taken out.

Clan XL does not, but Clan Omnis engines are not a choice, nor the other structural components, you are stuck with what comes stock, whether you want it or not. The only ability to customize a Clan Omni is in what pods you utilize.

Clan XLs in Omni mechs should, and must, retain this ability.

I utilize IS XLs all the time, and honestly, it's rarely an issue, and only if I run into a ballistics dakka line. In fact, I lose more torsos in Clan mechs than I ever do with an IS XL'd mech.

Both factions need to have unique advantages and disadvantages, for Clan, it's sturdier XLs but lack of structure/engine configuration, with IS, it's less robust XLs, but the ability to customize all engine/structural aspects.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 11 December 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Lupus Aurelius, on 11 December 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Both factions need to have unique advantages and disadvantages, for Clan, it's sturdier XLs but lack of structure/engine configuration, with IS, it's less robust XLs, but the ability to customize all engine/structural aspects.

Kodiak, the IIC line and future Clan Battlemechs say "Hi"

Also, IS Omnis say "Hi" from the future

Customisation or lack thereof is no longer a valid argument for or against the XL disparity

[Pjwned]

El Bandito, on 11 December 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

So hear me out before you post any replies. I'm pretty glad that the upcoming patch is equalizing a few tech difference between IS and Clans. However, the biggest culprit of tech imbalance in my opinion, the XL engine difference, still has not been properly addressed. Now PGI can do that is several ways, but I feel that simply making the CXL explode just like that of IS XL after single ST destruction is the simplest way to achieve balance. Imagine those Arctic Cheetas and Kodiak-3s exploding after one ST destruction. Not so intimidating now, are they?

Here are some of my reasons for it.

1. CXL and its durability came from the original tabletop game rules. It is a type of game where people rolled dice to randomly hit locations and where something called engine hit exists. Both are absent from MWO and their absence is contributing to the absolute fragility of IS XL compared to CXL in this game, since people can freely focus on one ST of an IS XL mech to take it down fast.

2. Nerfing CXL will give a reason for Clan battlemechs to equip Standard engine. Currently all Clan mechs that has the ability to equip different engines will almost always choose CXL over Std engine, except on few builds where slots are necessary. Once CXL is nerfed, some of the best Clan battlemechs such as the HBK-IIC or Kodiaks will now have to choose between carrying less firepower or dying to single ST explosion--both choices serve to make those mechs much less impacting than before.

3. Why make CXL fragile? Why not buff Standard engine for both sides as well as IS XL? I prefer simpler solution, so rather than buffing the other two with values I cannot predict, I opted for bringing down the CXL, so it will be more of a sidegrade than that of straight up upgrade over Clan Std engine. I prefer sidegrades.

4. Wouldn't making CXL fragile completely shorten TTK against Clan mechs? Here lies the beauty of the new skill tree system. It offers durability tree with +armor/structure bonuses. Now those Clan mechs have to split their skill points between durability and lethality, instead of focusing chiefly on lethality thanks to ST death proof XL engine. Which helps to bring down the best Clan mechs to best IS mech level (naturally IS quirks will be reduced due to this change). Underperforming Clan mechs can simply gain base stats boost like that of underperforming IS mechs. Even Steven.

5. What about IS LFE? PGI stated in clear terms that new tech is not on the horizon. So yeah.

6. Nerfing CXL, thus bringing down the power level of the Clan mechs as a whole means IS mechs will need less quirks to compete with the Clan mechs, which means less work for PGI, especially for the upcoming new skill tree system. Most IS quirks will be reduced or removed in exchange. And perhaps after all these years there might be an IS mech that can go toe to toe with the best Clan mech without any quirks.


Now I know there are some situations where my suggestion can be seen as a detriment, such as omnimechs with big STs unable to change their engine type. Just remember that IS mechs will lose a lot of their quirks as the result of this change, and there is durability tree in the new skill tree to extend one's life. Omnimechs will still retain their advantage of min-maxing their omnipods, compared to Battlemechs. Bottom line is, this change can help to bring balance to both sides.


I don't need flame shield.

As much as I dislike buffing IS XL engines before making at least a dozen other changes that are needed first...

That seems really unfair to every single Clan omnimech that's stuck with an XL engine inside and can't be changed, and it would most likely lead to the vast majority of Clan mechs being put in the dumpster unless they also got some other drastic changes to compensate.

I'm also not wild about setting a precedent that would make LFEs worthless because new tech should be coming soon and PGI is just being stupid (i.e PGI being PGI) to not make it a bigger priority.

Edited by Pjwned, 11 December 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Jay Leon Hart, on 11 December 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Kodiak, the IIC line and future Clan Battlemechs say "Hi"

Also, IS Omnis say "Hi" from the future

Customisation or lack thereof is no longer a valid argument for or against the XL disparity

There are currently no IS Omnis, so that's a problem FOR THE FUTURE...

And as far as the Kodiak, the issue with that is not the XL engine, it's that it is still too beefy...you mistake an issue with one mech as being indicative of the class. Like the recent Clan Ultra's change, which was ridiculous, since the issue wasn't the weapon but the chassis (Kodiak) that it was mounted on.

[Sjorpha]

I agree, IS and Clan XL engines need to be equally good.

I don't really care how it's done, if it's clan dying on ST loss, IS surviving ST loss, or some other big bonus to IS XL that equals ST survival in power, such as very significant agility buffs or whatever.

But it needs to happen one way or the other, because one side having strictly worse equipment is really really bad game design.

[Baulven]

To do this you would need to unlock everything across all omni mechs. The reason is there are a lot of clan builds that become straight up DOA if you can't change their other equipment if they are forced to take a standard.

First example that comes to mind is the Executioner. If you make it run a standard its weapon package becomes absolute garbage (or you walk so slow you make a dire look fast) and that doesn't even account for other mechs with similar characteristics. This will quite literally be the death of non top performers in clans and people will only run the highest performers because nothing else will work or be worth it.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Nope. This goes contrary to what needs to happen. We should be looking to increase survivability in IS 'Mechs, not decrease it in Clan.

There is a simple and highly effective solution that is just painfully obvious. Everyone knows what it is, really; even if they are against it. It's so obvious and well known that I'm not even going to bother laying out... again.

This topic springs from the fact that PGI refuses to meaningfully and correctly balance the game.

PGI, fix it already, and do it right.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 11 December 2016 - 08:54 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

having read everyone elses suggestions and the OP's i think the best solution would be:

(this all assumes that all quirks are removed/ skill tree replaced)

1) allow Clan omnis to switch between XL and STD engines of the same stock rating (or equivalent tonnage)
2) Keep IS and Clan XL differences as they are
3) Buff STD engines to give structure/armor quirks to STs and CT on top of those either present or chosen from the skill tree.

This would increase the incentive to use STD engines in general and if STDs are just as viable (albeit different) as XLs taken up could increase TTK.

[PAINLESS 42]

It's not the worst idea. all his points about tabletop are spot on, plus the whole balance by BV that doesn't exist....... at this point, PGI has mucked with so many values, I don't think the XL engine can be treated as a sacred cow. Another Idea as a 1/2 step idea could be imobilization , instead of speed loss.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

What's with the obsession of trying to absolutely ruin every last bit of fun left in the game for clan players?

Nerfing clan ballistics to the point of uselessness when they already lacked the PPFLD of the IS ballistics was disgusting. Now you want them to all explode just because you blew off a torso?

Have you ever used a clan mech and had to tolerate our laser burn times? Or watched as our missiles accomplish absolutely nothing against an AMS unit?

I'm not saying clan is UP, I'm saying the incessant nerfs is getting ridiculous when we already deal with a lot of negatives.

At least if you're going to nerf something make it funner to use instead of punishing... They could have gave CUACs more heat as a penalty for balance issues, but no, they have to use RNG nonsense to ruin any enjoyability they had, and make jam times twice as long as the average TTK.

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 11 December 2016 - 10:24 PM.

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 December 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Lowering TTK for everybody would be an even bigger issue, though.

Thats why the solve is a mix of solutions
Allow engine crit death to make std engines more viable (fear the 6 mg spider metamechs! muwahahaha )
Nerf the general bonus weapon dmg mcgral mentioned back to TT values to offset the TTK reduction
Add IS's special gubbinz (THE FUN MELEE SYSTEM ) to balance IS and Clans

[Bradigus]

VitriolicViolet, on 11 December 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

1) allow Clan omnis to switch between XL and STD engines of the same stock rating (or equivalent tonnage)

No offense, but this would lead to some stupid shenanigans as most clan omnimechs lack the space for an equivalent rating STD engine, and would drop drastically in engine rating in order to achieve the same tonnage. The Ice Ferret would, for example, go from an XL360 to a STD280 and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Not to mention engine locked heatsinks would have to be removable, which is its own can of worms.

Edited by Bradigus, 11 December 2016 - 10:41 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Bradigus, on 11 December 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

No offense, but this would lead to some stupid shenanigans as most clan omnimechs lack the space for an equivalent rating STD engine, and would drop drastically in engine rating in order to achieve the same tonnage. The Ice Ferret would, for example, go from an XL360 to a STD280 and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Not to mention engine locked heatsinks would have to be removable, which is its own can of worms.

Yes, that's ridiculous as a solution. It's also the life of many IS mechs that don't get any - or don't get enough - ST quirks. I have many STD280's in my inventory for much larger mechs than the ferret. The immortal ST-XL for clans is a huuuge tonnage saver, and one of the major reasons why we need strong quirks on every single IS mech for it to be able to compete. At the moment I only think there is 1 or 2 IS chassi that has strong enough quirks to compete, the clans have the best in every single weight class. That's poor design. I miss what we had after the quirkenings, before the dequirkenings. There was lot's of variation back then!

The simple solution has always been to let IS XLs survive a ST loss at a slightly higher penalty than clan XL ST loss, and buff both IS and clan STDs with structure bonuses. If you do that you can get rid of structure quirks and end up with a system that is much easier to balance.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 11 December 2016 - 11:34 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Can we say that the Omni System as it is is a failure?
Can't we turn all OmnIMechs into BattleMechs and call it a day?

I can see the merit behind this idea, hey double ST kill might kill you either but usually two STs have more structure then one CT so you only go for the ST on a ClanMech when it's already heavy damaged (or i do)

The underlying issue is the weight. With indestructable XL for IS every IS Mech will run XL (or they need the slots for the AC20 or other weapon combinations)
But think of Boars Head....with indestructable 400XL. Why should this Mech not be viable where as a KDK 3 can run the same speed with even better a weapon loadout?

The argument Clans have superior Tech and should have better Tech is only valid if you have proof that you are a genetical engineered human with superior genes that has trained to play MWO for the last 10 years.

[Requiemking]

Duke Nedo, on 11 December 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yes, that's ridiculous as a solution. It's also the life of many IS mechs that don't get any - or don't get enough - ST quirks. I have many STD280's in my inventory for much larger mechs than the ferret. The immortal ST-XL for clans is a huuuge tonnage saver, and one of the major reasons why we need strong quirks on every single IS mech for it to be able to compete. At the moment I only think there is 1 or 2 IS chassi that has strong enough quirks to compete, the clans have the best in every single weight class. That's poor design. I miss what we had after the quirkenings, before the dequirkenings. There was lot's of variation back then!

The simple solution has always been to let IS XLs survive a ST loss at a slightly higher penalty than clan XL ST loss, and buff both IS and clan STDs with structure bonuses. If you do that you can get rid of structure quirks and end up with a system that is much easier to balance.

Actually, there is an even simpler solution that in the long run would make PGI more money. That is the LFE. Gives IS mechs Clan XL capabilities(for slightly more weight), thus allowing more mechs to be viable.