122 replies to this topic

[Elessar]

W A R K H A N, on 12 December 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Funny thing, in all my CW matches griniding out clan ranks, most games were a loss to IS. 10 vs 12 is a terrible idea get it out of your head.

Then. I suspect, you did most of your battles at that time in Scout matches and not in invasion ones.
Thanks to the tonnage limit on the Drop Deck (one Mech at up to 55t) and the victory conditions (if you are the intel gatherer, you can win by runnign away/hiding (perhaps aided by ECM) and then going to the extraction zone, at the right time, thereby avoiding as lot of combat) the equipment advantage of the clans in scout matches isn't as pronounced (and IS mechs have a better chance at overcoming the clan equipment advantage with the help of skill, than theyx have in invasion matches)

Edited by Elessar, 13 December 2016 - 12:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Baulven, on 12 December 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Shorter burn time allows you to put more damage on the target with less chance of them rolling it. Why do you think clan small pulse is so popular? Medium pulse would be highly used as well, except they run ungodly hot even with maxed heat sinks (just over two alphas for shut down and getting internal damage.)

sure
but when the "max" damage potential is higher the longer burn isn't such a big drawback.
and the Large ER Lasers are 99.9% equal when it comes to damage per 100ms. (both deal 7.2-7.3 dmg per 1sec burn)
The Clan weapon got more heat but also allows the better pilot to deal more damage and it weight less.

The reasons this discussion won't stop are the quirks, and given the last statements. It will stay this way.
On the paper with the pure stats the (just an example) Clan ER Large Laser is equal to the IS ER Large Laser. But thanks to quirks - it might be much much better on chassis X and even worse on chassis Y.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 December 2016 - 01:10 AM.

[Lily from animove]

the issue is that there is hardly any clan vs is imbalance, the issue is some chassis are too good and others are too bad. the tech itself isn't often the reason. An exception may be the can battlemechs which enjoy full customisation + better clanstuff. They make too many min max stuff possible. If PGI would allow full crosstech we would see what is imbalanced and I guess that would be some clanbattlemechs with IS weapons like the uac's

[Aiden Skye]

Elessar, on 13 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Then. I suspect, you did most of your battles at that time in Scout matches and not in invasion ones.
Thanks to the tonnage limit on the Drop Deck (one Mech at up to 55t) and the victory conditions (if you are the intel gatherer, you can win by runnign away/hiding (perhaps aided by ECM) and then going to the extraction zone, at the right time, thereby avoiding as lot of combat) the equipment advantage of the clans in scout matches isn't as pronounced (and IS mechs have a better chance at overcoming the clan equipment advantage with the help of skill, than theyx have in invasion matches)

I didn't reach rank 20 for ghost bear and 17 for wolf by doing scout matches. The vast majority of matches were invasion. And most of them were losses to IS. Like it or not IS mechs aren't nearly as helpless as the forums would have you believe.

[Stugg]

C-ERSL is equivalent to the IS-ML only better. Less range and weight.
C-ERML is equivalent to the IS-LL only better. Less range and weight.
C-LPL is equivalent to the IS-LPL only worse. Can carry only 2 and not 4.
C-SRM is equivalent to the IS-SRM only mostly better. Bigger spread and less weight.
C-ERLL is equivalent to the IS-ERLL only better. More range, less weight.
C-UAC's/LBX/AC is equivalent to the IS-UAC/LBX/AC only better. Less weight and bursts(bad quality) with more options.
C-Gauss is equivalent to the IS-Gauss mostly.
C-XL is better then IS-XL. By a wide margin. Without this IS would not have structure quirks.
C-Endo/Ferro is equivalent to the IS-Endo/Ferro only better.
C-ECM/Beagle is equivalent to the IS-ECM/Beagle only better. Less Weight.
C-Quirks are worse then IS-Quirks.

Clan Advantage comes from weight savings and range. IS can compete in certain areas, but at a huge tonnage cost.

Now heat sinks are being normalized so by the end of today you should see an increase in clan advantage.



That all being said IS mechs aren't bad. I like them. But the overall advantage goes to clan.
I would give anything to drop some clan tech on my Locust even if it meant I lost the quirks.

Edited by Stugg, 13 December 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[Natural Predator]

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in clan mechs and more recently leveling IS mechs. I can without any reservation whatsoever say that the warhammer and grasshopper are the superior heavy mechs in the game comparatively so. The only clan heavy that can match those mechs is the Ebon jaguar with full laser vomit. Any unit worth its salt has long figured out how to quickly core out the nerfed kodiaks. The fact that we're talking about nerfing clan xl engines is absolutely ridiculous. Clan xl engines never were or are the problem. Whatever range advantages clans have are completely negated by competent is face rushes. Yes if you stand their and try to trade with decently coordinated clan units you will come out on the bad end of that. But the reality is that most wins and losses are heavily affected by coordination and focus fire. Things bad units don't do. To me the success that jade falcon has had is in part do to an influx of coordinated teams and effort to bring other teams within jadefalcon up to a competent level. So my hats off to jade falcon for coordinating your faction into competent teams. The game to me slightly favors IS meta play and not the reverse. And all of that is inconsequential when compared to pilot skill and team coordination.

[mogs01gt]

I have both and clan tech is vastly superior. Its not even worth discussing

[Dimento Graven]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 13 December 2016 - 07:15 AM, said:

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in clan mechs and more recently leveling IS mechs. I can without any reservation whatsoever say that the warhammer and grasshopper are the superior heavy mechs in the game comparatively so. The only clan heavy that can match those mechs is the Ebon jaguar with full laser vomit. Any unit worth its salt has long figured out how to quickly core out the nerfed kodiaks. The fact that we're talking about nerfing clan xl engines is absolutely ridiculous. Clan xl engines never were or are the problem. Whatever range advantages clans have are completely negated by competent is face rushes. Yes if you stand their and try to trade with decently coordinated clan units you will come out on the bad end of that. But the reality is that most wins and losses are heavily affected by coordination and focus fire. Things bad units don't do. To me the success that jade falcon has had is in part do to an influx of coordinated teams and effort to bring other teams within jadefalcon up to a competent level. So my hats off to jade falcon for coordinating your faction into competent teams. The game to me slightly favors IS meta play and not the reverse. And all of that is inconsequential when compared to pilot skill and team coordination.

I get what you're saying, you make some good points but you ignore the totality of the facts.

Yes, absolutely, I agree that the better coordinated team can typically do better in any match, regardless of the 'mechs they're in, but only to a certain point.

The team in Clan tech can afford less coordination that the team in IS tech. The team in Clan tech can afford more mistakes than the team in IS tech.

Yes, IF an IS team can close quickly enough in a coordinated fashion the Clan team is going to have issues, BUT, the problem is closing quickly enough. Since most IS heavies and assaults will move more slowly than their Clan equivalent because:

A. They don't have XL's loaded.
B. They STILL have to compromise speed on standard engine weight to load more weapons

So this puts the IS at a disadvantage because they are typically closing that gap more slowly, and with the Clans longer reach, that means the Clans start doing damage before the IS gets its own weapons in range, which means by the time the IS gets to the Clans, they're already sporting less armor, while the Clans are at full armor.

Sure, the IS light rushes, done right, can wreak havoc, until the Clans drop in their own lights, and again, the typical Clan drop decks have their best lights, which typically out class the IS lights, and then the IS lights are dead and the Clan lights can wreak havoc...

Ultimately the preponderance of ALL the tech give the Clans an advantage. The Turkayyid events seemed to show that the Clans were killing more 'mechs while doing less damage. The difference probably boiled down to those IS 'mechs that you just HAVE to load an XL in for them to be anywhere near maximum effectiveness (lights and some mediums).

This isn't a call for nerfing the Clan XL (because I agree with you, that's the WRONG way to go), but to figure out some way to allow the IS the use of engines that allow them to build 'mechs with the Trifecta: Fire Power+Speed+Survivability.

[Pariah Devalis]

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

snip

You value weapon specifics oddly. For example, you believe that the Clan UAC/LBX and the SRMs are better because they are lighter. Yet simultaneously state they have worse spread.

Damage doesn't matter unless the damage can be applied effectively. Application of damage >>> raw damage numbers. It is far easier to place a single 5 damage shell onto a single component on a moving target than two 2.5 damage shells. If I could install IS style single slug ACs on my Clan mechs, I absolutely would. It is simply superior to the burst mechanic in every way but one: it's fun as hell to unload a salvo of shells. Clans have UAC of all sizes, which means that they have the DPS advantage over the IS, but that damage is smearable, easily.

The damage dealt from an SRM burst is more effective if it clusters onto 1-2 sections, as opposed to 2-3, which is the case when comparing the tighter clustering IS SRM vs the Clan ones. Further, IS SRMs actually deal more raw damage than Clan SRMs at 2.15 per missile over the Clan 2.0. In order to get similar Clan SRM spread as the IS SRM, you need to invest in an Artemis system, and that negates the tonnage and crit slot advantage. Ergo, I would not say Clan SRM are better than IS SRM, at all.

You also ignore that the heat generated by many Clan weapon systems exceed that of any IS weapon systems, requiring additional investment in those DHS, which eats into the crit slot advantage. Then there are the really strange states of comparative weapon systems. For example, the Clan ERSLas has a longer burn duration than the IS LPLas. Am I the only one here who thinks that is a bit backwards? Anyone? Anyone?

The balance is close. Very close. Teamwork is OP, but the tech bases, while not perfectly aligned, are close. I'd like to see IS equipment keep moving towards the "durable as hell" direction while the Clan stuff heads towards a tradeoff of "lighter but more brittle." Things like mild structure quirks tied directly to IS Endo and mild armor quirks tied directly to IS Ferro. Bulkier, but more durable. However, I don't think nerfing everything is necessary. Especially when the idea is to try and increase the TTK, not decrease it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 December 2016 - 07:56 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

You wouldn't install them if they were still 9 tons and 5 slots each, though. Often, you wouldn't even be able to physically fit more than one.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 December 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

You wouldn't install them if they were still 9 tons and 5 slots each, though. Often, you wouldn't even be able to physically fit more than one.

I'd still mount them. And often, in most Clan mechs, with Clan weight ballistics, you still can't fit more than one anyways. Only a handful can actually fit two larger ballistics.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 December 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 December 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'd still mount them. And often, in most Clan mechs, with Clan weight ballistics, you still can't fit more than one anyways. Only a handful can actually fit two larger ballistics.

Only a handful of IS 'Mechs can fit more than one larger ballistic, and the sad part is that I have to consider a meager 5-class a larger ballistic.

The volume of fire you can pump out with boated 10s and/or 5s more than compensates for the FLD on the IS alternative. If you are doing power position, you want cUACs; the Night Gyr does it better than the Warhammer. If you are making snapshots for poking, you are using Gauss anyway; you wouldn't take a 12 ton AC/10 or 16 tons of paired AC/5.

[Pariah Devalis]

You do lose out on certain weapon synergies with the Clans vs the IS due to the lack of PPFLD options, however. For example, the concept of combining an AC5 with PPC simply does not exist for the Clans. If you want pinpoint damage application, your choices are "Gauss," "ERPPC," or "mass UAC2." Everything else is damage applied over time, and that sort of damage application is able to be countered with minimal face time. Directly leading to the high usage of Clan ERPPC, as it is one of only a few good options for that sort of PPFLD gameplay.

Been that way since Clan release, actually. Between their laser burn time (especially those LPLas) and frontloaded ACs, I found Clan mechs are weaker against hit and fade techniques by IS mechs. They really shine, however, when someone breaks cover and just lets themselves get leaned into.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 December 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Appogee]

mogs01gt, on 13 December 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

I have both and clan tech is vastly superior. Its not even worth discussing

I have both, too. And I too believe Clan tech is superior.

All my best-performing Mechs - in all weight classes - are Clan Mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 December 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

You do lose out on certain weapon synergies with the Clans vs the IS due to the lack of PPFLD options, however. For example, the concept of combining an AC5 with PPC simply does not exist for the Clans. If you want pinpoint damage application, your choices are "Gauss," "ERPPC," or "mass UAC2." Everything else is damage applied over time, and that sort of damage application is able to be countered with minimal face time.

It doesn't matter, though. A PPC and an AC/5 is an inferior solution. Not even the IS bring it, it 's always at least two AC/5 with the PPC, and only then because the AC/10 doesn't sync very well on velocity or range. Even further, it is simply more efficient to bring two PPC, which means you don't see the AC/5 until we've already spent 14 tons on energy weapons.

Quote

Been that way since Clan release, actually. I found Clan mechs are weaker against hit and fade techniques by IS mechs. They really shine, however, when someone breaks cover and just lets themselves get leaned into.

All 'Mechs are weak against hit and fade. Clans can ultimately do it better, though. That's what the HBK-IIC, NTG, TBR, NVA-A, and the SHC are all used for. IS might have an easier time executing it, but not as strongly.

Most people build Clans for stupidly big and hot alphas, though, and don't learn the more nuanced capabilities.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 December 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Hal Greaves]

clam mechs seem to be better at the hokey-pokey

IS mechs are total brawl mechs

depending on the strategy there are chassis from both sides that fit the bill

[Mcgral18]

Hal Greaves, on 13 December 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

clam mechs seem to be better at the hokey-pokey

IS mechs are total brawl mechs

depending on the strategy there are chassis from both sides that fit the bill

Clams brawl just fine as well

cSPLs are among the best short range weapons in the game, and every mech can take them (not that SRM6+As of both factions are far behind)

[Stugg]

@Pariah Devalis

I state that C-SRM is better then IS-SRM because they weigh half as much. You can drop a c-srm6 and the ammo for the tonnage to get just the SRM6 from IS. Yeah. That's just better even with more spread and .15 less damage per missile. For a splat storm crow at full srm6's that's 4.5 dmg that would have been spread out on either tech.

Yeah they both have advantages and disadvantages. I put it in my short analysis. Clan is just better tech though.

Tech base is not close. Tech base with quirks are close, and only in some situations. Clan still has the advantage unless you are not playing tto the clans strength.

Yes even the ERML is better then the ML even when you take into account current DHS rules [which change today], burn times and extra heat, and the fact that C-ERML is more akin to a IS-LL. Compare the Wolf hound with 5 ML and highest heat dissipation to an adder with 5 ERML and highest heat dissipation. Same tonnage. Same weight used in weapons. One is better. Even with quirks. Just better.

[Pariah Devalis]

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

@Pariah Devalis

I state that C-SRM is better then IS-SRM because they weigh half as much. You can drop a c-srm6 and the ammo for the tonnage to get just the SRM6 from IS. Yeah. That's just better even with more spread and .15 less damage per missile. For a splat storm crow at full srm6's that's 4.5 dmg that would have been spread out on either tech.

Your argument is horribly flawed because you treat all damage as equal. All damage is not equal. 10 damage applied to one location is greater than 10 damage across 3 locations. This is not opinion, but fact, when trying to eliminate a specific location on an enemy mech.

C-ASRM6 = IS SRM6 in weight, crits, and approximate spread. The IS SRM is still doing 0.9 damage more, and still has the option to take Artemis to make those SRMs even better than they are. There is no comparison, here. You have the option, but not the need, to go with Artemis with IS SRMs, whereas there is no option for the Clans. You take the Artemis whenever you can, because the spread without it is just awful.

At worst, the IS has a slight advantage in the SRM. At best, they wind up about equal. At no point do IS SRMs perform worse for the weight than Clan SRM.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 December 2016 - 11:10 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Hal Greaves, on 13 December 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

clam mechs seem to be better at the hokey-pokey

IS mechs are total brawl mechs

depending on the strategy there are chassis from both sides that fit the bill

The best IS brawler would be the atlas-s and the spiritbear in our unit tested killed it every time.

The only reason people think IS mechs can brawl is because brawling will kill range mechs up front. If you setup a clan team for brawling they will kill an IS team. With equal skill.