385 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Ok but I am looking at it from a standard engine point of view.

That makes the comparison worse for the IS side.

[Y E O N N E]

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Ok but I am looking at it from a standard engine point of view.

Then you are looking at it from an untenable position. The STD engine cripples you in terms of speed, available firepower (damage), quality of that available firepower (i.e. range), heat efficiency,

If you buff things outside of the STD engine to make them good with the STD engine, then you make them incredibly OP when run on an XL that allows more guns, better guns, more cooling, more speed.

[Johnny Z]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Then you are looking at it from an untenable position. The STD engine cripples you in terms of speed, available firepower (damage), quality of that available firepower (i.e. range), heat efficiency,

If you buff things outside of the STD engine to make them good with the STD engine, then you make them incredibly OP when run on an XL that allows more guns, better guns, more cooling, more speed.

Not true an Inner Sphere mech with a standard can fit more weapons and equipment even than an Clantech XL can.(not counting Clanetech smaller equipment sizes) The downside is being very slow. A standard frees up a lot of space and a slow engine a lot of weight. Yep the downside is being very slow. Almost sim like speeds.

There are Inner Sphere mechs that can beat a Kodiak in a stare down but only if the Kodiak feels like coming into range and with its speed that wont happen if possible.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 07:41 PM.

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 16 December 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

You're using a different definition of equal than most other people are. You're assuming that "equal" means that IS weapon A does 3.0 DPS and the Clan version also does 3.0 DPS or something like that.

Highlighting differences so that one faction is good at X while the other faction is good at Y still means that they're equal in their overall value or chance of winning.

Actually, I am implying/using the word "equivalent", not "equal". As I said in another thread, use of the latter just muddles the discussion on such issues. It's just the wrong word to use.

Andi Nagasia, on 16 December 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

@Lightsfoot,
PGI has changed lore, and doesnt Implement all lore,
ADR Flamer for example,

The ADR is a bad example. Players demanded that the flamer be removable and PGI just obliged to silence them.

Edited by Mystere, 16 December 2016 - 07:47 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Not true an Inner Sphere mech with a standard can fit more weapons and equipment even than an Clantech XL can.(not counting Clanetech smaller equipment sizes) The downside is being very slow. A standard frees up a lot of space and a slow engine a lot of weight. Yep the downside is being very slow. Almost sim like speeds.

It can't, though. You either A.) run out of hardpoints or B.) have failed to account for the extra damage dealt by the Clan equipment at greater range. It doesn't matter if I can fit 6 lasers to his four if his four are more potent than my six, now does it?

And even if it did, what about the Clan BattleMechs which can similarly optimize their cXL engine rating so they have more free tons and space than you do on your slow STD engine? My original two points about why Clans are better remain applicable.

Really, if you are choosing to ignore the option that provides superior total performance (isXL) even with its drawbacks, that's on you. It sucks that the STD engine is terrible, and I do agree that the STD engine needs to provide some sort of buff to make it a worthwhile option, but it's pretty much destined to always be second-fiddle to the XL.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

This kind of thing I can get behind. I'm not for 10v12, but I like this.

That's ok. Not everybody enjoys (i.e. is crazy enough to want) solving N-dimensional problems on a regular basis.

[Johnny Z]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

It can't, though. You either A.) run out of hardpoints or B.) have failed to account for the extra damage dealt by the Clan equipment at greater range. It doesn't matter if I can fit 6 lasers to his four if his four are more potent than my six, now does it?

And even if it did, what about the Clan BattleMechs which can similarly optimize their cXL engine rating so they have more free tons and space than you do on your slow STD engine? My original two points about why Clans are better remain applicable.

Really, if you are choosing to ignore the option that provides superior total performance (isXL) even with its drawbacks, that's on you. It sucks that the STD engine is terrible, and I do agree that the STD engine needs to provide some sort of buff to make it a worthwhile option, but it's pretty much destined to always be second-fiddle to the XL.

Your not building assault or heavy mechs to often then. The Inner Sphere XL takes up to much space to max out firepower and cooling.

My main point is if the XL engines of both techs were more in line performance wise with the standard it would improve balance and the sim. Even after that, the Inner Sphere engines may need extra durability.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 December 2016 - 07:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 16 December 2016 - 07:50 PM, said:

That's ok. Not everybody enjoys (i.e. is crazy enough to want) solving N-dimensional problems on a regular basis.

Except, I am a systems engineer, so I am crazy enough.

I'm also capable of calling you just as insane for constantly asking for 10v12 and expecting a different result than one that has been dealt the last umpteen million times you tried it.

Johnny Z, on 16 December 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

Your not building assault or heavy mechs to often then. The Inner Sphere XL takes up to much space to max out firepower and cooling.

I dunno, Banshee, Battlemaster, Mauler, and technically even the Atlas would disagree with you. It's just that isXLs explode...so we try not to take them in such big and vulnerable 'Mechs.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Except, I am a systems engineer, so I am crazy enough.

I'm also capable of calling you just as insane for constantly asking for 10v12 and expecting a different result than one that has been dealt the last umpteen million times you tried it.

You may be right. But then again 10vs12 has not yet been done whereas

A_Clan = A_IS, where "A" is some equipment type

has been, repeatedly, and arguably success is still nowhere in sight.


On a more serious note, we -- or rather PGI -- should be pursuing more avenues of balancing via emphasizing the differences between the two. As I have said before, it also gives the side-benefit of adding more variety and flavor to a game that desperately needs it.

Edited by Mystere, 16 December 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 16 December 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

You may be right. But then again 10vs12 has not yet been done whereas

A_Clan = A_IS, where "A" is some equipment type

has been, repeatedly, and arguably success is still nowhere in sight.

I don't think it has. And I don't think anybody ever asked them to.

Quote

On a more serious note, we -- or rather PGI -- should be pursuing more avenues of "different but equivalent" balancing. As I have said before, it gives the side-benefit of adding more variety and flavor to a game that desperately needs it.

Similar to the above, PGI has never even seriously attempted "different but equivalent" even with the equipment. They flat-out refuse to really touch the values on equipment in any meaningful way.

That said, Escort looks like it can be fun. Turrets need to go so Lights can do what is so painfully obviously meant as a role for them: capping the ECM flags. I like it.

[Andi Nagasia]

for my my Balance Solution at this point would be:

make IS & Clan XL engines work the same(survive ST loss)
both take a Penalty when they lose a ST(-30% Everything)

then give All STD Engines Structure Quirks, to their CT/STs,
Lets say 1/10 Engine rating to CT & 1/20 Engine rating to ST,
in this case a 300STD would give +30CT & +15ST Structure,
(this allows STD engines to have a use in MWO)

if & When LFE are finally released,
give them +Structure Quirks, to their CTs 1/20 Engine rating,
this Balanced both Techs and makes STD engines usefull in MWO,

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 December 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

for my my Balance Solution at this point would be:

make IS & Clan XL engines work the same(survive ST loss)
both take a Penalty when they lose a ST(-30% Everything)

then give All STD Engines Structure Quirks, to their CT/STs,
Lets say 1/10 Engine rating to CT & 1/20 Engine rating to ST,
in this case a 300STD would give +30CT & +15ST Structure,
(this allows STD engines to have a use in MWO)

if & When LFE are finally released,
give them +Structure Quirks, to their CTs 1/20 Engine rating,
this Balanced both Techs and makes STD engines usefull in MWO,

This is pretty close to ideal.

I think you could get away with ratio-based penalties for both XL types. That would be -20% for cXL and -25% for isXL. The 5% difference is marginal enough that it's really just "flavor".

As for LFE, if/when it's introduced, I'd want to tweak it to fit this game. Specifically, I'd like to see it use only 1 crit slot in each ST and get a ratio-based penalty (same as XLs) on ST loss. That would be -12.5% penalty.

I would simply leave it at that and reserve all structure buffs for Std. engines.

Under this model, all engines fit in the continuum without overlapping usage/function.

[El Bandito]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 16 December 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

I think you could get away with ratio-based penalties for both XL types. That would be -20% for cXL and -25% for isXL. The 5% difference is marginal enough that it's really just "flavor".

Wait. Why should the bulkier IS XL get heavier penalty? If anything the CXL should have 5% more penalty in exchange for being more compact.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 December 2016 - 08:48 PM.

[Xetelian]

2 Additional Crit slots required AND DEATH on side loss is a huge disadvantage.


If they wont normalize the XL with the cXL and give them both the ability to live through one torso loss then they need to take EVERY SINGLE IS mech and give it 15+ armor on the side torsos to make the XL not such a huge risk against mechs that always have a cXL engine.

Edited by Xetelian, 16 December 2016 - 08:51 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

El Bandito, on 16 December 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Wait. Why should the bulkier IS XL get heavier penalty? If anything the CXL should have 5% more penalty in exchange for being more compact.

I'm not opposed to that, actually.

I just suggest it that way to: 1) appease those that still want Clantech to have the appearance of superiority and 2) that the penalty formula can be applied normally to all engines.

If LFE uses only 1 crit in each ST, as I suggested, it also fits this nicely.

The formula I'm using is -1(x/y) = penalty, where X is the number of crits lost on ST loss and Y is the total number of crits used by the engine.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 16 December 2016 - 09:07 PM.

[RuptorJoB]

Make STD tankier on the IS side.

Add a "20 or 30 seconds" timer on IS XL a side torso loss before engine collapses.

Profit.

[Lykaon]

Rushmoar, on 16 December 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

I would love to see that when an IS XL engine losses a side torso, your legs stop moving. You can still torso twist and shoot but your legs are frozen in place.

Or treat it as if one was legged and had a top speed of 40kph and you would run hotter too.
Just a thought.

The question is why? why a stiffer penalty for I.S. XL engines? why not the same penalties for both?

If the thought is "clan tech must be better" it already is. The clan XL is two thirds the size and is paired with other technologies that save weight and are also more compact than I.S. counterparts.

Let's build a mech ...

Clan mech with endo steel ferro fibrious armor three external double heatsinks and an XL engine.

24 crits used of the 47(ish) mech crit slots available. we now have 23 crit slots left to mount weapons.

Inner Sphere mech with endo steel ferro fibrous three external doubles and an XL engine.

43 crit slots used of the 47(ish) mech crit slots availbe.We now have 4 crit slots left to mount weapons.

The clan mech has space for a Ultra AC20 with 4 tons ammo 2 ER large lasers 4 ER mediums a TC 1 and 2 more double heatsinks.

The Inner sphere mech has space for 4 medium lasers...enjoy.

Edited by Lykaon, 17 December 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

for now lets just look at XL balance, not that those other things arnt important,
but lets just focus on the Topic at hand, should XL Engines(IS and Clan) be looked at?

personally i feel its the XL Engine Balance that is stopping Clan from getting Meaning full Quirks,
and until Clan mechs get meaning ful Quirks it will always be SCRs TBRs and KDKs,
because nothing else has Quirks to set them aparts as Individual Mechs,

[Van Hoven]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

for now lets just look at XL balance, not that those other things arnt important,
but lets just focus on the Topic at hand, should XL Engines(IS and Clan) be looked at?

personally i feel its the XL Engine Balance that is stopping Clan from getting Meaning full Quirks,
and until Clan mechs get meaning ful Quirks it will always be SCRs TBRs and KDKs,
because nothing else has Quirks to set them aparts as Individual Mechs,

Unlock endo/ferro for omnis would be an easy change, much better then giving quirks IMHO. Since the mainly used mechs still have endo and ferro it would only bring diversity to the field.

But also, give mechs at the lower end of their weightclass base line quirks for IS and Clan equally. I really does not like quirks on an individual level, it makes the game confusing and harder to get into.

Still, some mechs with bad geometry and weapon hardpoints should get SOME quirks to make up for that disadvantage.

And again I'm all for equalizing IS and Clan xl Engines. It has it flaws as others pointed out, sure. But it's an easy to implement, easy for everyone to understand fix. And tbh, this game does need more easy solutions you aren't required to look up at the forums to understand.

[AEgg]

"All weapons do 125% damage when running an XL engine in a Battlemech. You die from ST loss. (IS and Clan)"

"Omnis survive ST loss (IS and Clan, STD or XL)"

"Remove all structure quirks (except for terrible chassis like the Dragon)"

"STD engines give bonus structure"

Doesn't that solve the problem? And it's easy to understand and easy to implement. You can shuffle the numbers around of course, but it's such an obvious solution. The IS XL needs to be better, because it has a bigger downside. What easier way is there than more damage? More speed or less weight would be better thematically, but they both have implementation problems.