122 replies to this topic

[Lehmund]

Elessar, on 12 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

I have no doubt that you, being on the constantly winning side in faction warfare, want to believe that it is all about superior skills and not about superior equipment

We have a large enough population of players to draw performance statistics on a mech to mech basis. Better mechs of same size should statistically compare to others by performance alone, assuming these mech are piloted by a wide variety of pilots of all skill levels.

Whether Clan tech is OP in MWO vs IS should be based on that. I haven't looked at those charts but PGI has all the data for sure.

Any other argument is useless on this thread.

It's PGI's job to look at the data and nerf/buff accordingly, and for us to provide matches and data for them to look at.

Otherwise, enjoy the games and select mechs and builds you will personally perform well in.

This is an interesting post from 2015. I'm sure there are others like it out there.
https://www.reddit.c...ormance_charts/

[Van Hoven]

It's amazing how people think the burst fire of cAc isnt a big deal. The only way to deal consistent damage to a single body part with burst fire if a: the enemys is coming straight at you or is running straight away from you or b: the enemy is standing still. In every other case (lets say almost all cases if you fight against more experienced players) the damage you do with cAc is spread over at LEAST 2 locations. cAc is good at racking up dmg numbers, IS acs kill stuff. 3ac5 /ultra ac5 jager is devastating. Just shoot, twist, shoot. or stick a bit of your mech out of cover, shoot, move back. Time your shots for when the enemy is facing you if he is twisting.

With cAc you are at a serious disadvantage in a 1on1 situation unless you boat the hell out of them, which only the night gyr, dire and kodiak can do. Thats due to the fact that if boated you can do enough spread dmg to the enemy it still hurts. 2 cuAc10s are hardly worth taking.

I really wish pgi would unlock tech for everyone so we could see what ppl would take.

I'm NOT saying is/clan balance is perfect. I'm saying cAcs are NOT the problem on its own.

[Karl Streiger]

two sides of a medal. The accuracy with CACs is usualy higher - means you deal some damage per burst - maybe not full but a salvo is not automatically a miss or hit.

So i think the disadvante equals out with the advantage - and when hitting the target isn't a big deal because its slow and cumbersome - so is hitting him with the full burst isn't either.

Isuue might be primary the increased server load because of multiple projectiles.
And currently 110ms between the shots finish a AC10 burst in 220ms few people react that fast. So if your volley is twisted away its the fault of the shooter - because he shots when the target is twisting and he doesn't have a clear sight.

[Lily from animove]

Appogee, on 14 December 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

I have long wondered why Clan geneticists didn't weed out the "perpetual whining about IS Mechs" from the Clan gene pools.

Then I realised that "perpetually claiming to be victims" is a desirable evolutionary trait for them.

If the sheer weight of Clanner whining convinces the balance overlords to ignore evidence - such as the weight and range superiority of Clan equipment, superior XL engines, comp teams almost exclusively using Clan Mechs, both Tukkyid events won by the Clans, last night's contested planets all won by Clans - then they can maintain their tech dominance.

Makes perfect sense

sicne PGI balances about whine it is of course part of psychological warfare to whine as much as possible to not always get the nerfbat. AFAIK, Tukkayid 2 happened after clans have been nerfed a lot, and IS buffed yte it ended more in favour to the clans than Tuk1. So hows that to explain by logic? It simply isn't because the tech was not what made the difference.

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

two sides of a medal. The accuracy with CACs is usualy higher - means you deal some damage per burst - maybe not full but a salvo is not automatically a miss or hit.

So i think the disadvante equals out with the advantage - and when hitting the target isn't a big deal because its slow and cumbersome - so is hitting him with the full burst isn't either.

Isuue might be primary the increased server load because of multiple projectiles.
And currently 110ms between the shots finish a AC10 burst in 220ms few people react that fast. So if your volley is twisted away its the fault of the shooter - because he shots when the target is twisting and he doesn't have a clear sight.

thats not how it works, if you see the opponent and he twists what do you gonna do, wait until he twists back? The one twisting will usually wait until he gets hit. or makes a fake twist so that you start shooting while only a par of your stream ac will actually hit the component he tries to hide. You don't start twisting when you see someone shooting. The experience of playing is what gives you the wisdom to know enemy behavior and to act in advance to what he is doing. you are proactive not reactive.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2016 - 05:17 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

thats not how it works, if you see the opponent and he twists what do you gonna do, wait until he twists back?

yes? why should I waste shots on the right arm when the left side torso is open?
Or at least I would wait when I would play this game more constantly again, currently I would just shoot and I'm luck when I hit the target.

anyhow - the Clan AC should not be on par with IS ACs- end of story. And for the reduced weight the guns are better than they are supposed to be.

Same story with the increased burn duration of those lasers.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 December 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[Van Hoven]

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

two sides of a medal. The accuracy with CACs is usualy higher - means you deal some damage per burst - maybe not full but a salvo is not automatically a miss or hit.

As I've said, cuAcs are good at dealing damage, not killing stuff. I'd prefer either dealing full 15 dmg to a single part on a light squirreling around me then doing 3 dmg somewhere. Thats the point I made. Dealing -some- damage is nice for the stats but is not very meaningful for the gameplay. And getting better at hitting stuff is up to the player. Im in no way l33t haxxor good, not by a long shot, and since I havn't played in a long time I'd say I'm at most decent, but if you are playing regularly hitting with ac5s almost every single time except of reaction shots isnt that hard. Holding your burst for the full duartion on a moving target at 400 to 500 meters is a completely different story, at least for me. And thats only for HITTING, not hitting a single component.

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

So i think the disadvante equals out with the advantage - and when hitting the target isn't a big deal because its slow and cumbersome - so is hitting him with the full burst isn't either.

Again the main problem is not the hitting per se, but the hitting one component. getting dmg vs getting kills or dmg where it actually matters.

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

Isuue might be primary the increased server load because of multiple projectiles.
And currently 110ms between the shots finish a AC10 burst in 220ms few people react that fast. So if your volley is twisted away its the fault of the shooter - because he shots when the target is twisting and he doesn't have a clear sight.

You see the target, target sees you, you shoot, he shoots and twist. half of your dmg negated, his full dmg is in.

Edit: My point is, cuAcs are not strictly better then is acs, even though they weigh less. Their downside is burst, and it is a harsh downside if it comes to a battle between equally skilled opponents. Are cAcs unusable bad? no, but they fullfill a different role then is acs. They are best when the enemy isnt looking at you and you can dps the crap out of him. Is acs are a good trading weapon and far better at that then cAcs would ever be.

Same thing applies to lasers. Due to the shorter burn and ghost heat limitations IS mechs are better at trading damage. Clan mechs shine in prolonged engagements.

The only clear and significant advantage of clan mechs are in my eyes the xl engines. Pgi should really bring them in line.

Edited by Van Hoven, 14 December 2016 - 06:15 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

yes? why should I waste shots on the right arm when the left side torso is open?

reverse question, why should the opponent twist back when he shows you his right arm and realises you aren't shooting at him? Protecting yourself is the initial task, over trying to apply damage and get shot into a vital section. he would better try to stay twisted in and hide somewhere unless he thinks he will win the twist battle.
Alos, he will know you use stream weapons (same goes for longer beamduration alsers) and so try to twist in fire and twist bakc, because it emans you will even if you see his open section not land all shots in it due to twisting.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2016 - 06:23 AM.

[Valhallan]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

reverse question, why should the opponent twist back when he shows you his right arm and relaises you aren't shooting at him? Protecting yourself is the initial task, over trying to apply damage and get shot into a vital section. he would better try to stay twisted in and hide somewhere unless he thinks he will win the twist battle.
Alos, he will know you use stream weapons (same goes for longer beamduration alsers) and so try to twist in fire and twist bakc, because it emans you will even if you see his open section not land all shots in it due to twisting.

Simple because the smart pilot baits the opponent by firing one lone weapon instead of just alpha spamming, and firing the alpha when the opp is twisting in making him unable to take his shot if you use any ballistics/missiles.

[Lily from animove]

Valhallan, on 14 December 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

Simple because the smart pilot baits the opponent by firing one lone weapon instead of just alpha spamming, and firing the alpha when the opp is twisting in making him unable to take his shot if you use any ballistics/missiles.

yes but then you have done the same effect as twisting, avoided the full damage into the same section by a wasted "lure" shot into an irrelevant section. +he can still twist damage away.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2016 - 06:25 AM.

[Valhallan]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2016 - 06:24 AM, said:

yes but then you have done the same effect as twisting, avoided the full damage into the same section by a wasted "lure" shot into an irrelevant section. +he can still twist damage away.

he cannot if you timed your shot properly by firing when he's twisting back to fire his shot, unless your using something like a erll or have a 250+ ms difference

[Karl Streiger]

Arn't we overexaggerate a little bit?
Ususally you are not alone and your target is not alone. In the seldom moments of 1 on 1 when both Mechs are overheated those "tactics" might work.

Van Hoven, on 14 December 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

The only clear and significant advantage of clan mechs are in my eyes the xl engines. Pgi should really bring them in line.

hm didn't said that the Clan weapons are not balanced enough. While I think the first drafts were better, the clan weapons are adequate

I just wanted to point out that they are not so bad that you anybody can say IS OP because they have pinpoint acs, or short beam laser....

maybe I think that Clan Missiles need a change but this is another story.

[Lily from animove]

Valhallan, on 14 December 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

he cannot if you timed your shot properly by firing when he's twisting back to fire his shot, unless your using something like a erll or have a 250+ ms difference

we could totally test this by some 1on1 in the private lobby and see how well you manage to land your ac's all in a section while I try twisting. As long as it isn't a fatty mech you won'T land them all in one location if so twsting is doen very very wrong..

[Van Hoven]

What happens very often is that you step out of cover, take a podshot and go back into cover. Is acs are better at that. I used the 1on1 situation as an example to explain my point about IsAcs in comparison to cAcs, since a 1on1 situation is much simpler then a teamfight. The trading damage point still holds true in every situation I think.

Kmieciu, on 14 December 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

Please do tell, which IS AC would you install?
AC20 for example won't fit on most omnimech, not even Night Gyr or Warhawk because of the fixed endo structure and ferro armor. Only a Dire Wolf and a Hellbringer have the space required.

How about AC10 that nobody ever uses unless the mech has heavy quirks? That weighs the same as C-Gauss and takes 1 slot more (so no way of doing 4xAC10 on a Kodiak)

If it was the other way around, I would swap IS UAC5 for Clan UAC10 on every IS mech I own. 1 slot smaller (LOL) and just 1 tonne heavier. A minor difference since 3 tonnes of UAC10 ammo deals the same damage as 4 tonnes of UAC5 ammo.

Imagine 3xC-UAC10 Jagermech or 4xC-UAC10 King Crab...

I mainly aimed at this statement with my comment. I should use the quote function more (

[Van Hoven]

Karl Streiger, on 14 December 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

maybe I think that Clan Missiles need a change but this is another story.

clan lurms clearly are a bit... undertonned. For srms the tighter spread is important. Man i miss the times the srms had this preset flight pattern where you could almost pinpoint them with the right timing

[Astrocanis]

Lupis Volk, on 13 December 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

I was always under the impression that the "balance" was nearly spot on at times, just that "good" Clan mechs shine better than and there are more of then unlike the "good" IS mechs and that's why there's a image if Clans being better in MWO.

So, your perspective is that because good Clan mechs are better than good IS mechs that there's merely an "image" of Clans being better and that parity has been achieved? LOL.

Good thing the Clans get a HS buff then, because now the "mediocre" clan mechs can now be "good".

[Y E O N N E]

Van Hoven, on 14 December 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

What happens very often is that you step out of cover, take a podshot and go back into cover. Is acs are better at that. I used the 1on1 situation as an example to explain my point about IsAcs in comparison to cAcs, since a 1on1 situation is much simpler then a teamfight. The trading damage point still holds true in every situation I think.

But you can never really bring enough ballistics to competitively do that with IS ACs. What normally happens is you have a single or paired weapon (usually 5 or 10 class) supplemented by Medium lasers. The amount of time require to expose, fire, and return gets you blasted by triple UAC/10 or equivalent in minded UAC/10 and /5. You receive more damage than you put out, and you receive it from further away, too.

The best it gets is either 2xPPC + 2x AC/5 or 2x PPC + 1 x AC/10, both of which are inferior for poke next to 2x cERPPC + 1x cGauss in slots , weight and damage.

[Averen]

Van Hoven, on 14 December 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

It's amazing how people think the burst fire of cAc isnt a big deal. The only way to deal consistent damage to a single body part with burst fire if a: the enemys is coming straight at you or is running straight away from you or b: the enemy is standing still. In every other case (lets say almost all cases if you fight against more experienced players) the damage you do with cAc is spread over at LEAST 2 locations. cAc is good at racking up dmg numbers, IS acs kill stuff. 3ac5 /ultra ac5 jager is devastating. Just shoot, twist, shoot. or stick a bit of your mech out of cover, shoot, move back. Time your shots for when the enemy is facing you if he is twisting.

With cAc you are at a serious disadvantage in a 1on1 situation unless you boat the hell out of them, which only the night gyr, dire and kodiak can do. Thats due to the fact that if boated you can do enough spread dmg to the enemy it still hurts. 2 cuAc10s are hardly worth taking.

I really wish pgi would unlock tech for everyone so we could see what ppl would take.

I'm NOT saying is/clan balance is perfect. I'm saying cAcs are NOT the problem on its own.

Shoot Twist Shoot with an UAC5 jager? Going out and into cover between shots? What are you smoking? That weapon has below 0.75s cooldown.

And in fact CAC's are better at 1v1s, because you can blind the enemy with a constant stream of fire. Besides having longer range, weighting less and taking less slots.

Also lol at 2 cuAc10s, 'hardly worth taking'. Only shows how spoiled you are when playing clan. Those 2 weapons, combined with 2 or 4 erml are already a lot of firepower that beats most IS heavies, especially on range.

Quote

I'm NOT saying is/clan balance is perfect. I'm saying cAcs are NOT the problem on its own.

They are 'a' problem, which is only migitated because most clan ballistic hardpoints aren't great. But when they work, then you get a kodiak.

Edited by Averen, 14 December 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[banana peel]

Sadly all threads on this topic drown in prejudiced opinions of IS and clan fans. And this is so obvious, that it makes potentialy good thread (this started with ok post) not suitable for reading and therefore also a waste of time for those who composed themselves to actually try to make some valid point.

As for me, i have mechs that i like from both sides (dont mind the JF signature, was farming mechbays) and i can say that the game currently has more "good" mechs on IS side, but "best" all around mechs are clan - that became possible mainly due to clan battlemechs, customization of which is now a far bigger advantage for clans than the omnitech. In a way, best builds of KDKs and hunchies are more "optimized" than best builds for omni counterparts.
As a whole, meta decks of clans now have a slight advantage. But at the same time a coordinated IS team still melts a random clan team. Its just that this slight advantage was enough to lure most of good units on the clan side. Incoming 265 tonns of IS deck looks really funny in that perspective.

But i wanted to bring up another aspect of tech balance. I'll put it this way. I would love to have the ability to equip some clan weapons on my IS mechs, such as: spl, ersl, erml, srm, lrm(jk), lbx20, gauss. But! I also would love to equip some of my clan mechs with IS weapons (with required tonns and slots as they are), such as: ac5, uac5, l-laser, lpl, ppc.

I would stuff IS ppc with its 3 slots, 7 tonns, lesser range and velocity in many clan mechs that i own and wouldnt ask for quirks. Because i dont need this goddamn splash 5 dmg in exchange for 4,5 heat. And in my opinion IS lpl is currently the strongest all around weapon in the game (clan spl comes close). While IS mediums without quirks are plain joke. So what i'm trying to say - i find the balance within two techs to be a lot worse than between each other.

p.s. sorry for potato english

Edited by banana peel, 14 December 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[Van Hoven]

Well there is this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...25fc9c38ebab8dd 5 ac5 mauler
this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c13414dc245207 4 ultra ac 5 king crab
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3c672dadd077a46 2 ac5 2 ultra ac5 black widow
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8f6fb9bfaf58a03 3 ultra ac5 jaeger
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dc0c7f8f6a3f7c4 4 ultra ac5 mauler
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c581b56c626ccee 3 ac5 2 ppc cyclops
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...80e7c0162273b8e 2 ultra ac5 2 ppc mar

... to name a few

Averen, on 14 December 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Shoot Twist Shoot with an UAC5 jager? Going out and into cover between shots? What are you smoking? That weapon has below 0.75s cooldown.

And in fact CAC's are better at 1v1s, because you can blind the enemy with a constant stream of fire. Besides having longer range, weighting less and taking less slots.

Also lol at 2 cuAc10s, 'hardly worth taking'. Only shows how spoiled you are when playing clan. Those 2 weapons, combined with 2 or 4 erml are already a lot of firepower that beats most IS heavies, especially on range.



They are 'a' problem, which is only migitated because most clan ballistic hardpoints aren't great. But when they work, then you get a kodiak.

You dip your head out of cover for one shot then go back. if you never do this its easily understandable why you think clan acs are so good. If you cant return fire when shot at with clan acs same thing applies. And well... same thing with shoot twist shoot... yeah, just because you can say things that doesnt make them true, you know? And btw UAC5 has 1.66 cooldown. if you doubletap in the middle of the cooldown time its still ,83. Ok thats close. But why doubletap in the middle? If you dont know is weapons, why comment on them being subpar?

20 points of damage applied to at least 2 sections of the mech isnt much. and uac10s are only usable at stationary targets beyond 400m. Especially with the jam chances you really shouldnt double tap if the uac10s are your main weapon system.

Edited by Van Hoven, 14 December 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Averen]

Van Hoven, on 14 December 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

You dip your head out of cover for one shot then go back. if you never do this its easily understandable why you think clan acs are so good. If you cant return fire when shot at with clan acs same thing applies. And well... same thing with shoot twist shoot... yeah, just because you can say things that doesnt make them true, you know? And btw UAC5 has 1.66 cooldown. if you doubletap in the middle of the cooldown time its still ,83. Ok thats close. But why doubletap in the middle? If you dont know is weapons, why comment on them being subpar?

Mate, don't try to smartass when you got no clue.

First, jagers have quirks, benefit by cooldown modules, have quickfire skills. So no, it's not 1.66/0.83. Not that it would even make a difference to my point, it's just petty bickering.

Secondly, double tap has a delay, IIRC something around 400 ms. So you get maybe a second to actually twist. And that is assuming you use an aimbot, because it would take time to reaim after every shot. Standard human reaction time is already 250ms, additionally to aiming in MWO being accelerated.

And no, you don't dip your head out of fire just for one shot. You do that, then blast as long as possible without getting return fire, trying to blind single mechs in particular with constant fire, and get back into cover. Switch up position if it becomes dangerous.

Going out for one shot each is incredibly stupid with UAC's, that would be 15dmg for a jager, and only allows the enemy to check and aim for your position. That is a strat for alpha based mechs, not DPS based. Frankly, almost everything you are saying is stuff normally based around alpha's.

edit: Also, what is a jager even supposed to protect by twisting? Your ST's are the most vulnerable parts of the mech because of the XL, besides being filled with ammunition!

Quote

20 points of damage applied to at least 2 sections of the mech isnt much. and uac10s are only usable at stationary targets beyond 400m. Especially with the jam chances you really shouldnt double tap if the uac10s are your main weapon system.

Just because you can't aim doesn't mean they are unusuable. And the jam chance doesn't matter at distance at all, because you can just go into cover, waiting for the unjamming.

Having high short time dps is the entire point of UACs, and the higher firerate of double tapping is always worth it, at least for a jager with less jam chance.

Edited by Averen, 14 December 2016 - 10:49 AM.