Should Pgi Look At Balance Between Xl Engines?(Is & Clan)(Vote)
#181
Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:44 PM
I'm not going to bother quoting asinine strawman arguments.
Live in the real world. They're different games and it's as simple as that.
No matter how hard you want it, they will never be the same.
So, to all the TT fanboys and lore-mongers: Just stop.
#182
Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:48 PM
Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:
but when you have the XL discussion suddenly we have to Follow TT Rules to a T?
even though they dont Apply here in this FPS being MWO? TT has Engine Crits, MWO doesnt,
so you keep Bringing up TT Engine Crit Rules that Dont Apply to this MechWarrior Game,
...
But a fact is:
In TT, XL engines were balanced to a degree.
Yes, a clan mech wouldn't get blown up by a side torso destruction.
But still, with +10 heat generation, it would be severely crippled if a side torso with an XL engine blew up
(making a Std engine still a good choice for a clanner, over an XL engine)
In MWO however it is:
If an IS mech takes an XL engine, it has a lot of risk to its reward (i.e. the risk, of getting instantly killed as soon as a side torso blows up)
A Clanner however has only reward and no risk connected with his XL engines
With other words, tabletop was more balanced when it comes to XL engines.
MWO balance would profit as well if mechanisms would be implemented that increase the risk of clanners when a side torso with an XL engine is taken out.
Either this, or move away from lore even further, by removing the instakill of IS mechs when a side torso with an XL engine is blown up. Then both sides have all reward and no risk connected to XL engines
Edited by Elessar, 17 December 2016 - 11:52 PM.
#183
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:17 AM
Brandarr Gunnarson, on 17 December 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:
I'm not going to bother quoting asinine strawman arguments.
Live in the real world. They're different games and it's as simple as that.
No matter how hard you want it, they will never be the same.
So, to all the TT fanboys and lore-mongers: Just stop.
So why don't we just bring this to it's logical conclusion by making all Mechs, weapons, and other equipment exactly the same to each other and just "differentiate" between them via "skins", color, and sound effects? I mean, the only things that makes this are Mechwarrior game are the names and general shapes of Mechs, right?
There, 100% balance achieved and we will never ever worry about it again.
Well, at least until someone finds another balance issue to whine and cry about, like teamwork.
Edited by Mystere, 18 December 2016 - 12:27 AM.
#184
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:46 AM
Mystere, on 18 December 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:
So why don't we just bring this to it's logical conclusion by making all Mechs, weapons, and other equipment exactly the same to each other and just "differentiate" between them via "skins", color, and sound effects? I mean, the only things that makes this are Mechwarrior game are the names and general shapes of Mechs, right?
There, 100% balance achieved and we will never ever worry about it again.
Well, at least until someone finds another balance issue to whine and cry about, like teamwork.
You do know that "not same" also doesn't mean "not related", right?
This is more asinine ridiculousness.
#185
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM
#186
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:55 AM
Brandarr Gunnarson, on 18 December 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:
This is more asinine ridiculousness.
My point is that these discussions will never end until everything is exactly the same, or until PGI releases the math/science behind their "balancing" decisions and the entire player base agrees 100%. An asteroid wiping out humanity has a higher chance of happening than that -- the game shutting down permanently excluded of course.
#187
Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:11 AM
Mystere, on 18 December 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:
My point is that these discussions will never end until everything is exactly the same, or until PGI releases the math/science behind their "balancing" decisions and the entire player base agrees 100%. An asteroid wiping out humanity has a higher chance of happening than that -- the game shutting down permanently excluded of course.
Ok, well that's not how it came across.
To this well reasoned response, I say:
We don't need 100% consensus. I'd be satisfied with a super-majority (66%) or even a simple majority (51%).
In fact, we may already have this amongst the player base, just not correlating with PGI's direction.
#188
Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:26 AM
This is pretty bad if you think about the new skill tree (which will add more complexity) coming in febuary.
Balancing out the whole thing under the new paradigm will take another 3-4 years of people constantly complaining and no new tech being added.
#189
Posted 18 December 2016 - 10:04 AM
Andi Nagasia, on 14 December 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:
Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,
Edit- Poll Link-
I voted 'yes'.
IMO:
MWO is at a point where better balance should already be had. Not a jab at PGI, because BT is complex=coverting a TT to a FPS is complex+lack of experience/talent/blah blah blah....
SO:
Buff IS-XL to where St destruction doesnt kill you unless you lose both.
Clan-lore-superiority is had via weight and space savings.
---BUT ALSO BUFF STD ENGINES---
STD should do something like Structure Buff based on a % of tonnage. EX: 100 tonner with STD engine gets 100 CT structure, 75 ST structure. 30 tonner gets 30/23
SINGLE HEAT SINKS give a +5 structure PER SINK. We can haz Tank.
Clans trend to glass cannon that hits first via range with more speed.IS trends tanky and DPS, sometimes better agility. Upcoming Skill Tree would sort this out.
Also: EQUALIZE ALL IS and CLAN WEAPON DAMAGE. (except for ER-LL, keep range, duration = 1 second, damage = 5).
Remove UAC RNG Jams. Double tap = x3 cooldown. *tactical usage*
Clans keep a *SLIGHT* advantage. Easier to balance.
Jingseng, on 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:
True but BT/MWO is not real word.
#190
Posted 18 December 2016 - 10:19 AM
RestosIII, on 14 December 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:
Honestly, this might be extreme. But i think that what happens when you get legged should really be what happens when you get half your engine blown out. 40 kph and sluggish movement.
When you are legged, you should be dragging that sucker at a whopping 25KPH whatever. I feel that legged mechs move a bit to fast and Clan mechs with an engine on the way out really just get a slight slap on the wrist if they are left with most of the weapons or at least the primary ones.
Really, if my dreams were to come true, once you blew a ST off a Clan mech it would just start a timer until Engine death. Give the Mech 2 minutes to get his work done before his engine goes critical and blows.
Edited by Revis Volek, 18 December 2016 - 10:20 AM.
#191
Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:04 AM
Jingseng, on 18 December 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:
Good thing this is a video game
Sixpack, on 18 December 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:
This is pretty bad if you think about the new skill tree (which will add more complexity) coming in febuary.
Balancing out the whole thing under the new paradigm will take another 3-4 years of people constantly complaining and no new tech being added.
If the IS and Clan have a similar baseline (engines not being cXL>>>>>isXL>>STD), and the new system is coming out, start from a blank slate
Trash Tier mechs will still need GodQuirks, but the baseline required quirks can go.
New tech doesn't bring balance. The old trash tech doesn't magically become balanced if something new comes along
Why do people think that?
#193
Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:26 AM
It is important to realize though that lore then becomes irrelevant since in lore clan technology WAS superior and that WAS the starting point that PGI used for determining the initial clan weapon implementations. The entire balance effort since clans were introduced has been trying to tone down the clan tech to achieve something resembling balance between IS and clans. At the present time clans are probably 10 to 50% more effective than IS depending on chassis and loadout with a few outliers where IS mechs may outperform clans.
#195
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:04 PM
Revis Volek, on 18 December 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:
Really, if my dreams were to come true, once you blew a ST off a Clan mech it would just start a timer until Engine death. Give the Mech 2 minutes to get his work done before his engine goes critical and blows.
I appreciate the sentiment but most Pugs would just go find a corner, powerdown, and die like a wounded animal.
#196
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:11 PM
IS XL's should stay as they are but apply say a 10% structure increase to side torso's and a 20% increase to Accel/Decel/and turn rates.
Standards apply about a 25% structure increase to all torso sections. This will apply to both IS and Clan Standards and might make clan battlemechs consider STD engines a viable tanky option versus the CXL.
LFE Pros: Lesser side torso destruction penalties compared to CXL. / More weight saving then STD Engine.
LFE Cons: Slightly less weight saving then CXL and IS XL.
IS XL Pros: Greatest weight savings. / Agility Bonuses.
IS XL Cons: Fragility
IS and Clan STD Pros: Greatest durability benefits.
IS and Clan STD Cons: No weight saving resulting in slower speeds and firepower.
If they did something like this then they could remove or tonedown alot of the structure quirks. Some chassis will still need some consideration just because of their profile and weapon placements like the atlas and cataphat.
Edited by Destoroyah, 18 December 2016 - 12:14 PM.
#197
Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:51 PM
That should go a long way to solving the problem of balance.
#198
Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:01 PM
For now the bandaid tonnage changes can work until February. Theread is no reason to massively rebalnce a system on its way out the door.
#199
Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:13 PM
#200
Posted 18 December 2016 - 03:20 PM
Mcgral18, on 18 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:
Trash Tier mechs will still need GodQuirks, but the baseline required quirks can go.
New tech doesn't bring balance. The old trash tech doesn't magically become balanced if something new comes along
Why do people think that?
Because people will just find a new thing to complain about once one perceived imbalance is gone, or has simply been flipped.
There is also the simple fact that things will become obsolete (or already are) with new things being introduced. (hello there SRM 2).
Then there is the problem of the quirks being balanced around the differences in hard points, damage output, manouverability and survivability. Changing IS XLs from the current state will basically mean you throw everything in the trash can and need a complete rework. And once that is done people will complain anyway because things are not identical. That and the LFE becomes obsolete.
This simply looks at people seeing a good enough balance and dreaming about the perfect one. The only way that will ever happen is if everything is identical.
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