104 replies to this topic

[Catalina Steiner]

[mod]Just for info, you're right. Moderators did change the topic title.[/mod]

[Quxudica]

Sal Roma, on 14 December 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

So we are all driving around (piloting) advanced weapon systems called mechs... and these mechs have all types of weapons and computer systems to run them and said weapons.... and yet, for some reason, we can't program them to target a specific section on a mech with computerized accuracy?

How does this make any sense?

Edit: to be clear... I am in favor of in game aim bots because computers can aim better then we can, and we are driving around in giant weaponized computers. I'm not talking about snap head shot aimbots.. but let's put more pilot skill into driving these things, and less into turn torso and strafe.... you as a pilot should be able to navigate your mech (looking sideways), and have your mech keep firing while locked on...

BattleTech is the grim far flung future... of the 1980's. Nothing is as advanced as we in 2016 would think it would be because that wasn't the original vision. Everything's a bit more analog than one would think, a bit more clunky, especially in the Inner Sphere.

Funnily enough, while this is purely a case of when the things were created, it's not really a plot hole. The Galaxy has been at nearly constant apocalyptic war which has caused entire technologies, specialties and manufacturing processes have been lost (thus "LosTech") due to this warfare.

[cazidin]

Sure. We have advanced computers in Battletech, in the year 3,000. We also have Human Pilots. Replace the Human Pilot with a Machine and you'll find yourself out of a job, Mercenary! I strongly recommend that you work towards improving your aim, not you specifically, but anyone who feels that they need an aim-bot.

[Davegt27]

in game target prioritization would be a better title

sort of like track while scan with target prioritization

the game already has some aspects of modern combat equipment

taking It further would be a multispectral target indent system combining radar, laser, magnetic and seismic

me I would settle for enhanced imaging

[Alex Morgaine]

razenWing, on 15 December 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Found this online:

"The GAU-8 itself weighs 281 kg (620 lb), but the complete weapon, with feed system and drum, weighs 1,830 kg (4,029 lb) with a maximum ammunition load. It measures 19 ft ½ in (5.81 m) from the muzzle to the rearmost point of the ammunition system, and the ammunition drum alone is 34.5 in (86 cm) in diameter and 71.5 in (1.82 m) long. (*****, 2000, p. 44). The magazine can hold 1,350 rounds, although 1,174 is the more normal load-out. Muzzle velocity with armor-piercing incendiary (API) ammunition is 3,250 ft/s (990 m/s)."

So my point is, if you like a 2 ton machine guns the size of a locust (And keep in mind, this is the spec of ONE system, not 4 that you can carry in the game. Then sure, you can have that instead of the tier 5 weapon we have now. And why are we doing a direct translation of armor from IRL to fictional world? You are assuming that what we have is exactly what future human will have. Well, that's a resounding no. Future human have 1500 additional years, and they STILL only figure out to put a piece of metal of their machines as armor? I don't think so.

(Though I tend to agree that missiles are probably going to be the main weapon of choice for future conflicts, and would technically be mighty boring. Though we do have to take into account of the lore reference of advance camouflage deployed on these mechs against electronic/heat/optical targeting to render missiles semi-useless)

That seems more like a machine gun and a ton and a half of ammo, or a ton plus built in case. Assuming 4000lbs = 2 game tons.

[-Rasalom-]

Davegt27, on 15 December 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

me I would settle for enhanced imaging

That's another thing... we have the computers, we have the HUD with targeting info, etc... why can't it render a computer generated landscape while it is locking onto the mechs... I mean we can do better thermal/ Nightvision...

[Tarl Cabot]

In lore, mechwarriors do not have the instant aiming that we do. Just because you put your target hairs over a target never meant all weapons could be fired that instance.

Quote

2 - The Main Control Stick. This is the primary control for targeting the 'Mech's weapons systems. It also controls the 'Mech's arms. It has firing triggers for each of the target interlock circuits (TIC) - up to as many as six triggers.

Weapons aiming is achieved by the MechWarrior using this stick to manipulate the reticule on the primary view screen HUD. This does not happen in a "click the desired target and the 'Mech than tracks it (with the reticule or otherwise) for you" way - the MechWarrior must use the reticule to track their desired target until they pull the trigger(s) for weapons fire. BattleMechs are explicitly programmed to NOT choose any target, or track any target. BattleMechs only "track" the reticule. This means that the reticule does not indicate to the MechWarrior where the 'Mech's individual weapons are currently aimed - rather, the reticule indicates to the 'Mech what it should be trying to aim it's weapons at.

https://mwomercs.com...y-an-education/

Quote

10.1 Battle Computer/Targeting & Tracking system
The Battle Computer ("BC," located in the cockpit) controls, coordinates, and monitors all weapons Targeting and Tracking (T&T) systems, and It does so by taking inputs from the DI computer and the MechWarrior. It is the BC that makes sure any given weapon is aimed at what the MechWarrior is indicating with their reticule. It is the BC that does the targeting calculations based upon sensor inputs - calculations which result in the positional data that is used to physically align each individual direct fire weapon, or give firing coordinates to homing weapons, in order to hit whatever the MechWarrior is tracking with the reticule at any given range. The BC also controls the Target Interlock Circuits (TIC's) of the 'Mech.

BattleMech Targeting and Tracking systems consist more than just the BC - the T&T system also includes a network of sophisticated sensors, sub-computers, and complex software programming, and each individual direct-fire weapon mounted in a 'Mech has as a part of it's mass and bulk components that allow the BC, via the T&T system to individually physically aim that weapon, beyond the mobility of whatever part of a 'Mech it may be mounted in. Any homing weapons systems (LRMs, for example) are also coordinated with or by the BC. These computers, software, and physical weapons alignment systems are what allow a BattleMech to automatically change the point at which it's weapons-fire will converge in order to attempt to hit what it's pilot is tracking with the reticule on their HUD.

The BC doesn't just control a BattleMech's weapons systems - it also serves to coordinate the overall movement of the BattleMech by making sure the MechWarrior's various commands have priority, and it also is the "gateway" that filters the data from the DI computer, converting that data into information readouts that are useful for the MechWarrior so that the MechWarrior does not need to interpret it.

There are many types of sensor that the BC handles - thermal imaging, light amplification, radar, laser tracking, uv tracking, and magnetic anomaly inputs are generally used as primary sensors, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers, microwave, visual tracking, and many others, depending on what equipment a 'Mech mounts. However, because the BC filters, prioritizes, and compresses this information MechWarriors are not overwhelmed with raw data. Normally this data is displayed on the cockpit HUD displays or on the Neurohelmet HUD with all the various selected sensor information synthesized into a single streamlined viewing mode, with important things tagged by the computer with graphic icons onscreen.

Sensor readouts can either overlap a target or reveal an area. For example, thermal sensors display a green (cold) to white (hot) image of the battlefield. The MechWarrior can opt to display other 'Mechs with thermal imaging and leave the battlefield in true colors. Extra sensor readings can be added or to subtracted from the displays as the MechWarrior wishes. Normally the battle computer will synthesize all of the various sensor inputs onto the display, although in a simplified form.

Identify Friend/Foe (IFF) is a key ability of the BC/T&T system. It eases the burden of identifying targets for MechWarriors in battle conditions, especially in poor visibility. Friendly and enemy 'Mechs are tagged with differing graphic tokens. IFF broadcast beacons are used by the BattleMech's Targeting and Tracking system to avoid accidental missile fire at a friendly 'Mechs, though the system can be manually overridden.

BattleMech sensory processors and programming stand out in their ability to recognize other units and classify them by type and as friend or foe. Virtually all BC T&T suites can tell what type of unit is being detected, and can even make educated "guesses" at what variant that unit is. The system is surprisingly intuitive and at times it will present an interesting "guess." For example, the famous Inner Sphere naming of the Clan Timber Wolf OmniMech. The first Inner Sphere BattleMech to encounter one "saw" it as a cross between two designs it already knew - the Marauder and Catapult designs, thus the name "Mad Cat" was born.

BattleMechs can also share some sensor data. Specialized C3, C3i, and other hardware takes this to new heights, but all BattleMechs can at the least handle basic sensory data from friendly 'Mechs in order to pinpoint enemy positions, or share more detailed information. This is usually done with a separate communications channel, and can be difficult to maintain during battle.

In a pinch, the BC can stand in for the DI computer, but this reduces the amount of information gathered and degrades the overall performance of the BattleMech to about 60% of normal. This translates to 60% of the sensors giving "old" or inaccurate data and weapons systems being unable to track and accurately hit whatever the pilot is indicating.

10.2 Diagnostic Interpretation Computer
The DI computer is the "highest" managing computer in the a BattleMech - it coordinates all of the varying computer systems in a BattleMech. All other interpretive computers and all sensors are subordinated to the DI computer. Even though the BC is the channel for MechWarrior commands that can and do over-ride the DI computer's programmed routines, the BC and it's system are still otherwise sub-ordinate to the DI's management.

The DI consists of a network of distributed computers that monitor and coordinate the majority of the internal functions and components of a BattleMech. As noted earlier, the Internal Structures, Armor, Actuators, Myomers, and other components are wired with sensors and data/control lines. The DI computer uses this network to monitor the health and status of all components in this network. In doing this, the DI tracks the 'Mech's state of readiness and feeds this to the Battle Damage Assessment computer (BDA) which in turn translates and displays this information on readouts for the MechWarrior.

However, the DI handles more than simple status assessment. The DI also uses its network of lines as a back-up data feed to other components. For example, if a BattleMech's hand is dangling by a piece of armor, the DI can determine the status of the finger actuators through data lines in the armor. While the BattleMech would not be able to do much with the hand, it would be able to communicate with it. This capability allows BattleMechs to function even as they suffer from massive internal damage. The DI computer itself is quite redundant and damage resistant. The DI locates some key hardware in the cockpit, but the rest of its hardware is scattered throughout the BattleMech nearer to systems the DI hardware controls. These sub-processing units are setup very redundantly and are capable of managing systems for other damaged DI sub-systems. For example, DI computers located in the engine might wind up handling leg actuators after a penetrating shot lobotomizes the DI processors in the legs. It is the DI, via sensors attached to the ammo bins in a 'Mech, that activates the automated pilot ejection system in the case of an ammunition explosion.

The DI can stand in for a damaged Battle Computer, but the 'Mech operates at about 70% of it's normal effectiveness.

10.2.1 Manager
The DI computer manages all of the systems in a BattleMech. All 'Mech components have their own controlling sub-computers which are brought together by the DI system. The DI, for example, sends commands to actuator MCUs in order to promote smooth limb motions. Each weapon system sub-computer will send it's state of readiness or malfunction to the DI computer. More advanced DI computers will indicate to the MechWarrior what the cause of the problem is and try to fix the malfunction, all with no input from the MechWarrior. The DI also keeps the 'Mech from damaging itself. For instance, it will cut back on systems that generate heat when the 'Mech suffers from Heat sink damage or is in a very hot environment. It is also capable of overriding the "common sense" programming of the component level systems. When the MechWarrior demands it, the DI will run the engine hot even if the engine control computer is trying to keep the engine cool. It is the DI computer, as manager, that coordinates all the systems called for When a MechWarrior pushes the throttle forward - it is the DI that controls the engine power, the gyro, and coordinates the actuators. When a BattleMech takes damage, the DI is what re-configures leaking Heat Sinks and coolant lines and bypasses severed Myomers and tries to re-route power to disconnected weapons.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 December 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[RestosIII]

Sal Roma, on 15 December 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

That's another thing... we have the computers, we have the HUD with targeting info, etc... why can't it render a computer generated landscape while it is locking onto the mechs... I mean we can do better thermal/ Nightvision...

If where going to talk about vision modes, I have one request.

I want predator vision back.

[Koniving]

Tristan Winter, on 14 December 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

The whole idea behind Battletech is that people don't trust machines to work independently of humans (same as the Warhammer 40,000 universe and several other popular sci-fi universes), so the abilities of the mechs are rather restricted. Mechs can do certain things on their own, but they require human pilots, to prevent robots from destroying all humans, basically.

Technically.... They aren't worried about robots destroying all humans so much as hacking. Even Neuro Helms, the pinnacle of security, can be hacked given enough time and what autonomous robots do exist in Battletech -- which -- can be hacked from as far away as 120 meters provided the hacker can hit it with a device fired from a bolt action rifle.

A robot with sufficient AI to make decisions up to and including the ability to kill. In this scenario, an air raid has left them pretty much ready to shoot anything that moves, though.


Also for anyone curious, aliens also do exist but only one mostly unspoken species has the intelligence to use Battlemechs (not natively)... beyond that they only go up to neanderthal primate. Oh, and mech-eating dinosaurs exist.


The 'Mechs have varying degrees of target and tracking systems which help with aiming. However combat in real life and video games are very different and Battletech acknowledges this. In BT, you can target things other than the enemies: Trees to cut them down. Cliffsides to cause avalanches. Walls to shower concrete, brick, wood or metal down on things below. So many ideas and things that can be done that go well beyond 'shoot the bad guy' which are far more effective.

There is also the issue that most of Battletech weapons do not actually converge short of those on the arms. You can manual indicate a desired range or go with the automatic ranges and the Diagnostic Interpretation Computer in conjunction with your Battle Computer (if your mech is so equipped) will have your mech contort to make it happen. If you want your three torso lasers to hit the same exact place, they had to fire in sequence and your mech's body adjusted on its own to make each one happen at where you indicated.

Interestingly, this is why minimum accuracy range rules for autocannons exist on torso mounts but not on arm mounts (because arms can pivot and aim anywhere but torso weapons are locked to the torso without the ability to pivot unless on a turret), and thus why Clans would use arm-based autocannons even if it means they can't have functioning elbows (crucial for getting back up quickly and efficiently from falls), as torso-based ACs could not converge unless set to do so at a specific range before leaving the repair bay. It is also why the Adder uses arm-based PPCs instead of torso based, so that both weapons can converge on a single point.

Side note:
Having lower arm actuators did not have anything to do with 'left/right' arm movement; that's upper actuator and shoulder actuator combined. Lower arm actuators gave 'elbows', allowing for a second pivoting point for up/down movement to allow for dynamic 'hip shots' as well as 'extended arm shots', made delivering melee more comprehensive, allowed for grappling at close range, for climbing King Kong style (yes you can do this in Battletech; unlike MWO where the tallest mech is almost 18 meters high, BT's tallest mech until well after 3065 is the Executioner at 14.4 meters tall; some argue 15 meters for the Atlas but most accounts have it between 13 and 14 meters; that's shorter than MWO's original scale Centurion), but most importantly having elbows allowed for the possibility of some minor self-repair in the field provided you also had hands.

----

This said: Targeting computers for the Clans weren't just insanely heavy machines.
The computer was probably the lightest part of what you really add: limited pivots to torso weapons, effectively allowing all of your weapons to converge at virtually any range, greatly increasing your potential to accurately hit similar locations and thusly increasing accurate ranges and likelihood to hit. Note: You couldn't choose the size of your TC; there was one size per weight class.

Clans have the ability to go fully autonomous and probably wouldn't have to worry about being hacked. However, in their society the shame and dishonor that would bring to you would result in... being stripped of your wealth, your family, your right to reproduce or to have your DNA used to produce new 'TrueBorn', your BloodName, your birthrights, your career. Worse, this shame would also rob your immediate family of all the same. In an offense as great as this, everyone directly related to you would suffer the same fate even if not even born or 'produced' yet.

Edited by Koniving, 16 December 2016 - 01:15 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Logic is LosTech in this universe. Also what's the fun in making the pin point assload damage alpha strike even more viable now that we can aim specifically on what places to hit

[cazidin]

Koniving, on 15 December 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Oh, and mech-eating dinosaurs exist.

Battletech suddenly became approximately 49% more awesome.

[Elessar]

Sal Roma, on 14 December 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

So we are all driving around (piloting) advanced weapon systems called mechs... and these mechs have all types of weapons and computer systems to run them and said weapons.... and yet, for some reason, we can't program them to target a specific section on a mech with computerized accuracy?

How does this make any sense?

Edit: to be clear... I am in favor of in game aim bots because computers can aim better then we can, and we are driving around in giant weaponized computers. I'm not talking about snap head shot aimbots.. but let's put more pilot skill into driving these things, and less into turn torso and strafe.... you as a pilot should be able to navigate your mech (looking sideways), and have your mech keep firing while locked on...

If we come with realism, there wouldn't be any battlemechs first place.
Huge Bidepal robots that walk on 2 legs are just one thing:
A huge vulnerable target

Even the quadrupedal battlemechs, which are a minority in the battletech universe, are a better weapon system concept, than bipedal battlemechs (after all they aren't as large of a target, can lower their legs to have additional cover and also still retain more of their mobility, when they lose one leg)

Realistically speaking however, there would be no good reason to go away from tanks, hovertanks and individual soldiers armed with armor piercing weapons (like guided missiles and the like), as they make much worse target than a battlemech
(in addition to this probably autonomous drones armed with weapons and perhaps autonomous ground vehicles)

Edited by Elessar, 16 December 2016 - 06:10 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 16 December 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

Logic is LosTech in this universe. Also what's the fun in making the pin point assload damage alpha strike even more viable now that we can aim specifically on what places to hit

That's why it needs to be toned down by adding in a circle error probable, aka a cone of fire that increases or decreases with movement. Giving the OP what they want would simply be locking the aim location onto the CT. then if the player wanted you turn off targeting assist and target manually for placed shots like we have now. think of it like 3rd person view. it's there but you don't use it. wink wink.... or do you...?

The clan targeting computer would reduce the CEP giving back its intended function. What the op is asking for is not an unreasonable change to MWO. Mech durability and PP alpha shots are a problem suppressing TTK making power creep much much worse. Changes to targeting is the only way to add more tech and advance the time line so PGI can make more money selling mechs.

[Roughneck45]

The same reason for every logic question ever asked about this universe.

"something something battletech"

[Davegt27]

Tarl is this info come from the battle tech rules ?

Quote

2 - The Main Control Stick. This is the primary control for targeting the 'Mech's weapons systems. It also controls the 'Mech's arms. It has firing triggers for each of the target interlock circuits (TIC) - up to as many as six triggers.

Weapons aiming is achieved by the MechWarrior using this stick to manipulate the reticule on the primary view screen HUD. This does not happen in a "click the desired target and the 'Mech than tracks it (with the reticule or otherwise) for you" way - the MechWarrior must use the reticule to track their desired target until they pull the trigger(s) for weapons fire. BattleMechs are explicitly programmed to NOT choose any target, or track any target. BattleMechs only "track" the reticule. This means that the reticule does not indicate to the MechWarrior where the 'Mech's individual weapons are currently aimed - rather, the reticule indicates to the 'Mech what it should be trying to aim it's weapons at.

[Koniving]

Tombstoner, on 16 December 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

That's why it needs to be toned down by adding in a circle error probable, aka a cone of fire that increases or decreases with movement.

Simpler method, demonstrated by War Thunder...
Pure Pinpoint aiming... affected by your movement (upward/downward inclines, suspension, accelerating and decelerating all jerk your aim around, as your shots will always go where your barrel points...

Great examples fairly early in; but pro cannon-fire dodging can be found between 4 and 5 minutes in.

Which does exist in MWO already... but ONLY in third person. As the aim is drawn from the cockpit.


In first person this does not exist because the camera is perfectly smooth and thusly, there is no sway or affecting factors.
Also since mechs don't tilt in general in MWO... there isn't much of a way to pronounce this effect without some more changes to movement code.

[-Rasalom-]

Tarl Cabot, on 15 December 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:

he MechWarrior can opt to display other 'Mechs with thermal imaging and leave the battlefield in true colors. Extra sensor readings can be added or to subtracted from the displays as the MechWarrior wishes.

Yes! Something like this. I want to be able to control what sensor information I see. If I want to see Thermal in a cold climate, then the mech should light up like christmas lights against a cold backdrop. Night vision shouldn't make everything dark... the computer should be giving me a rendered surroundings that are easy to see (if that's what I want).

[El Bandito]

Sal Roma, on 15 December 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

That's another thing... we have the computers, we have the HUD with targeting info, etc... why can't it render a computer generated landscape while it is locking onto the mechs... I mean we can do better thermal/ Nightvision...

Enhanced imaging will basically render any sort of concealment, such as tree branches and leaves, moot. People would be using such a convenient image mode most of the time on many maps--like the early predator vision we had in MWO. Sucks the flavor out of the map.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 December 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[-Rasalom-]

El Bandito, on 16 December 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Enhanced imaging will basically render any sort of concealment, such as tree branches and leaves, moot. People would be using such a convenient image mode most of the time on many maps--like the early predator vision we had in MWO. Sucks the flavor out of the map.

Except then it gives devs the ability to add mech enhancements to counter it.... gives us more variable load outs and more options in how we gear our mechs..

[Corrado]

Sal Roma, on 14 December 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

So we are all driving around (piloting) advanced weapon systems called mechs... and these mechs have all types of weapons and computer systems to run them and said weapons.... and yet, for some reason, we can't program them to target a specific section on a mech with computerized accuracy?

How does this make any sense?

Edit: to be clear... I am in favor of in game aim bots because computers can aim better then we can, and we are driving around in giant weaponized computers. I'm not talking about snap head shot aimbots.. but let's put more pilot skill into driving these things, and less into turn torso and strafe.... you as a pilot should be able to navigate your mech (looking sideways), and have your mech keep firing while locked on...

but you can roll with a skillcrow / skilldog if you urge that gameplay.