385 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@Bagheera:

I'm not going to bother quoting asinine strawman arguments.

Live in the real world. They're different games and it's as simple as that.

No matter how hard you want it, they will never be the same.

So, to all the TT fanboys and lore-mongers: Just stop.

[Elessar]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

...

but when you have the XL discussion suddenly we have to Follow TT Rules to a T?
even though they dont Apply here in this FPS being MWO? TT has Engine Crits, MWO doesnt,
so you keep Bringing up TT Engine Crit Rules that Dont Apply to this MechWarrior Game,

...

But a fact is:
In TT, XL engines were balanced to a degree.
Yes, a clan mech wouldn't get blown up by a side torso destruction.
But still, with +10 heat generation, it would be severely crippled if a side torso with an XL engine blew up
(making a Std engine still a good choice for a clanner, over an XL engine)

In MWO however it is:
If an IS mech takes an XL engine, it has a lot of risk to its reward (i.e. the risk, of getting instantly killed as soon as a side torso blows up)
A Clanner however has only reward and no risk connected with his XL engines

With other words, tabletop was more balanced when it comes to XL engines.

MWO balance would profit as well if mechanisms would be implemented that increase the risk of clanners when a side torso with an XL engine is taken out.
Either this, or move away from lore even further, by removing the instakill of IS mechs when a side torso with an XL engine is blown up. Then both sides have all reward and no risk connected to XL engines

Edited by Elessar, 17 December 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[Mystere]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 17 December 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

@Bagheera:

I'm not going to bother quoting asinine strawman arguments.

Live in the real world. They're different games and it's as simple as that.

No matter how hard you want it, they will never be the same.

So, to all the TT fanboys and lore-mongers: Just stop.

So why don't we just bring this to it's logical conclusion by making all Mechs, weapons, and other equipment exactly the same to each other and just "differentiate" between them via "skins", color, and sound effects? I mean, the only things that makes this are Mechwarrior game are the names and general shapes of Mechs, right?

There, 100% balance achieved and we will never ever worry about it again.

Well, at least until someone finds another balance issue to whine and cry about, like teamwork.

Edited by Mystere, 18 December 2016 - 12:27 AM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Mystere, on 18 December 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

So why don't we just bring this to it's logical conclusion by making all Mechs, weapons, and other equipment exactly the same to each other and just "differentiate" between them via "skins", color, and sound effects? I mean, the only things that makes this are Mechwarrior game are the names and general shapes of Mechs, right?

There, 100% balance achieved and we will never ever worry about it again.

Well, at least until someone finds another balance issue to whine and cry about, like teamwork.

You do know that "not same" also doesn't mean "not related", right?

This is more asinine ridiculousness.

[Jingseng]

And in the real world, there is no such thing as balance.

[Mystere]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 18 December 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

You do know that "not same" also doesn't mean "not related", right?

This is more asinine ridiculousness.

My point is that these discussions will never end until everything is exactly the same, or until PGI releases the math/science behind their "balancing" decisions and the entire player base agrees 100%. An asteroid wiping out humanity has a higher chance of happening than that -- the game shutting down permanently excluded of course.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Mystere, on 18 December 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

My point is that these discussions will never end until everything is exactly the same, or until PGI releases the math/science behind their "balancing" decisions and the entire player base agrees 100%. An asteroid wiping out humanity has a higher chance of happening than that -- the game shutting down permanently excluded of course.

Ok, well that's not how it came across.

To this well reasoned response, I say:

We don't need 100% consensus. I'd be satisfied with a super-majority (66%) or even a simple majority (51%).

In fact, we may already have this amongst the player base, just not correlating with PGI's direction.

[Sixpack]

I say no. A rework of XL engines will also require a rework of all mechs currently in game with the quirk system.

This is pretty bad if you think about the new skill tree (which will add more complexity) coming in febuary.

Balancing out the whole thing under the new paradigm will take another 3-4 years of people constantly complaining and no new tech being added.

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 December 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Poll Link-

I voted 'yes'.

IMO:

MWO is at a point where better balance should already be had. Not a jab at PGI, because BT is complex=coverting a TT to a FPS is complex+lack of experience/talent/blah blah blah....


SO:

Buff IS-XL to where St destruction doesnt kill you unless you lose both.

Clan-lore-superiority is had via weight and space savings.

---BUT ALSO BUFF STD ENGINES---

STD should do something like Structure Buff based on a % of tonnage. EX: 100 tonner with STD engine gets 100 CT structure, 75 ST structure. 30 tonner gets 30/23

SINGLE HEAT SINKS give a +5 structure PER SINK. We can haz Tank.

Clans trend to glass cannon that hits first via range with more speed.IS trends tanky and DPS, sometimes better agility. Upcoming Skill Tree would sort this out.

Also: EQUALIZE ALL IS and CLAN WEAPON DAMAGE. (except for ER-LL, keep range, duration = 1 second, damage = 5).
Remove UAC RNG Jams. Double tap = x3 cooldown. *tactical usage*

Clans keep a *SLIGHT* advantage. Easier to balance.

Jingseng, on 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

And in the real world, there is no such thing as balance.

True but BT/MWO is not real word.

[Revis Volek]

RestosIII, on 14 December 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yes. I honestly believe that ATM, IS XL shouldn't be an instant death from a ST loss. Just make it have a larger penalty that Clan XL in regards to movement penalties.

Honestly, this might be extreme. But i think that what happens when you get legged should really be what happens when you get half your engine blown out. 40 kph and sluggish movement.

When you are legged, you should be dragging that sucker at a whopping 25KPH whatever. I feel that legged mechs move a bit to fast and Clan mechs with an engine on the way out really just get a slight slap on the wrist if they are left with most of the weapons or at least the primary ones.

Really, if my dreams were to come true, once you blew a ST off a Clan mech it would just start a timer until Engine death. Give the Mech 2 minutes to get his work done before his engine goes critical and blows.

Edited by Revis Volek, 18 December 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Jingseng, on 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

And in the real world, there is no such thing as balance.

Good thing this is a video game

Sixpack, on 18 December 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

I say no. A rework of XL engines will also require a rework of all mechs currently in game with the quirk system.

This is pretty bad if you think about the new skill tree (which will add more complexity) coming in febuary.

Balancing out the whole thing under the new paradigm will take another 3-4 years of people constantly complaining and no new tech being added.

If the IS and Clan have a similar baseline (engines not being cXL>>>>>isXL>>STD), and the new system is coming out, start from a blank slate

Trash Tier mechs will still need GodQuirks, but the baseline required quirks can go.
New tech doesn't bring balance. The old trash tech doesn't magically become balanced if something new comes along
Why do people think that?

[InspectorG]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Why do people think that?

"More is better" syndrome.

Likely also that they think(romanticize) later BT was 'balanced'?

[Mawai]

Clan and IS mechs need to balanced. I think PGI's philosophy of "balanced but different" should be used wherever possible to retain the different feel of running clan mechs. XL engines are one of the factors that can be used to address these balance issues while retaining the different feel.

It is important to realize though that lore then becomes irrelevant since in lore clan technology WAS superior and that WAS the starting point that PGI used for determining the initial clan weapon implementations. The entire balance effort since clans were introduced has been trying to tone down the clan tech to achieve something resembling balance between IS and clans. At the present time clans are probably 10 to 50% more effective than IS depending on chassis and loadout with a few outliers where IS mechs may outperform clans.

[Johnny Z]

Jingseng, on 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

And in the real world, there is no such thing as balance.

If it was my mechbay would be empty.

[InspectorG]

Revis Volek, on 18 December 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Really, if my dreams were to come true, once you blew a ST off a Clan mech it would just start a timer until Engine death. Give the Mech 2 minutes to get his work done before his engine goes critical and blows.

I appreciate the sentiment but most Pugs would just go find a corner, powerdown, and die like a wounded animal.

[Destoroyah]

They should just introduce the Light Fusion Engine for IS then increase CXL Side Torso loss penalty to compensate for the LFE's Slightly heavier weight. Then buff the other two engine types so they aren't made irrelavent.

IS XL's should stay as they are but apply say a 10% structure increase to side torso's and a 20% increase to Accel/Decel/and turn rates.

Standards apply about a 25% structure increase to all torso sections. This will apply to both IS and Clan Standards and might make clan battlemechs consider STD engines a viable tanky option versus the CXL.

LFE Pros: Lesser side torso destruction penalties compared to CXL. / More weight saving then STD Engine.
LFE Cons: Slightly less weight saving then CXL and IS XL.

IS XL Pros: Greatest weight savings. / Agility Bonuses.
IS XL Cons: Fragility

IS and Clan STD Pros: Greatest durability benefits.
IS and Clan STD Cons: No weight saving resulting in slower speeds and firepower.

If they did something like this then they could remove or tonedown alot of the structure quirks. Some chassis will still need some consideration just because of their profile and weapon placements like the atlas and cataphat.

Edited by Destoroyah, 18 December 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Vonbach]

Just give IS clan style XL engines that don't instakill the mech when you lose a side torso.
That should go a long way to solving the problem of balance.

[Baulven]

I am for changing the XL at the same time everything gets dequirked for the new skill tree. Give it the 25% worse function 3/12 critical slots and then remove all the baseline quirks.

For now the bandaid tonnage changes can work until February. Theread is no reason to massively rebalnce a system on its way out the door.

[L1f3H4ck]

No, they should introduce new tech for IS, including Light Engines.

[Sixpack]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

If the IS and Clan have a similar baseline (engines not being cXL>>>>>isXL>>STD), and the new system is coming out, start from a blank slate

Trash Tier mechs will still need GodQuirks, but the baseline required quirks can go.
New tech doesn't bring balance. The old trash tech doesn't magically become balanced if something new comes along
Why do people think that?

Because people will just find a new thing to complain about once one perceived imbalance is gone, or has simply been flipped.
There is also the simple fact that things will become obsolete (or already are) with new things being introduced. (hello there SRM 2).

Then there is the problem of the quirks being balanced around the differences in hard points, damage output, manouverability and survivability. Changing IS XLs from the current state will basically mean you throw everything in the trash can and need a complete rework. And once that is done people will complain anyway because things are not identical. That and the LFE becomes obsolete.

This simply looks at people seeing a good enough balance and dreaming about the perfect one. The only way that will ever happen is if everything is identical.