385 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

After like years of this imbalance, and reading 100's of replies, if not thousands, I have been convinced the XL engine for BOTH techs needs to be nerfed. The SIM is hurt because of the XL is the strongest reason for this. The aptly named "Laser barf" or "laser vomit" is the best example of how XL engines hurt the sim but also the over speed and agility of mechs.

Then add durability to the Inner Sphere versions of XL and Standard to balance out for the no blow Clantech XL version, AND EFFECTIVELY HIGHER SPEED AND AGILITY, which further adds to Clantech durability and offensive potential.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Lightfoot]

If IS XL engines lost their vulnerability Inner Sphere mechs would lose their elite level quirks since that is why most get great structure quirks. They would keep some weapon range quirks, but you would see IS and Clan mechs getting close to the same quirks.

I don't think PGI will change the Lore though. They rarely change Lore, except for the Gauss Rifle charge-up of course which is not from the Lore, not canon.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Lightsfoot,
PGI has changed lore, and doesnt Implement all lore,
ADR Flamer for example,

also all OmniMechs should be able to Mount JJ / ECM, but cant here,
also if Engine Crits where implemented IS and C XLs would be much closer,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 December 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

also if Engine Crits where implemented IS and C XLs would be much closer,

Everybody keeps saying this, but it isn't true.

Crits would either happen so infrequently that the torso (including CT) goes boom before three crits get made, or they would happen so frequently that everybody dies without actually loosing a torso. In between, the crits might as well not matter.

It's a silly, silly mechanic.

[Tarogato]

Voted NO.

There are too many factors that can be addressed before needing to touch engine balance. Heatsinks and weapons are still imbalanced in favour of clans. It wasn't always this way, which means that PGI can fix it. But they won't because they're thick as molasses in winter.

[Kuaron]

The binary ST=dead mechanic for IS XL taken from the tabletop as an interpretation of a destroyed engine after 3 crits, leaving out on crits to engines in general, is a very artificial and unelegant solution in the first place. It also doesn’t fit a bit in a computer game based around hitpoints.

Proposal:

1) Instead of a binary death effect on (1st or 2nd) ST destruction, an ST destruction should deal damage (yes, the thing counted in hitpoints!) to the CT and possibly the remaining ST, Clan XL 33% less than IS XL. Two destroyes STs should kill the CT anyway, but one would leave an IS structure red and a Clan structure merely orange.

2) Structure buffs should be tied to engines, giving standard engines a reason to exist. Even Clan ones. An STD (IS and Clan) would give a massive CT structure buff, an IS XL a small buff to all three torso compnents, a Clan XL no structure buff at all, but it already is the best mix of reduced weight and durability and resistance to ST destruction.

This combination should work.
What do you think?

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Everybody keeps saying this, but it isn't true.

Crits would either happen so infrequently that the torso (including CT) goes boom before three crits get made, or they would happen so frequently that everybody dies without actually loosing a torso. In between, the crits might as well not matter.

It's a silly, silly mechanic.

accidentally, i have mixed feelings about the Engine Crits,
that means if you have AS7 with open CT can die instantly to any mech with 1MG,
its odd,

still though i still think IS and Clan XLs should work the same,
then Buff STD Engines, with Bonus Structure,

[Big Tin Man]

Didn't read the whole thread. My $0.02 is that IS XL should survive a ST loss, but at a MASSIVE penalty. Something along the lines of 60% movement speed reduction and 60% reduction in heat capacity. This would effectively kill the mech if it was in a firefight, but not necessarily if it could find cover.

I don't dare say this could be linked to an energy draw mechanic, but it could...

[Johnny Z]

Big Tin Man, on 16 December 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Didn't read the whole thread. My $0.02 is that IS XL should survive a ST loss, but at a MASSIVE penalty. Something along the lines of 60% movement speed reduction and 60% reduction in heat capacity. This would effectively kill the mech if it was in a firefight, but not necessarily if it could find cover.

I don't dare say this could be linked to an energy draw mechanic, but it could...

See this makes XL's a must have for everyone and ignores all the draw backs to the entire game that XL engines bring. Lower TTK, hurts the sim because 75 ton mechs running around like belerinnas(spelled right?) and the rest.

Got to bring Xl's more in line with standards. XL's shoud be an upgrade to standards in performance sure, but its to much so as is.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 05:34 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Big Tin Man, on 16 December 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Didn't read the whole thread. My $0.02 is that IS XL should survive a ST loss, but at a MASSIVE penalty. Something along the lines of 60% movement speed reduction and 60% reduction in heat capacity. This would effectively kill the mech if it was in a firefight, but not necessarily if it could find cover.

I don't dare say this could be linked to an energy draw mechanic, but it could...

So a Clan XL missing two engine crit slots receives only 20% heat/movement penalty but if an IS XL loses three engine crits it is hit with 3x the penalty of the cXL?

I will say this, Davions have been louder than usual about this, likely cause they are no longer fighting actual neighbors with the same tech (both friendly and unfriendly) but now only fight Clans and their tech.....

/winks...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 December 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Rushmoar]

I would love to see that when an IS XL engine losses a side torso, your legs stop moving. You can still torso twist and shoot but your legs are frozen in place.

Or treat it as if one was legged and had a top speed of 40kph and you would run hotter too.
Just a thought.

Edited by Rushmoar, 16 December 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[Mystere]

Sigh! How often must it be said that trying to achieve balance by following a methodology of the form:

A_Clan = A_IS, where "A" is some equipment type

is not going to work until you make everything exactly the same.

Why not instead highlight their differences? Why not give the Clans, for example, more sensitive but "individualistic" sensors (i.e. no data sharing) while keeping IS sensors "shareable" just as they are now?

Yes, it will not be easy. But, it will add more variety and flavor to a game that sorely needs it.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 16 December 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

Sigh! How often must it be said that trying to achieve balance by following a methodology of the form:

A_Clan = A_IS, where "A" is some equipment type

is not going to work until you make everything exactly the same.

Why not instead highlight their differences? Why not give the Clans, for example, more sensitive but "individualistic" sensors (i.e. no data sharing) while keeping IS sensors "shareable" just as they are now?

Yes, it will not be easy. But, it will add more variety and flavor to a game that sorely needs it.

This kind of thing I can get behind. I'm not for 10v12, but I like this.

[FupDup]

Mystere, on 16 December 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

Sigh! How often must it be said that trying to achieve balance by following a methodology of the form:

A_Clan = A_IS, where "A" is some equipment type

is not going to work until you make everything exactly the same.

Why not instead highlight their differences? Why not give the Clans, for example, more sensitive but "individualistic" sensors (i.e. no data sharing) while keeping IS sensors "shareable" just as they are now?

Yes, it will not be easy. But, it will add more variety and flavor to a game that sorely needs it.

You're using a different definition of equal than most other people are. You're assuming that "equal" means that IS weapon A does 3.0 DPS and the Clan version also does 3.0 DPS or something like that.

Highlighting differences so that one faction is good at X while the other faction is good at Y still means that they're equal in their overall value or chance of winning.

[Johnny Z]

FupDup, on 16 December 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

You're using a different definition of equal than most other people are. You're assuming that "equal" means that IS weapon A does 3.0 DPS and the Clan version also does 3.0 DPS or something like that.

Highlighting differences so that one faction is good at X while the other faction is good at Y still means that they're equal in their overall value or chance of winning.

The weapons are fairly balanced now. Any imbalance with equipment and weapons isn't showing under these circumstances. Its all about the engines, durability, speed, agility at the moment.

[Y E O N N E]

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The weapons are fairly balanced now. Any imbalance with equipment and weapons isn't showing under these circumstances. Its all about the engines, durability, speed, agility at the moment.

They aren't, and the state of the weapons directly impacts all of those variables you just mentioned.

Like, seriously, pick a range bracket. Any range bracket. Tell me what you think the optimal IS buid is, and I will show you a Clan build that makes it blush.

[Johnny Z]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

They aren't, and the state of the weapons directly impacts all of those variables you just mentioned.

Like, seriously, pick a range bracket. Any range bracket. Tell me what you think the optimal IS buid is, and I will show you a Clan build that makes it blush.

I really think the speed a Omni mech can get into position/range let go and then vanish is more of the problem here than it appears. The Inner Sphere shorter burn times are really powerful.

There may be certain weapons like guass or ERPPC that are not perfectly balanced though.

This is the point balance is at. Its close but there are a couple issues that effect everything else.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 07:29 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

They aren't, and the state of the weapons directly impacts all of those variables you just mentioned.

Like, seriously, pick a range bracket. Any range bracket. Tell me what you think the optimal IS buid is, and I will show you a Clan build that makes it blush.

400M


I need a better mid range Clam

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 December 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I really think the speed a Omni mech can get into position let go and then vanish is more of the problem here than it appears.

Not really. The TBR, EBJ, HBR, and MDD barely move any faster than the best builds on the BK, Jester, and RFL. It's less than a 6 kph difference, which is not enough to impact the game. The WHM moves at or near the same speed as the NTG (within 4 kph), so same story.

The bigger deal is the fact that you can:

A.) bring more guns, longer range guns, faster damaging guns per slot and per ton at every range bracket, meaning they can either match IS firepower and have phenomenal heat efficiency or exceed IS firepower and have similar heat efficiency, and

B.) that the Clan 'Mech can always focus down a side torso, that has less hitpoints than the CT, to pop the IS 'Mech.

Mcgral18, on 16 December 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

400M


I need a better mid range Clam

6x cMPL alone beats anything the IS can toss out at 400 meters.

[Johnny Z]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not really. The TBR, EBJ, HBR, and MDD barely move any faster than the best builds on the BK, Jester, and RFL. It's less than a 6 kph difference, which is not enough to impact the game. The WHM moves at or near the same speed as the NTG (within 4 kph), so same story.

The bigger deal is the fact that you can:

A.) bring more guns, longer range guns, faster damaging guns per slot and per ton at every range bracket, meaning they can either match IS firepower and have phenomenal heat efficiency or exceed IS firepower and have similar heat efficiency, and

B.) that the Clan 'Mech can always focus down a side torso, that has less hitpoints than the CT, to pop the IS 'Mech.



6x cMPL alone beats anything the IS can toss out at 400 meters.

Ok but I am looking at it from a standard engine point of view. Inner Sphere mechs with a slow standard can exchange fire with Clan mechs. The main weakness here is the massive speed differences.

Its somewhat like poking vrs a light as an extreme example. Good luck if the light is good.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 07:33 PM.